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Why is wave / lane control over looked?

Ben SwoIo··23 votes·11,027 views

I see so many people that could care less about it. Everything is about damage. "Durr check my end game damage. I played so good I out damaged everyone even though we lost." Do people not care about wave management? Lane pressure? Map pressure? Is everything these days just damage output = good at this game?

I play a lot of Malzahar and I LOVE to control the lane via wave management and tower pressure. I do get kills and deal damage obviously, but the lane control really opens up the map.

  • Their jungler usually starts trying to camp my lane which removes them from the other lanes.
  • The mid laner may try to roam, but it leaves their tower open for free smacks and an easy take.
  • It also creates frustration on my opponents because it seems like all they want to do is engage over and over, which I deny.
  • A lot of times I end up ahead by 20 plus CS in lane and much more later on.

My problem comes when my jungler doesn't like to either help cover my lane if it's open while I'm hitting somewhere else, or if my team gets super aggro and just wants to fight over and over anywhere on the map. That or they don't watch MIA pings (which I spam) and end up feeding. Then I'm labeled as bad and dumb etc.

This might belong in rant but I figured people may need to re-train themselves into understanding the game as a whole instead of looking at it like Call of Duty or Street Fighter ll.

39 Comments

The thigh guy10 votes

Because damage is so high it’s literally the only thing that matters

Linna Excel1 votes

In the early game, particularly before you back the first time, minions are a super high source of damage.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FkrXcAG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-08T20:24:50.133+0000)

In the early game, particularly before you back the first time, minions are a super high source of damage.

That mean nothing when every champion can 100-0 you instantly at level 3.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FkrXcAG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-08T20:28:59.724+0000)

That mean nothing when every champion can 100-0 you instantly at level 3.

Good thing that's not true or we'd have a problem.

Jennifer4208 votes

mainly cause wave controll is too buggy. minions blocking each other, randomly switching targets etc etc

nm10106 votes

Riot ruined wave control with a minion ai change a long time ago. You can still do basic stuff like freeze the wave, but it can just randomly break now. LS and some Korean pro did a video on this over a year ago.

MrFawknSunshine5 votes

cuz that is what the casual player has done to league, it went from a strategy based moba to a mortal combat /halo hybrid and all people want is to do damage and get kills cuz its FUN

the days of actual lane play and wave control/ denial of cs etc has been lost.

Divin1ty1 votes

*Mortal Kombat.

Ben SwoIo3 votes

{quoted}

cuz that is what the casual player has done to league, it went from a strategy based moba to a mortal combat /halo hybrid and all people want is to do damage and get kills cuz its FUN

the days of actual lane play and wave control/ denial of cs etc has been lost.

It's sad, really. The strategy part is what drew me to this game, not the kda / damage output / I can kill you in 0.00000009 seconds without being able to react. I've also noticed a SHIT TON more toxic people being placed on my teams, constantly flaming and calling each other punishable terms. Like holy shit, does Riot just not give a fuck anymore? It's like if you ain't pro you don't matter.

TakaDama1 votes

Funny how both you and the OP mention fighters as I was big into Shoryuken, Dust Loop, and Test Your Might prior to even playing League. And one of the things that pro players emphsize on those sites is knowing fundamentals: it doesn't matter if you can flawlessly perform tiger knee special moves or complex combos if you are losing to somebody just simply throwing you or punishing you with simple combos after blocking or evading your attack.

In other words: fundamentals such as spacing, advantage, etc is how a fighting game player ensures they survive and defeat their opponent, and the combos and other techniques just make that easier.

To put it League terms: the goal is to destroy the Nexus, the fundamentals such as map awareness, lane pressure, wave control, etc help in that way, and the individual kits of the champions makes that all easier.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

cuz that is what the casual player has done to league, it went from a strategy based moba to a mortal combat /halo hybrid and all people want is to do damage and get kills cuz its FUN

the days of actual lane play and wave control/ denial of cs etc has been lost.

Not really. It's only "lost" because people keep not doing it for some crazy reason.

mRiOzQAmos4 votes

That's all people care about the days.

Their damage. Like when that 8/13 AP Gragas out damages everyone but still feeds his ass off you know he's a dog.

Ben SwoIo4 votes

{quoted}

That's all people care about the days.

Their damage. Like when that 8/13 AP Gragas out damages everyone but still feeds his ass off you know he's a dog.

That's one of this big offenders I'm referring to. People who out damage others as a "support" and think that means they played well. It's like okay, how well did you peel the carry(s)? How was the teams vision? Did you deny vision? Did you build to help the team or boost your own stats? It's like holy shit, there's a reason why you lost. So annoying.

Libido3 votes

Why would anyone care about lane managment when you can just one shot your opponent?

Ben SwoIo2 votes

{quoted}

Why would anyone care about lane managment when you can just one shot your opponent?

That's what the gameplay seems like these days. I've been seeing A LOT of the usual suspects ( Pyke Irelia Akali Riven Yuumi Jax ) and more often than not, they get fed and become unstoppable. item 3026 doesn't help either since there's no downside to building this item. It sucks because a lot of times I've seen my top laner (or myself in mid) "shut them down" in regards to CS / farm. Just doesn't seem to matter anymore though as like I said, they proceed to get fed and show off their_ awesome skills_ at the game.

Magnesium141 votes

{quoted}

Why would anyone care about lane managment when you can just one shot your opponent?

Facts

mRiOzQAmos3 votes

I got banned from Hashinshin's chat for telling him to freeze the wave, after he pushed knee deep and got pulled into the turret by his opponent "top lane AP skarner" twice.

Can swear wave control saves lives.

Also some idiots can go 0/2 against a top lane AP Skarner with item 3030.

Ben SwoIo3 votes

{quoted}

I got banned from Hashinshin's chat for telling him to freeze the wave, after he pushed knee deep and got into the turret by his opponent "top lane AP skarner" twice.

Can swear wave control saves lives.

Also some idiots can go 0/2 against a top lane AP Skarner with item 3030.

Rofl, I got banned from Hashinshin's chat too. I went in and asked if I missed the daily feed and I got the ban hammer.

Kazekiba2 votes

lane and wave management is still the most absolutely vital part of the game to the point that coaches and analysts berate and shame players above Plat III for being poor at it.

It's a matter of skill, and probably a large reason I'm in such gutter elo (though I do gain ridiculous LP for wins, so its a matter of playing more) - I cant wrap my brainless, Diagnosed-at-19 mind around the finer details but I try and learn and memorize them

Ragnaveil2 votes

I mean, the real issue is what they did to minions past 15 minutes. Its hard to wave manage period cuz waves just shove in and out instantly, which in soloqueue, where working with a team pre masters + is a prayer, makes it hard to do plays.

Ben SwoIo1 votes

{quoted}

lane and wave management is still the most absolutely vital part of the game to the point that coaches and analysts berate and shame players above Plat III for being poor at it.

It's a matter of skill, and probably a large reason I'm in such gutter elo (though I do gain ridiculous LP for wins, so its a matter of playing more) - I cant wrap my brainless, Diagnosed-at-19 mind around the finer details but I try and learn and memorize them

I'm trying to get better at it myself as I goof up A LOT and put myself in bad spots because of it. I love that aspect of the game, and I feel like the kills / taking towers naturally follow afterwards. Just sucks that a lot of other players look at you like you're not doing anything if your score doesn't show a sexy KDA. It's ridiculous.

enshine2 votes

idk

it's one of the most important skills to have in the game, i think

my micro is ok at best (cancel autos often enough to be shameful) and this video alone got me to plat 1tricking jax lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GBBBo68AZY

Venging Angel2 votes

It's because so many players have overlooked the value of minions and replaced by seeking the quick and instant payback of a kill/assist. (And yes, with Malzahar and other farming champs, you quickly realize how fast and quickly a champ scales once farming is taken seriously.)

NaughtyWord1 votes

{quoted}

I see so many people that could care less about it. Everything is about damage. "Durr check my end game damage. I played so good I out damaged everyone even though we lost." Do people not care about wave management? Lane pressure? Map pressure? Is everything these days just damage output = good at this game?

I play a lot of Malzahar and I LOVE to control the lane via wave management and tower pressure. I do get kills and deal damage obviously, but the lane control really opens up the map.

  • Their jungler usually starts trying to camp my lane which removes them from the other lanes.
  • The mid laner may try to roam, but it leaves their tower open for free smacks and an easy take.
  • It also creates frustration on my opponents because it seems like all they want to do is engage over and over, which I deny.
  • A lot of times I end up ahead by 20 plus CS in lane and much more later on.

My problem comes when my jungler doesn't like to either help cover my lane if it's open while I'm hitting somewhere else, or if my team gets super aggro and just wants to fight over and over anywhere on the map. That or they don't watch MIA pings (which I spam) and end up feeding. Then I'm labeled as bad and dumb etc.

This might belong in rant but I figured people may need to re-train themselves into understanding the game as a whole instead of looking at it like Call of Duty or Street Fighter ll.

A lot of the problems with the current meta are directly the result of a broken jungle. It is a hyper-ganking meta and that causes lots of problems.

Dukues1 votes

As a Malzahar main myself I know what you are saying and feel the same way haha. But sometimes roaming assassins can snowball the game much harder even if they losing out on turret gold and some cs.

I have not really gotten a camp from my jungler in a long time, which kinda sucks. But at the same time when playing malz you don't really have much kill pressure without your ult so it makes sense. I do get camped a lot lately by enemy jungler, but I am ok with it since I have been getting a lot better at staying alive and soaking up the pressure which in a lot of games has allowed my bot & top to get ahead with not having to worry as much about enemy jungler ganking them. Granted I have usually been dying like twice so I need to get better at that, but usually after that I don't die to the ganks anymore. Just hard sometimes depending on enemy jungler. Like you can be full fucking health and then Twitch pops up and even say like an Ahri just needs to hit you with like 1 spell and your dead. Kinda ridiculous but that's what the game has become.

Ben SwoIo2 votes

{quoted}

As a Malzahar main myself I know what you are saying and feel the same way haha. But sometimes roaming assassins can snowball the game much harder even if they losing out on turret gold and some cs.

I have not really gotten a camp from my jungler in a long time, which kinda sucks. But at the same time when playing malz you don't really have much kill pressure without your ult so it makes sense. I do get camped a lot lately by enemy jungler, but I am ok with it since I have been getting a lot better at staying alive and soaking up the pressure which in a lot of games has allowed my bot & top to get ahead with not having to worry as much about enemy jungler ganking them. Granted I have usually been dying like twice so I need to get better at that, but usually after that I don't die to the ganks anymore. Just hard sometimes depending on enemy jungler. Like you can be full fucking health and then Twitch pops up and even say like an Ahri just needs to hit you with like 1 spell and your dead. Kinda ridiculous but that's what the game has become.

Yeah, Ahri really annoys me. I could spend most of the lane dodging her shit but if that charm lands ONE TIME, it's a wrap. There goes any lead I had. I don't think it's just her though, I feel the same about most champs nowadays, which sucks. It shouldn't be insta death.

Dukues2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Ahri really annoys me. I could spend most of the lane dodging her shit but if that charm lands ONE TIME, it's a wrap. There goes any lead I had. I don't think it's just her though, I feel the same about most champs nowadays, which sucks. It shouldn't be insta death.

Ugg yea pretty much any "assassin" especially. God forbid I actually try to like poke a Katarina after her q lands far away from me. summoner 14 really doesn't help though..... just so much damage and such a low cooldown it's pretty much an auto kill nowadays to just all in someone when it up and as long as you land your shit it's a guaranteed kill.

I accidentally took summoner 14 mid as Malz one game and it actually didn't go too bad lol. Legit just ignite plus full ult & combo was instant kill. Can't remember what the match up was.

FakeGravity1 votes

honestly at my level of play lane control is just not a huge factor, im a support main and any time i play any other role i know i will loss CC and do horrible, my only focus is not to feed and let myself get carry.

i was playing gnar top against camille, she had 40 cs more than me so i didnt even bother fighting her, i took my chance to tp bot, help my bot lane take two kills and let them carry from them on, camille couldnt really roam away because im still gnar so i can push and make her loss that lead over me but at the same time she didnt even try to make plays around, this is the issue with some ppl they get a lead but forget there are other 4 ppl in their team that still can make them lose

Årketsu1 votes

~2/2 1/2 waves of minions is equivalent of one kill. Turret plates are actually broken, exp leads are broken etc. Just remember to mute your team or ignore them when you make decisions to pressure like this, they don't understand that you are making the most optimal play. The higher you climb the more they begin to understand this. When i was in plat i would get flamed alot for doing this ( i play TF and i cannot follow alot of assassins unless i have ult) so i would pressure tower, get a cs/exp lead, and a plate. Maybe look to roam top since i know that he is bot with jungler/etc. I realized once i hit diamond/ mid diamond, that people generally understand that if they just don't die to the gank/ mid roam, that you just netted like way more gold/exp than your opponent. Map pressure/minion management is the most important skill to climbing in diamond+. Just remember this, and if you keep doing it you will have results. Don't tilt from teammates.

Good luck climbing my dude!

Town Crier1 votes

{quoted}

~2/2 1/2 waves of minions is equivalent of one kill. Turret plates are actually broken, exp leads are broken etc. Just remember to mute your team or ignore them when you make decisions to pressure like this, they don't understand that you are making the most optimal play. The higher you climb the more they begin to understand this. When i was in plat i would get flamed alot for doing this ( i play TF and i cannot follow alot of assassins unless i have ult) so i would pressure tower, get a cs/exp lead, and a plate. Maybe look to roam top since i know that he is bot with jungler/etc. I realized once i hit diamond/ mid diamond, that people generally understand that if they just don't die to the gank/ mid roam, that you just netted like way more gold/exp than your opponent. Map pressure/minion management is the most important skill to climbing in diamond+. Just remember this, and if you keep doing it you will have results. Don't tilt from teammates.

Good luck climbing my dude!

I used to play Mid and top quite a bit, but when my son was born I spent most of last year absent from league. Lots of things had changed and when I did jump back in, It was support/ Jungle. I am definitely not platinum, or even high gold, but I believe my skill level to be that of a gold 3 player. One of the first things I learned being a support and jungle main is that nobody actually pays attention to pings, especially your ADC. When I see the mid ping missing, I find I have to spam the caution ping ON TOP OF MY ADC. Since I am playing in high silver, the ADCs are generally decent at playing their champ, but have tunnel vision when it comes to the minimap. For this reason, I would suggest pinging your missing pings on top of your allies so at least they will see it on their screen.

As a Jungler, when I see my Malzahar mid pushing I know to ward the enemy raptor camp to watch for ganks, and generally I will pressure bot lane to try to keep dragon control. I know that the enemy jungler will be salivating when Malz pushes a tower, and if I can warn them about an impending gank, not only does it save my team from giving up 300 gold, but it shows me where the enemy jungler is and then I can punish him for a failed gank, even if it's taking gromp from him or a scuttle. Best case, I can countergank and get malz a kill or myself one.

Like I said, I an no where near pro, but one thing I like about this game is there is always something you could have done to prevent your death, or something you should have done when presented with the information you found. That's why warding is so important in the game.

Linna Excel1 votes

Basically for a lot of players, it's hard to worry about wave control when you don't understand your champ, the matchup, or much about the game.

I've said it plenty of times but league is a game of minions. That said, it takes a while of conscious effort to form the good habits and that in turn is hard when you are trying to git gud at 20 other things while 3-5 other people are trying to kill you. Then you've got practical experience in that each match-up is going to want you to control the lane differently so you've got to get used to and understand that as well.

My problem comes when my jungler doesn't like to either help cover my lane if it's open

As someone who occasionally played jungle in the past, I've had laners get mad at me for taking CS while they were at base. And I'm talking about just last hitting the ones the tower was going to get anyway.

Pika Fox1 votes

Because damage is a trackable stat. There isnt really one for "Oh look, i denied the enemy CS/XP for X duration by controlling minions better" or the like.

EATARI1 votes

In stats you can see your average CS lead at 15 minutes on a champion. When I play Miss Fortune mid, I get only 70ish CS by 15 minutes, but I also negate so much CS that my enemy laner is only at 30.

Pika Fox1 votes

{quoted}

In stats you can see your average CS lead at 15 minutes on a champion. When I play Miss Fortune mid, I get only 70ish CS by 15 minutes, but I also negate so much CS that my enemy laner is only at 30.

Sure, but thats not really something people do. Its not as glaringly obvious as "me get kill, uuuug"

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FkrXcAG,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2019-08-09T02:56:04.828+0000)

Sure, but thats not really something people do. Its not as glaringly obvious as "me get kill, uuuug"

Too bad it is true so we do have a problem

Theorex1 votes

Freezing a wave/ denying minions is not as worth as killing a champion/ denying minions. Playing Smart is not as important as Playing for Damage.

Its a pretty simple concept, riot doesn't want anyone to play smart in their game anymore. So that this way they can feel smart about the changes they have done to the game to put it in this state. :D

Its a pretty smart plan honestly. People that hate these new changes, leave the game and go play other things. Leaving the people that don't actually know anything about the game behind, like Hashinshin. The streamers and pros that still play all hate the game, but it is their living. So, they have to stay around.

Its honestly a massive Win-Win for riot. They lose the part of the playerbase that actually likes the game for its competitiveness, and keep behind the part of their playerbase that buys skins, for the OP stuff that they are playing atm. Keep the streamers. Keep the pros.

10/10 business plan. 0/10 good competitive game. Go to SC2, CS:GO, etc.

Clone Is Friend1 votes

as a shaco main i can really say dmg isnt even that important as an endgame stat. when i play teemo i always have highest dmg even when i feed because that is teemo and when i play shaaco i have second lowest or so and im still able to win reliably

LPelican 1 votes

malzahar player

Ben SwoIo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=LPelican ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FkrXcAG,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-08-09T15:21:04.143+0000)

malzahar player

Okay?

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