Why are Mages damage getting lowered and Tank damage are getting buffed?

taleofsonata·Apr 12, 2019·8 votes·5,550 views

All of those Tank damage buff on the PBE fix nothing about tanks, and all those damage nerfs to Mages makes no sense.

Mages are a Carry Role not a Support Role,

Some of those buff really contradict themself and makes no sense.

Mage AP ratio and base damage are almost equal to enchanter supports, Tanks AP ratio and base damage are looking similar to old Gragas Q 100% AP ratio and 300 base damage lol.

I was reading at Twitter and Hashinshin was complaining about tank being anti-carry, that they stop a champion from carrying.

The more I think about it and the more I think that from that statement Tank should be Anti-Carry, thats the direction to take for Tanks.

Tank and enchanters are suppose to be Anti-Carry type of champion or supporting Carry.

Mages and ADC are suppose to be Damage Carry type of classes.

And for some reason Bruiser are the class that has no respect for other class after laning phase and just kills anything they touches. Even though their role are suppose to be the splitpush carry.

Jungler are the objective control carry.

51 Comments

Moody PApr 12, 20196 votes

Because damage buffs are the best soloQ buffs a tank could get; tankiness buffs really don't affect performance as much as youd like it to below Diamond.

Iota ThetaApr 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JzMXuH0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-12T10:28:47.324+0000)

Because damage buffs are the best soloQ buffs a tank could get; tankiness buffs really don't affect performance as much as youd like it to below Diamond.

Pretty much this. Riot’s been wanting to try and make tanks better in solo without going out of control in proplay. This apparently is the main way to do. Unfortunately, it further blurs the line between tanks and fighters.

I greatly dislike that that’s how they want to rebalance tanks, and disagree that it’ll make things better. But I’m just one voice. I’ll keep saying it’s a bad idea, but I likely won’t get anywhere.

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

heres an idea, Base tenacity for tanks, and change most Knockup cc to being only .5 seconds THEN the rest of the cc be a stun. This will buff tanks, as they will have built in cc reduction, and it buffs tenacity, and it removes all the BS 65 seconds of literally unreducable cc. it buffs cleanse Most importantly it allows for longer duration basic cc spells for people like shaco box/xerath stun/braum so on.

This way tanks get more cc (reducible cc but cc) that they can be balanced around and people are more likely to go tenacity runes instead of damage runes nerfing damage in the process which ALSO buffs tankiness. This makes glass cannons feel more like glass cannons instead of drain tanks.

LhuhzApr 12, 20191 votes

You are right, majority of the playerbase plays Tanks as Bruisers, if Riot balances Tanks as pure Tanks they will always suck for the ones complaining

Abibyama IIApr 12, 20191 votes

Everyone wants to be that Shounen Anime main character so tanking is boring and doing big damage is fun

Also, Hello

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

The down votes are real for something so accurate. Being tanky only matters if a high damage champion has the tank stats like mundo or urgot in solo q.

JamareeApr 12, 20194 votes

This place has been begging for mages nerfs tbf.

PopcornBunniApr 12, 20192 votes

Not really no. It's been begging for nerfs to ranged tops and bruisers via conqueror. The only thing hitting mages will do is push them away from midlane assassin land up to top and support to ruin those lanes with even more range top and even more nuke support.

JamareeApr 12, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Not really no. It's been begging for nerfs to ranged tops and bruisers via conqueror. The only thing hitting mages will do is push them away from midlane assassin land up to top and support to ruin those lanes with even more range top and even more nuke support.

Are we really going to act like there aren't post about people whining about "mage superiority."?

We really going to ignore the post literally on hot right now about people complaining about mages top?

PopcornBunniApr 12, 20193 votes

Except that doesn't just apply to mages, but to Teemo Gnar Quinn Vayne Lucian and every other ranged top laner.

All nerfing midlane mages will do is push more of them to top to further ruin the lane.

SaiannaApr 12, 20191 votes

I haven't seen any "whining about mage superiority" threads.

Plenty of threads about assassins, riven, vayne, urgot and hmm few ADCs. Just checked HOT section again in case I missed something, but no. No mage threads.

So maybe it's not the threads, but you?

JamareeApr 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I haven't seen any "whining about mage superiority" threads.

Plenty of threads about assassins, riven, vayne, urgot and hmm few ADCs. Just checked HOT section again in case I missed something, but no. No mage threads.

So maybe it's not the threads, but you?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/5NnEB3QB-mages-make-bot-lane-unenjoyable-to-play?comment=00010002

You blind?

SaiannaApr 13, 20191 votes

Different subforum. I'm using Balance only, didn't think other subforums could have those threads.

Also, i'm not quite sure, but you missed the point of the thread you shared with me. It's kinda like conversation starting with thread being the first line. And when you look at it that way, it loses the whole "mage superiority" whining feel.

Edit: I kinda expected something like vayne/riven threads where players would go into +/- detail why a MAGE (not AP assassin, or AP diver, or on-hit champ) is busted in their opinion. I've seen some of those threads about vladimir some time ago, but nothing lately.

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

Yea i was vs quinn and teemo.

Ahri BakaApr 12, 20193 votes

{quoted}

This place has been begging for mages nerfs tbf.

Hashinshin worshippers yeah

Kinda dumb way to hate a class just because they are ranged

ApexInTheCircleApr 12, 20194 votes

{quoted}

This place has been begging for mages nerfs tbf.

The only nerf mages honestly need is in the penetration department. Which could be solved by having void staff be a stacking MR shred like BC and just slightly buff it's max stack to 45% instead of just 40% right out of the gate.

ADC YuumiApr 12, 20194 votes

Because almost all mages can do a combo to take out a champion 100 - 0. Tanks can't even get people to 80% health.

Damage is needed since the whole meta is damage over utility atm.

Ahri BakaApr 12, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tristana is Mine,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JzMXuH0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-04-12T10:56:32.602+0000)

Because almost all mages can do a combo to take out a champion 100 - 0. Tanks can't even get people to 80% health.

Damage is needed since the whole meta is damage over utility atm.

Mages cant 1 shoot unless are so fed like any class And even if fed , their damage is dodge-ablev, unlike some other class that point click you to death un 2 seconds if they are fed

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

most mages dont 100/0 in league. Thats the problem with them. Most of them deal about 70% to 0 unless fed. This is why mage vs mage wars go to the ones with the easier combo/poke to hit and typically the assasin. Mages head top because the melee champs are easier to repeatedly hit when they have no mobility. The current meta top laners have range/defenses against mages because mages head top.

FSRERApr 12, 20194 votes

Mages did not have counterplay for way too long. As an ex-tank player, I am glad to see that mages get their damage lowered but at the same time sad that tanks are getting damage buff. Tanks, can be destroyed by everything and increasing their damage will do nothing to help them survive. Mages on the other hand, can destroy everything in their path while negating tons of armor very cheapily. Would you like a new boot which would give +18 lethality? Nobody would want that, then why the heck do mages get such power so early. Maybe you don't realise but currently there 3 magic resist items a tank or juggernaut can build, item 3065 item 3001 item 3194 . Those items can all be countered (even if someone builds all 3 of them) by item 3020 item 3135 and item 3165 and those items give other bonuses as well (unlike the armor penetration items).

What I am trying to say, the mage nerf is well deserved and the tank buff is not.

taleofsonataApr 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Mages did not have counterplay for way too long. As an ex-tank player, I am glad to see that mages get their damage lowered but at the same time sad that tanks are getting damage buff. Tanks, can be destroyed by everything and increasing their damage will do nothing to help them survive. Mages on the other hand, can destroy everything in their path while negating tons of armor very cheapily. Would you like a new boot which would give +18 lethality? Nobody would want that, then why the heck do mages get such power so early. Maybe you don't realise but currently there 3 magic resist items a tank or juggernaut can build, . Those items can all be countered (even if someone builds all 3 of them) by and and those items give other bonuses as well (unlike the armor penetration items).

What I am trying to say, the mage nerf is well deserved and the tank buff is not.

Mage always had many pen items, Tanks have the best itemization against Mages, it's just that the itemization is always built at the wrong time. Tanks early are always against an AD champion rarely against AP champion, soo when it was time to build Magic resist it was already too late, mage would already have the pen necessary to destroy them.

Try to do damage to a Mundo with Magic resist items as Ziggs, it's literally impossible. He will kill you before you can get him to 90% hp. Another thing about this is that Tank armor items are utterly garbage vs those Bruisers who bullies them early. They literally need lane advantage to even remotely be viable in the game.

And Mage went from building 1000 AP per games to an abysmal 400-500 AP per games. AP ratio and Base damage significantly lowered, their only form of increase in damage is being able to get Magic pen early on as quick as possible. They went from Strong Mid to Late game to, Strong Early game to Late game.

The reason why AP damage is significantly lowered and AP Pen is higher is that riot doesn't want Mage to start pushing lanes right away but want them to be able to do damage to champions.

SooFr0styApr 12, 20192 votes

You picked mundo in a nave scenario.

That's like me talking about how op tanks are vs adcs using malphite as an example.

Also tanks don't have better itemization towards mages, there are more anti auto attack items in the game then any other type of items.

taleofsonataApr 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You picked mundo in a nave scenario.

That's like me talking about how op tanks are vs adcs using malphite as an example.

Also tanks don't have better itemization towards mages, there are more anti auto attack items in the game then any other type of items.

ok I can pick Maokai for example, I can pick Galio, or any tank who specifically do well against mages, like Ornn, Sejuani, Gragas etc.

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

No mate no, 1 mr item invalidates boots orb AND voidstaff. You wont have true damage if you take boots orb if you fight someone with mr runes. now voidstaff added doesnt even prevent negatron cloak on half the lvl 18 champs. master yi 53.8 mr lvl 18, + 16 mr from runes + 25= 94.8 94.8 x .55= 52.14- 18 - 34.14-15= BOOOM 19.14 which is 65% of the average ranged champs MR. Add in the SMALL bonus pen from the sudden impact for things like fizz and we can get closer to 10, but its still not true damage. So no mr items HARD counter everything other than Void staff pretty hard, its just voidstaff is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOD.

Serika ZeroApr 12, 20194 votes

Probably because ads have 18 lethality on edge of night 18 lethality on yomumu's ghost blade 21 lethality on duskblade.

Meanwhile mages got boots with like 18 pen and oblivion orb with like 18 more magic pen.

And that's it. but but but mages got void staff reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Sure. And ads got last whisper which costs just 1300g. And also black cleaver for more %armor shread.

Geee. Ofc mages got the best pen items!!!!! #sarcasm.

SooFr0styApr 12, 20192 votes

Something something every has scaling armor while most do not have scaling Mr or very low scaling Mr,

Lethality also scales per level so you don't get full amount later.

Also boots are much cheaper

Also edge of night lmao

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

its based on base mr and scaling armor problems. Most adcs end up around 100 armor, and tanks higher. Mages ironically having the least armor. This just makes it really really hard to balance lethality and magic pen. 18 magic pen = about 50 or 60% total magic resistance. 18 lethality = like 12-15%.

Serika ZeroApr 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

its based on base mr and scaling armor problems. Most adcs end up around 100 armor, and tanks higher. Mages ironically having the least armor. This just makes it really really hard to balance lethality and magic pen. 18 magic pen = about 50 or 60% total magic resistance. 18 lethality = like 12-15%.

But a lot of things that have lethality also got a lot of ad. Meaning, the damage they do, the damage which lethality affects is not just the one coming from abilities. Also auto attacks, which got no cool down.

See, that makes the balance even more complicated.

EonslegacyApr 15, 20191 votes

Mate let me explain something. Fizz R does 1k damage, lets factor in resistances now, base mr for champion y is 50 so fizz damage is now 666.66 Now lets say zeds Wq combo does 1k for some reason, base armor for bob is 100, damage is now 500. No matter HOW you change the armor/magic pen on items, Fizz damage per damage will always be higher than Zed. Its not the fact that mages have a lot of pen, its the fact EVERYONE IN LEAGUE has low base mr. Every single champion has less MR than armor at every level. Magic pen isnt the problem, its the fact riot designed the game around auto attacks being already factored into ad champions assumed damage in their burst/kit even when its unwise for them to do so.

Serika ZeroApr 16, 20191 votes

if zed's WQ combo for some reason does 1k damage. He has around 437 bonus ad. With a base damage of 120.8 at lv 18.

Meaning, he would do 550 damage with auto attacks. Mean that, hitting 2Qs from the WQ combo would be like doing 2 auto attacks. And zed's AS at lv 18 is 0.651 (+ 56.1%). This means he can auto attack twice per second.

Now, that's the trick. While Fizz's R did 1k damage. He now has to wait for 70 (no cdr) or 38 seconds (45 cdr) to do that 1k damage again. Meanwhile, Zed does it every fucking second. That's just per your example.

That's why ADs are bonkers broken and absurd. They get strong early game, and have a strong late game presence as well if they can keep their target access. And that's why having a real support, not a Ahri or Graves support matters. As you will need some peal, otherwise you'll die.

So, not even against tanks will AP assassins do better, while their initial burst will most likely be higher (tanks and bruiser having to much hp and resistance), the consistent damage of AD assassins sparkles out even more. And again, that's why there's a difference between AP and AD differences, as well as armor vs mr.

Almost every champion (barring 1-5 exceptions in the 140+ hero roster) have auto attacks that scale with 100% AD. While AP ones rely on their abilities (which are often skill shots).

EonslegacyApr 16, 20191 votes

I agree with most of your points, outside of the peel mechanic, a lot of champions can peel, but even in your example whoever they are peeling for is dead if that combo hits regardless. Lulu will not stop fizz if the R has hit she cant even target him before its all over, and she cant keep her adc alive, and then she becomes useless without the adc. ----That being said, its a damage meta and enchanters are suffering anyway that doesnt prove anything. Alright then who else can be a meta support Tanks, ok why, because they can eat that burst and not die right :D Yea but why are we giving the lowest income roll the roll to face tank damage anyway? Its mainly because they can assist junglers. Thats mainly why tank supports exist, to assist junglers and offer utility. To bad in the 1 shot meta utility doesnt matter if its not anti death utility Taric at least on tanks. I mean nowadays doesnt everyone have utility? supports tanks or not. Isnt everyones kit overloaded rn. If we assume zed has 471 ad, im pretty sure he shoulda went crit chance in your example, and im pretty sure fizz does the same with no items at all, with full ap fizz R alone does 1.2k or more depending on if he went liandrys or not. Cho q can hit 1.7k with the right build every 3.38 seconds so theres that.

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

They have left the game ina way that having damage reduction just makes the person take .5 to 2 extra seconds to kill you. They dont suffer anything for tryna kill you either you just die slightly slowly. The current meta is sustain>survivability, so if you cant just straight up KILL someone then you never will THATS why tanks suck. Think Master Yi vs malphite as the example. If Malph cant kill yi, yi will for sure kill malphite and theirs nothing he can do about it.

EonslegacyApr 15, 20191 votes

Mages have had counterplay for forever, highest counterplay class in the game tbh. The problem is that your forced to have 5 players on your team, and to divide resources between them, so the logical thing to do is have a aoe champion with range and cc that can clip multiple enemies at once JUST SO your OTHER champions can preform their rolls easier. (orianna anyone). Having an extra damage source like zed is almost always worse than just having a ranged stun-bot when you have 3 damage dealers and 1 tank already. Its been the current problem to league for awhile.

SyrileApr 12, 20193 votes

"Some of those buff really contradict themself and makes no sense." Exactly what Riot does in a lot of cases.

Mages are being destroyed because generally they represent tactical thinking and strategy. Such things much be removed from the game in favor of twitch-reflexes and hyper-mobility.

The thing with tanks is that if they buff champions that used to be tanks into having higher damage, the "sing-along" players will come back and say "Hey, look! League of Tanks again!" when they have a tank building full AD or AP and one-shotting everyone.. which is not a tank at all.. but since the champion was once one, that is what the narrative will be.

It is a pretty slick ploy that politicians and game companies use because of a lot of people refuse to use critical thinking skills.

ZeyphelApr 12, 20193 votes

Because it feels better to oneshot while being inmortal than to oneshot while being ranged ...

PopcornBunniApr 12, 20193 votes

Because riot doesn't understand what people mean by "bruisers are ruining the game and tanks need help"

So the natural conclusion is to nerf mages and make tanks into bruisers.

Stone766Apr 12, 20192 votes

Bc mages are overtuned to hell and champs like ahri are able to 1 shot and instantly ult to saftey up to 3 times with no reprocussions

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

Ahri's damage numbers are so low that the fact you got 1 shot was because she was lvl 6 roamed bot landed the charm and pushed R on your level 4 self AFTER being a kill up already. Champs like Fizz Sure they 1 shot, Champs like Ahri do about as much damage as a morgana if she misses her root and only hits the R and the w during the stun. She has low damage. She has low cooldowns and can spam that q, but she has low damage.

Stone766Apr 16, 20191 votes

no. she has high damage and low cooldowns. That is literally why people have issues with ahri, she isn't balanced.

EonslegacyApr 16, 20191 votes

No she has low damage and low cooldowns, its just the rune and item system that rewards hitting spells, not hitting HIGH DAMAGE SPELLS, and it cares not what spells you hit. Ahris bases are low on everything, AND her range is low. Fizz as an assasin has MUCH higher burst, and annie as a mage has much higher burst also along with syndra, malzahar (if you call that burst), zed, leblanc, so on, she isnt known for her massive burst she is know for her charm and dashes. Ahri relies on things like ludens echos 100 base and 10% ratio and or lichbane and or gunblade and or protobelt and or liandrys and or so on, she relies on the damage giving items not her base, her 2 second charm that FORCES players INTO the enemy team is why she isnt balanced. Her E is 1 of 2 spells that makes players go towards the enemy team for a prolonged period of time, the other is threshs Q which stuns him longer than the enemy if they have any tenacity.

TobykachuApr 12, 20191 votes

They're literally buffing the things players hated about tanks during the tank meta. No onecared about tanks living for so long, they cared about the Maokai jumping on top of you and killing you with one and a half rotations of his spells.

Ahri BakaApr 12, 20191 votes

Wait what mage damage nerfs ?

LhuhzApr 12, 20191 votes

Good question, but I guess OP rathers just say on a vague way "mage dmg nerfs" rather than put a clear example

Ahri BakaApr 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Good question, but I guess OP rathers just say on a vague way "mage dmg nerfs" rather than put a clear example

I guess he meant MR items buffs like tank ones and the last Wit's end buff

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

lol wit's end "buff" more like complete rework to be completely insane. its not even the same item type anymore.

ApexInTheCircleApr 12, 20191 votes

Riot logic right there...Tanks are in a bad place.....They're having problems staying alive? What should we do to make them stay alive longer...AHA! GIVE THEM MORE DAMAGE.

Vlada CutApr 12, 20191 votes

So mages like Syndra become tanks and Tanks like Maokai go full AP. :^) Also Lethality Sion my boi.

EonslegacyApr 13, 20191 votes

Mages are typically compared to assassins when balancing them. Assassins lack the tools to end games solo, AND lack team fight power in most cases. Mages are typically safer when pushing towers with people under them, but more risky when alone. Assassins cant just walk up and right click turrets, and when they are alone they dont take them nearly as fast as some ap or adc champions even with full damage builds. What does this mean? Teams have started to use mages and force 5v5s in mid/jg/area ina deathball style meta. This is how they THINK they will fix it by removing some of the mages strengths over the assassins. It wont work but its how they think it will work. --- based on my thoughts. Also the counter play to dps champions is killing them, and tanks cant do that without damage, and most of the time the safest lane to put a squishy dps champion is ironically against the tank come midlate game for that reason. This results in only the highest cc or highest damage tanks being viable at all, and only those that work in death ball meta, so this is how they are tryna fix it. ----also my thoughts. also not gonna work the way they intend.