A Way to Give Ashe More Appeal in the Meta

Lavaniel··10 votes·10,078 views
ashe the frost archer by magicnaanavi-d6whpb4

Hello! As an Ashe main, I am always struggling to try to get the upper hand against all the other ADCs in a meta where everyone and anyone out damages you, dodges everything you throw at them, and has no fear in jumping in on you. I'm not complaining Ashe is unplayable. She certainly is. But what I want to do is give other ADCs with massive steroids and natural large amounts of damage (Draven) to have a reason NOT to go down on Ashe.

Her kit in general is pretty basic. Many times I consider it similar with Jinx--with the Q changing the auto-attack in some way, the W a movement speed slow, and the ultimate is a targeted across-map skill shot. However, when you compare Ashe and Jinx, it is clear that Jinx is superior.

If you land on Jinx's E, you are rooted in that area. You are forced to soak up damage while Jinx's auto-attacks increasingly get faster. Her W keeps you locked into the fight, and after wasting a flash and heal, you are finished off by a rocket.

If you are hit by Ashe's arrow, you stunned (depending where you are) for a second or two or less. Then you may be critted for about 200, depending on the time of the game. Then Ashe slows you by ~25%, and doing mediocre damage. Then Jinx turns around and kills the squishy Jinx and darts off like a rocket herself away from Ashe's torment.

To be similar champions kit-wise, what went wrong here?

That's right. Ashe has two abilities that neither "root" or "stun" nor do damage. Her Q and E. How to fix that? Well I have a few ideas.


Frostshot: TOGGLE: Ashe enchants her basic attacks with ice, Slow icon slowing her targets for 2 seconds. SLOW: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35%. 8 Mana per shot.

Here are a few new "passives" to give frost shot a new role in Ashe's kit.

FROST ARCHER'S FURY: As Ashe attacks an enemy champion, she shows her increasing finesse and mastery with Avarosa's bow and applies a stack of FROST ARCHER'S FURY to the target up to a maximum of five stacks. Each stack adds 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 magic damage to each auto attack, maxing up to 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 extra damage auto attack.

With the FAF passive, it gives reasons for people not to mess with Ashe one on one. The amount of magic damage done can be easily resisted on by typical MR items, and it shouldn't make Ashe the incredible lane bully as most champions who have steroids will easily out damage her if Ashe becomes too aggressive. This damage, like Ashe's Q, can be blocked by Morgana's infamous spell shield. The only problem is that the amount of extra damage done may be too much for the amount of early game slow she has, and may need to be adjusted.

MARK OF THE FROST ARCHER: When Frostshot is toggled, Ashe shows her prowess with the bow and sends each arrow at a precise and deadly location at an enemy, dodging 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10% of their armor.

MotFA will give Ashe a heads up against champions like Leona and Braum, who can often go on her without any consequence. This could make her fit well against tanks and act a lot like Vayne but with without an easy escape or condemn.


Now here's an idea for Ashe's E that could make her seem more appealing. I think FAF would suffice on Ashe, but here's another idea:

PASSIVE: Ashe gains 3 bonus gold each time she kills a unit or destroys a structure.

ADDITIONAL PASSIVE: SAFE PASSAGE: Ashe is always on the run away from danger, even assassins who threaten her. While hawkshot is not on cool, Ashe gains an additional 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10% movement speed.

ACTIVE: Ashe animates a hawk to scout for her, granting sight for 2 seconds as it flies towards a target location. Hawkshot grants a 1000-radius area of sight for 5 seconds when it reaches its destination. The sight extends into brushes.

This could give Ashe some great escape but could leave her at a potentiality of being able to poke without consequence. Should be tested with care.


These are some ideas I hope could encourage Riot to take a look at Ashe and bring her to look eye-in-eye with other ADCs who often run over her. My intentions have not been to whine about her being "un-viable", but in hopes that one day Ashe can be picked and nobody with type in chat: "EW ASHE NO DMG, GG, AFK".

Thank you for reading, and please respond!

"It is our duty to speak of unity, here among the ruins of our past. Now our people stand divided, torn apart by ancient hatreds. Brothers and sisters, our enemy is not our neighbor. Our enemy is a land without law and a long winter's night. It is hunger, poverty, desperation and chaos. Look around you, these monuments from a bygone age, each older and grander than anything wrought by our hands. These are the works of a united Freljord, a fractured land that we can repair. From these ruins, we can raise a great nation. We are the people of the Freljord, and this land belongs to us all." -Ashe

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2014/198/4/9/ashe_by_wikimia-d6n28cs.jpg

56 Comments

KnivingDude7 votes

Or how about making Frost Arrows not only slow Movement Speed, but Dash/Gapclosing spell animations as well?

Lavaniel5 votes

{quoted}

Or how about making Frost Arrows not only slow Movement Speed, but Dash/Gapclosing spell animations as well?

Interesting! That would make it hard to engage on her and negate Ashe's weakness of no gap closer!

RoyaiChaos1 votes

This would just start the mobility creep all over again. She was the reason people started getting dashes/gap closers in the first place.

Decrit5 votes

I belive that in any case mark of the frost archer is the worst: we have already armor pen, armor pen% and with that tanks would feel only more miserable, plus it would only enforce buying brutalizer on her early. Safe passage has a good concept but not quite the right execution, i would really love to see an effect like an enhanced perception passive while it is not in cooldown, rather a flat mov speed boost. sure, is not a mobility steroid, but i prefer lots more. The only thing left is frost archer fury: i like it because it's s imple and it' s a ramping damage, but the problem is that it forced enemies too into a fight where she will probably win on the long run. On the other end damage takes time to ramp, so the enemy has time to react. However, i would propose a little change on the fury: make it a toggle like Jinx, since you put her out: if toggled she deals damage, byt the enemy is not slowed, else if it is toggled the damage is not dealt ( or at least is dealt but does not ramp) and consumes previous stacks of fury, slowing the enemy based on the stacks. Also in any case make it stack with ad too, else the only viable build would become as.

Lavaniel1 votes

{quoted}

I belive that in any case mark of the frost archer is the worst: we have already armor pen, armor pen% and with that tanks would feel only more miserable, plus it would only enforce buying brutalizer on her early. Safe passage has a good concept but not quite the right execution, i would really love to see an effect like an enhanced perception passive while it is not in cooldown, rather a flat mov speed boost. sure, is not a mobility steroid, but i prefer lots more. The only thing left is frost archer fury: i like it because it's s imple and it' s a ramping damage, but the problem is that it forced enemies too into a fight where she will probably win on the long run. On the other end damage takes time to ramp, so the enemy has time to react. However, i would propose a little change on the fury: make it a toggle like Jinx, since you put her out: if toggled she deals damage, byt the enemy is not slowed, else if it is toggled the damage is not dealt ( or at least is dealt but does not ramp) and consumes previous stacks of fury, slowing the enemy based on the stacks. Also in any case make it stack with ad too, else the only viable build would become as.

Yeah, they were just ideas. I wish Riot would look into her and let her become balanced with other ADCs.

Decrit1 votes

I got that ;) nice post tho

Lavaniel1 votes

Thanks! Thanks for everyone replying. Ashe means a lot to me!

Galewings5 votes

You know what would make Ashe better?

Swapping her passive with Talon's.

Lavaniel1 votes

You know, that's actually not a bad idea. Upvoted!

Fuaztin4 votes

Where's the all of the above? I'd say a full rework is in order. The only thing ashe has going is the initiate and that's only after I.E and shiv. We could at least make frost arrows good enough to kite melee with but that would never work because 7/10 champs in your game will have a dash anyway. We could always make frost arrows last longer. But that would be OP now wouldn't it?

KnivingDude2 votes

FaF is a nice Acronym I can get used to. =D

Lavaniel2 votes

If any of you think Ashe simply needs a kit overhaul, just like the post and like this comment. LET US BRING ATTENTION TO ASHE, THE FROST ARCHER!

KnivingDude2 votes

Some people might argue that she should be where she is because she is a low IP cost champ. Rebuttals?

Lavaniel3 votes

But doesn't that bring into question the integrity of the game? Riot makes sure there is no skin-vantage, so that the person with the Spiritguard Udyr can't stop a classic Garen just because Garen didn't buy a skin. Ashe is 450 IP because her kit is rather easy to pick up on, and she's been out for a very long time. Jinx has a similar kit but has been out a lot less shorter amount of time than Ashe. That's like saying Garen is horrible, awful, and terrible but Darius on the other hand, is so expensive freelo top laner who everyone must buy because more expensive champions need to have the premium, most damage kits. There's my rebuttals.

RoyaiChaos1 votes

I don't see how this has anything to do with skins.

Rock Rockburgh3 votes

Why does being a low-cost champion mean that she should be weak? Nominally, every champion should be equally viable, if only situationally. If they aren't, what's the point of having them in the game?

Lavaniel1 votes

True.

MEMEME6702 votes

You compare her to jinx, and yet fail to mention that Ashe has insane initiation potential, which is probably the biggest reason she is picked.

If you wanted Ashe to get buffed (especially in the ways you're suggesting). They'd have to nerf her ult.

Would you be okay with that?

Lavaniel2 votes

Given that Ashe's ult stun duration is only as long as the distance to travel, it needs no further adjustments. Unless your suggesting TPAshe. Jinx's rocket can be fired point-blank and sees no damage debuff for that--only doing its damage based on the amount of health missing.

MEMEME6702 votes

Jinx's rocket fired point blank does 50% of the base damage as one that travels for 1 second or more. So it loses quite a bit of damage.

Also, the reason they would have to nerf the arrow is that it's one of the best skills in the game. At any time, anywhere, an enemy can suddenly lose all control of their character for up to 3 seconds, which will usually mean they die.

Not only is this INSANE in lane phase if you can hit it, it also allows you to start every fight off with an advantage in late game, which is quite big as well.

This is why she can't have extremely high damage, or mobility.

Lavaniel1 votes

But then she's only good for being back at the base, and hoping to hit an arrow, and with no help to her team at all. No. And also, your information on Jinx's rocket is incorrect.

"ACTIVE: Jinx fires a rocket that travels in a line, exploding on a 225-range area around the first enemy champion hit. The primary target of the explosion takes full damage, while nearby enemies take 80% of the total damage. Enemies caught in the explosion take physical damage equal to a base amount, plus a percentage of their missing health (max. 300 vs. minions and monsters). The base amount of damage increases by 1% per 15 unit the rocket travels over the first second, for a maximum of 100% bonus damage (200% total damage), and the missing health component is individually taken by the targets." SOURCE: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Jinx.

I'm going to question your credibility on this subject because it seems like you don't understand why Ashe needs to be able to be with her team at any moment in the game and why her arrow doesn't need to be touched at all. Here is Ashe's Enchanted Crystal Arrow tooltip:

Ashe fires a giant arrow in a straight line. If it hits an enemy champion, it will deal magic damage and Stun icon stun that champion for 1-3.5 second(s), based on the distance the arrow traveled. Additionally, enemies within a 250-radius of the impact take half the damage and are Slow icon slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

SOURCE: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ashe.

So please, before you argue a point about balancing, please take into consideration your data. Ashe needs some extra damage, especially early game, because Jinx's rockets have an increasing range as she upgrades, and deal 10% of her total AD. Jinx's kit is built to completely wreck ADCs like Sivir and Ashe who don't have the ability to fight back because their kits are old and outdated.

"TOGGLE ― FISHBONES: Jinx, at the cost of 20 mana per attack, gains bonus attack range, aswell as dealing 10% AD bonus damage and making her basic attacks splash. The splash deals full damage to all enemies in a 150-radius area, and the bonus damage to her target and the splash damage both scale additively with critical strikes."

Also--your a very high elo, but you haven't taken Ashe into a Ranked game recently. Just try it. I'm sure you'll find the meta from this season to be unfavorable to Ashe.

MEMEME6702 votes

But then she's only good for being back at the base, and hoping to hit an arrow, and with no help to her team at all. No.

No. She is good for vision control, some poke, a solid amount of kiting, and the arrow (which is engage//disengage//pick all in one).

She still can and does have damage, it just can't really compare to the likes of Draven or Jinx.

She can't afford to have any mobility because there's no acceptable amount to give her. Too little and it's unnoticable (even if very strong, see old Sona E, Janna global passive). Too much and she's unbeatable by any melee. The thing is, with Ashe too much is very low on the relative scale, because of her Q and W.

And also, your information on Jinx's rocket is incorrect.

No, it's not. The base damage starts at X, and increases to 2X over 1500 units. Wether you want to call X 50% and 2X 100%, or X 100% and 2X 200% isn't of any concern, because we aren't talking with concrete numbers.

I'm skipping a paragraph here not to try and ignore your point, but because it seems like an introduction to the next one.

So please, before you argue a point about balancing, please take into consideration your data. Ashe needs some extra damage, especially early game, because Jinx's rockets have an increasing range as she upgrades, and deal 10% of her total AD. Jinx's kit is built to completely wreck ADCs like Sivir and Ashe who don't have the ability to fight back because their kits are old and outdated.

Okay so, firstly you gotta understand, Sivir is quite strong at the moment. Winrate isn't everything, but she has the highest winrate of all adcs in solo queue, and the second highest winrate in the game. That can't mean she's weak, or 'old and outdated'. (Given that she has reasonable popularity, which she does. Source

However, this doesn't really address Ashe. (Although it does say you may wish to reevaluate how you're judging some champions.)

The thing is, you can't compare ANY two champions in a 1-1 way like this. It will never work. Champions are designed to do different things, feel//play different, and most of all be different. What this means is some champions will have things that are strictly better than others (Corki's passive vs Cait's passive) because other parts of the kit make up for that, or even the base stats.

Ashe can do many things Jinx can't, even without considering arrow. She can scout a long distance. She can kite someone like warwick or braum effectively on her own, forever. She can wear the enemy team down (e.g. while sieging) while also slowing them, which makes it difficult for them to engage.

Also--your a very high elo, but you haven't taken Ashe into a Ranked game recently. Just try it. I'm sure you'll find the meta from this season to be unfavorable to Ashe.

I'm not saying she's a strong solo queue pick or good in the meta. As a champion, I think she is fine. She could maybe use a visual update and possibly a small rework to balance some things out (make e feel useful, remove Volley's obnoxiousness and in return give her a real steroid or something). But balance wise she is fine. Not perfect, but not insanely weak. It is difficult to use her full potential if you aren't in a premade though.

(Also, while I am high elo, I main support. I wouldn't do great with Ashe simply because I don't play adc.)

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

volley "obnoxious"?

are we calling every single poke skill in this game "obnoxious" now?

MEMEME6702 votes

At level five, Volley has a base 4 sec CD, longer range than ezreal Q, hits over a wide radius, and slows.

So, it's spammable, extremely long range, very wide, does very solid damage, and applies CC. I'm quite willing to call that obnoxious.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

i don't get these kind of things honestly...Ashe is a poke/initiator, it's quite obvious that she should have a solid poke

i find a Graves oneshotting you simply by pressing R+Q and praying the RNG Gods for a random crit to finish you off way more obnoxious honestly

MEMEME6701 votes

Graves has to take risks to do that, or catch you alone.

Ashe can volley while being insanely safe. That's the difference.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

yeah, that's the definition of "poke": doing damage while being safe

it's a low risk low reward strategy: it's nothing new and it's been in this game since beta, i don't know why we are suddenly calling it "obnoxious" now

i'd rather play vs S4 Nida AP pre-rework than S3 Ahri all day long

MEMEME6701 votes

Sure. But most poke in the game is either very easy to dodge, (nida) on a long cooldown (jayce), or does low damage. Volley doesn't really have any of these downsides, and isn't really a skill you need to think about using.

Is a guy in range and not behind minions? Shoot it.

That's why I called it obnoxious.

Lavaniel1 votes

Then I would consider Leona's E about the most obnoxious thing in this game.

Are there minions in front of you? No matter.

Troll face appears over Leona's face

MEMEME6701 votes

It's somewhat obnoxious, sure.

However, it's not low cd, doesn't have a large range, and is quite thin.

Darth Pixy Misa2 votes

Try AP Ashe, while she is weak early, once she gets CDR and AP she wins all the team fights with Frost Arrow. AP Ashe with a 1/4 ad/ap ratio works and is fun to use.

Critkeeper2 votes

How about if hawkshot worked like lissandra claw, in that she can tap it again to teleport to its location.

Keep in mind that hawkshot has a one minute cooldown, so its not like she can spam it. Furthermore it takes quite a long time for it to traverse any real distance because it moves quite slow.

Besides, hawkshot into enchanted crystal arrow into hawkshot double tap to land right in your face just as the enchated crystal arrow smacks you is a cool play that I want to see.

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

How about if hawkshot worked like lissandra claw, in that she can tap it again to teleport to its location.

Keep in mind that hawkshot has a one minute cooldown, so its not like she can spam it. Furthermore it takes quite a long time for it to traverse any real distance because it moves quite slow.

Besides, hawkshot into enchanted crystal arrow into hawkshot double tap to land right in your face just as the enchated crystal arrow smacks you is a cool play that I want to see.

I like that idea. Sounds good. would her E turn into a ranged skill shot?

I think changing her passive to some kind of A-pen (Say 10%, +2% per second up to 50%.) and then changing hawkshot to a ward-type ability (60 second ward with large range), and giving it a "true ice shard" passive thats similar to tristanas AoE passive she would be much stronger in the current meta.

... Or actually, to make her viable in the current meta, we might as well give her a 1000 range point and click flash that can only be used backwards.

The problem with reworking ashe is that shes a marksman/support. Her support is extremely strong, and changing her frost shot completely ruins her support capability.

KnivingDude1 votes

Well, I also suppose that Tristana was a Free-Champ if you liked the facebook page. (Not sure if it's true now). Tristana also has some really good stuff going for her as well so I guess the argument about IP would be null.

So why isn't Riot doing anything about her?

Lavaniel1 votes

Tristana was considered broken, that is until her E was adjusted last patch.

TheKingDodo1 votes

I think Ashe would be pretty godly/OP if her Qs also do AS slow xD

Raptamei1 votes

How about frost shot reduces the range of dashes by the same percentage?

Spookzie1 votes

What about having a stun/root with frost shot? 5 consecutive shots and they are root in place for .75sec. Basically like Nauts passive.

S E X Y B O I1 votes

Sorry, but i have to disagree. Imo you don't choose Ashe against hyper carries, but against melee heavy teams. Ashe is the single best adc kiter in the game (Blue Ez is arguably better, but he isn't an adc).

Saixos1 votes

If I am completely honest, I don't compare Ashe to Jinx at all. The champion that I compare Ashe to the most is Kalista. Ashe's e active is a superior Kali w active, Ashe has a slow, Kalista has a slow, they both have strong engage-type ults, both Kalista and Ashe are primarily autoattacking ADCs who are outdamaged by all the other auto-attacking adcs. But I would agree with you that Ashe is at a disadvantage in the current meta, she is primarily a utility ADC and lacks the mobility needed to avoid getting killed, and the damage needed to kill.

I don't think that any of those 3 would work well as a passive for Ashe, I think that even with those she would still be underwhelming.

The question is, why would you pick Ashe? Why not another ADC, why Ashe? The current answer would be that your team has a lot of damage already, and needs some more utility, and Ashe can provide that. Thus I don't really think that giving her more damage should be the solution. I would rather go for giving her a tad stronger utility/giving her a bit more mobility so that she can provide her team with utility while staying safe more easily. The concern would be that this may make her played as a support rather than an ADC, but I think allowing her to play both is a good thing.

One thing that could possibly be done that would allow her to combat enemy onhit ADCs easier and be useful in a teamfight would be to let her q active slow enemy attack speed in addition to enemy movement speed.

We could play on her role of the "Queen" and give her a new passive which benefits her when she's with her teammates, like the opposite of irelia's passive. Drawing further on this, we could add some interactivity to it and have her allied minions prioritize enemy champions when Ashe attacks them in addition to when Ashe is attacked, which could result in some very interesting laning mind-games, as Ashe can force her minions to target an enemy champion and chase them into a bush for a few seconds.

What I would probably want to do to her E is reveal any stealthed units in the area in addition to her vision granted. This would mean that she can also use her E to prepare ganks for her team by scouting wards, reveal enemy stealthed champions in teamfights, and get rid of masses of Teemo shrooms. Imagine seeing Teemo being chosen and having your team support your choice of Ashe due to her ability to kill Teemo's shrooms.

I'm not too sure what to do with Ashe tbh, but I don't think she's that far from being viable. If you were to allow Ashe to attack while moving (not like kalista's jumps, simply autoattacks while her legs move her wherever) then she would immediately become viable IMO. She's not weak, she's just...unique.

Terff1 votes

I personally think shes like varus, utility adc with no escape and hard cc ultis

Pìkachu1 votes

Ashe is fine the way she is. I got to plat with her this season just for her being herself.

Lavaniel1 votes

My point still exists because you only took her 29 games last season. Which isn't bad, your W/L ratio is def. not terrible with her. I just want to make her a pick that people are a little weary to bounce on.

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

My point still exists because you only took her 29 games last season. Which isn't bad, your W/L ratio is def. not terrible with her. I just want to make her a pick that people are a little weary to bounce on.

Then you change her passive and her E. Almost every "fix ashe" thread completely forgets that ashe is a stellar support, not just an ADC. The ONLY problems ashe has is a useless passive and a very low-tier utility E. those should really be the only places you should look at to change; her Q is one of the most powerful sustained CC tools in the game (hell, its really the only sustained CC tool), her W is a 1.0 total AD AoE slow, and her R is the single best engage/disengage ult in the game (Debatable, but it has a rather low cooldown, high base damage, AND it can come from anywhere on the map, being a global line shot that ignores terrain.)

Hizsoo1 votes

I'm pretty confident that what Ashe can do when you have a pretty good front line is usually enough. She is not designed for extended 1vs1 trades, but she can stay on the edge of others range with her slow and possibly with the movement speed from any Zeal item and furor enchantment. Her W rather means that she can hit multiple enemies for basic attack damage at the same time. If you made someone have an inefficient damage uptime, you had good positioning and nobody messes you up with it, you already did a good job. Her W also have a 4s cooldown at max rank, so sometimes I builditem 3078 on her to improve on the lack of damage. The mana regen of Jinx is far more superior, so you can ask for that stat to be looked at or you can just grab a flask. If my team already have a lot of damage (a fed Nasus or whatever happened), a few times I have builtitem 3085 withitem 3071 and it usually worked out pretty well. If nobody can handle something usually there are big problems coming out of it. Ashe have other tools to use. They are might not be good in some situations, but she really don't need what you described.

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

As a Sejuani main, leave Ashe alone :D

RoyaiChaos1 votes

Ashe doesn't need buffs, she needs changes. If any of these get into the game she would need nerfs to compensate. Anyways, definitely no on safe passage because I can't imagine anyone using the active anymore.

19 19 191 votes

I find it funny how this thread has down voted so quicjky

Lavaniel1 votes

That's because high elo people don't understand change. Had like 4 up votes anyways.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

If there's anything I would change on Ashe, it's either her passive or her E active. Maybe make it so her E reveals a slightly smaller area than it does live but also reveals that area for say... 10 seconds and increases by 5 seconds per rank for a max of 30 (Half the duration of a trinket ward). My issue with the current Hawkshot is that it's only useful if you've predicted a gank just as the ganker is coming or if you already know or think you know where the enemy is and just want to confirm it. Having it act like a ward would help you keep vision on an area for ganks, dragon steals, or deter that thresh or blitz from hiding in a bush.

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