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Naut Change is not enough. Riot you barely touched the problem

Angry Monster··15 votes·2,604 views

So everybody knows about the change to health on his w. This is great minus the fact they should of done this last season. With Riot constantly lowering the total health of the game this change was required to even make Naut usable. Sadly this does not address the problems that this champ has.

The problem is that Naut mid game late game means nothing you are totally at the whim of your team mates. The defensive stats you must get to try to soak damage make you a joke. Try to 1v1 any non tank that is equal gold in items and watch yourself get melted. Also God forbid that you are caught in your own jungle by any enemy champ.

Naut needs some king of threat mid late game besides his CC. The CC is pretty much meaningless since almost all of it used to start the fight (R & Q). Teams can decided to either quickly focus fire or ignore any naut if his ult is already down. With some much pen in the game the shield breaks breaks to easily and reduces any threat he may actually have. Most mages can delete the health shield with one spell.

Tanks need a threat to be focused. Threat does not mean only damage though riot has only ever given damage threats real meaning. Constant CC can be a threat but naut does not have this, nor does his kit even come close to supporting this. His damage values are a joke even with his shield up. Riot expects jungle tanks to build AP but give no reasonable path to do so while being a real tank.

TLDR The issues are deeper than just a shield problem. All riot has done is put in a change that is 2 seasons to late. More is needed.

57 Comments

Hayaishi6 votes

CC alone is lackluster now when shit like Vi and Jarvan exist.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}

CC alone is lackluster now when shit like Vi and Jarvan exist.

Sort of where I was going. Giving him more CC seems like it might solve the problem, but all that does is make Naut a 1-trick pony more than he already is. He's a CC threat. Maybe not the BEST, but definitely up there. Now he needs at least one other thing he's competent at, so people don't just ignore him once his CC has landed.

Meep Man2 votes

How do we fix a champion that has enough CC? MOAR CROWD CONTROL!

Angry Monster1 votes

j4 existed before naut. He has just recieved the need tweeks. Plus vi and j4 are not tanks they are bruisers , and vi is also a tank buster with her w

serpensortia11 votes

He's saying why pick nautilus when you can go vi or j4. They both have good CC as well as damage, and they build tanky. Nautilus can't be just a CC tank when there exist CC bruisers.

Angry Monster1 votes

i mis understood what he was saying.

Dr Clueless PhD2 votes

He does have other CC, though. A decent bit of it, between his passive and E.

Angry Monster2 votes

E is a slow, not even a good one. It is not good CC and has terrible range. While most META champs have some form of dash or blink.

His passive requires him to auto a champ and then you cant use the same passive on that champ for the rest of the fight. Also with his slow AS and move it take a lot of time to do that to just 3 champs.

Chaotic Reks3 votes

sounds like Braum

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Shhh

AccountaBilabudy2 votes
  1. Give him more attack speed per level
  2. Make E now root the target for 1.5 secs if it hits more than once. Also buff the damage. -OR-
  3. W now has a passive that slows on hit while on cooldown.
ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Give him more attack speed per level
  2. Make E now root the target for 1.5 secs if it hits more than once. Also buff the damage. -OR-
  3. W now has a passive that slows on hit while on cooldown.

First one could work. Second one gives Nautilus WAY to long a CC chain: Q-Passive-E-R could end up as 5.5 seconds of movement denial, with the root being an AoE effect.

Third probably also makes him a little too inescapable. Of those options, extra AS is what I'd consider the safest option.

AccountaBilabudy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ELIfmAQ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2014-12-18T22:38:58.634+0000)

First one could work. Second one gives Nautilus WAY to long a CC chain: Q-Passive-E-R could end up as 5.5 seconds of movement denial, with the root being an AoE effect.

Third probably also makes him a little too inescapable. Of those options, extra AS is what I'd consider the safest option.

But isnt that the point? Make his CC what makes him feared late game since his damage is terrible late game? That way he could have either great initiate CC for team to follow up, or great peel if your teams gets initiated on to.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}

But isnt that the point? Make his CC what makes him feared late game since his damage is terrible late game? That way he could have either great initiate CC for team to follow up, or great peel if your teams gets initiated on to.

My point was that Nautilus's CC is already feared. He's up there with Leona and Fiddlesticks for most potential CC on a single target. Giving him even MORE CC just makes him obnoxious to play against, rather than making him an actual threat.

The new Sejuani changes give a good example: rather than up her CC or increase her burst, they rebalanced her to throw more incidental damage around a fight so she can't be ignored once her main spells are off cooldown. Nautilus probably needs something more like that: lower E cooldown, perhaps with a situational damage boost on rooted targets and/or targets struck by all three waves, AoE damage that persists once his shield falls...something to keep him an in-fight threat once he's blown his already powerful Q+R engage. I don't think throwing more AoE lockdown is the way to do that though.

In short, he needs some of his weaknesses shored up...not his strengths magnified. His strengths are REALLY strong...it's just that he's really best served as a tanky CDR CC-bot currently.

AccountaBilabudy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ELIfmAQ,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-18T22:46:41.206+0000)

My point was that Nautilus's CC is already feared. He's up there with Leona and Fiddlesticks for most potential CC on a single target. Giving him even MORE CC just makes him obnoxious to play against, rather than making him an actual threat.

The new Sejuani changes give a good example: rather than up her CC or increase her burst, they rebalanced her to throw more incidental damage around a fight so she can't be ignored once her main spells are off cooldown. Nautilus probably needs something more like that: lower E cooldown, perhaps with a situational damage boost on rooted targets and/or targets struck by all three waves, AoE damage that persists once his shield falls...something to keep him an in-fight threat once he's blown his already powerful Q+R engage. I don't think throwing more AoE lockdown is the way to do that though.

In short, he needs some of his weaknesses shored up...not his strengths magnified. His strengths are REALLY strong...it's just that he's really best served as a tanky CDR CC-bot currently.

I actually disagree. I dont think his CC is currently feared end game, because its nearly impossible to catch the ADC or APC in your CC, and wasting all of it on their tank or brusier can work in some situations, but mostly it goes un-noticed. To really CC a target right now you're reliant on landing your Q, which is extremely hard to do against the back line, especially against ones with flashes/dashes. So making his E root upon landing multiple times at least gives you the option of keeping that brusier/tank locked down enough to keep them off your carries or let your carries have pop shots at them.

And Leona/Fiddle have the ability to get to that back line which is why their CC is better. Leona is by far the best since you can stick a R from far away and follow up with E+Q that goes through the front line.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

I actually disagree. I dont think his CC is currently feared end game, because its nearly impossible to catch the ADC or APC in your CC, and wasting all of it on their tank or brusier can work in some situations, but mostly it goes un-noticed. To really CC a target right now you're reliant on landing your Q, which is extremely hard to do against the back line, especially against ones with flashes/dashes. So making his E root upon landing multiple times at least gives you the option of keeping that brusier/tank locked down enough to keep them off your carries or let your carries have pop shots at them.

That's a fair assessment. Note that he'd have to lose a lot to compensate though: that ability would, assuming all three waves hit, have a large range than Amumu's ultimate, have the same effect (save that they could still auto-attack), deal more damage, and have a much lower cooldown. Think about how absurd that would be.

If we're talking increasing cooldown, lowering range slightly, reducing the root to, say, 1 second, maybe we could find a way to work with that. But even then we might have overkill on the CC, since adding a low CD AoE ability adds a LOT to his power.

Angry Monster3 votes

Why would he have to lose a lot? He is already weak. The point is to get him viable since he was designed in season 2.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

I feel like the changes on the PBE overall help Nautilus a lot more than it seems.

Smite being on a charge system allows a lot of tank junglers to go Gromp, Blue, either Wolves or Raptors, and then go red, while smiting both buffs and smiting Gromp for the poison damage. This is a pretty good buff to Nautilus if you ask me.

The change to the scaling and bases of Titan's Wrath allows Nautilus to have better scaling into the late game without taking too much out of his early game. His early game is relatively weak on live, and this change makes having the weaker early game a lot more worth it.

Also, does he really need to be able to 1v1 any non-tank with equal gold and levels? He's is probably just as useful as them even if he can't 1v1 them.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

The problem is that Naut mid game late game means nothing you are totally at the whim of your team mates. The defensive stats you must get to try to soak damage make you a joke. Try to 1v1 any non tank that is equal gold in items and watch yourself get melted. Also God forbid that you are caught in your own jungle by any enemy champ.

CC tanks are bad in 1v1 situations. That's pretty definitional to the role. Yes, Nautilus is a setup champion that relies on his teammates to make kills. You know what? That describes many successful junglers.

If Nautilus gets caught in his jungle, mostly he just anchors away. He'll never win the fight unless laners come, but he's also pretty easy to not die on.

Naut needs some king of threat mid late game besides his CC. The CC is pretty much meaningless since almost all of it used to start the fight (R & Q). Teams can decided to either quickly focus fire or ignore any naut if his ult is already down. With some much pen in the game the shield breaks breaks to easily and reduces any threat he may actually have. Most mages can delete the health shield with one spell.

You are vastly underrating the value of hard engage.

Tanks need a threat to be focused. Threat does not mean only damage though riot has only ever given damage threats real meaning. Constant CC can be a threat but naut does not have this, nor does his kit even come close to supporting this. His damage values are a joke even with his shield up. Riot expects jungle tanks to build AP but give no reasonable path to do so while being a real tank.

TLDR The issues are deeper than just a shield problem. All riot has done is put in a change that is 2 seasons to late. More is needed.

Nautilus still isn't strong after the changes, but it has nothing to do with his teamfighting power. He remains an amazing teamfighter. His problem, like most tank junglers, is that he suffers while clearing and relies on successful ganks for income.

Angry Monster2 votes

Yes cause Maokai is totally weak in a 1v1 hence him now being in the top lane. Being a tank does not mean getting shit on the second you see someone. Just cause your tank does not mean you should run. And why should tanks be designed to run they are always given the lowest movement speed.?

All he is hard engage. You soak and pray your team can win the fight afterwards. That is not a rewarding experience. Hard engage is great for a pick comp. Tanks dont do damage so that sorta defeats the point of the tank being a pick. If you hard engage into a team fight you blew everything to do so. You wont have peel and you can not fight anyone on the enemy.

I took a look at you match history (sadly only ranked shows in expanded) but you have no Naut games. I am not sure if you are playing him normals but your diamond and i assume you primarily play ranked. Why don't you play him if he is so good?

I am showing one game only on naut cause of snow down and that were my friends are playing. But when we play SR as a group i been playing naut jungle daily.

He is not currently viable. You have to roll the early game so hard its not even funny. If i rolled a game that hard on lee j4 or vi i could 3v1.

Go play naut get to the late game and tell me how impactful you feel your play feels/is in team fights. Jungle clearing is not the issue people think it is.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Yes cause Maokai is totally weak in a 1v1 hence him now being in the top lane. Being a tank does not mean getting shit on the second you see someone. Just cause your tank does not mean you should run. And why should tanks be designed to run they are always given the lowest movement speed.?

Maokai is weak in 1v1 situations. So weak that Poppy got played against him twice in LCS qualifying.

Being a tank doesn't inherently mean you should run, but it does mean you shouldn't expect any 1v1 kill potential. Your deal is being immortal, not being a lethal threat.

All he is hard engage. You soak and pray your team can win the fight afterwards. That is not a rewarding experience. Hard engage is great for a pick comp. Tanks dont do damage so that sorta defeats the point of the tank being a pick. If you hard engage into a team fight you blew everything to do so. You wont have peel and you can not fight anyone on the enemy.

You're still underrating hard engage. It's a rare property that is critical for stopping many team comps. Hard engage is why Maokai and Lissandra are dominant top laners right now; neither are actually that good in the top lane, but come teamfight time it's on.

I took a look at you match history (sadly only ranked shows in expanded) but you have no Naut games. I am not sure if you are playing him normals but your diamond and i assume you primarily play ranked. Why don't you play him if he is so good?

I'm a support main in ranked. I rarely jungle, and when I do tank jungle I prefer Amumu. Nautilus is too reliant on successful ganks and I prefer a lower risk playstyle.

In normals, I do play some Nautilus but I have maximum fun on Sejuani. She's quite similar to Nautilus, but I like her personality more.

I am showing one game only on naut cause of snow down and that were my friends are playing. But when we play SR as a group i been playing naut jungle daily.

He is not currently viable. You have to roll the early game so hard its not even funny. If i rolled a game that hard on lee j4 or vi i could 3v1.

Go play naut get to the late game and tell me how impactful you feel your play feels/is in team fights. Jungle clearing is not the issue people think it is.

I agree that Nautilus is weak.

Jungle clearing is the issue, though. Nautilus has a full item less stuff late game than he should have because his poor clearing means fewer ganks and fewer camps taken. Same deal as Sejuani; she'd be an absolute beast if she had average clearing ability, but instead she's a novelty pick because she can't get enough gold without succeeding on tons of ganks.

Angry Monster1 votes

I am telling you that his clears are fine. I am can almost clear as fast when i am Vi. if his movement speed was not so slow he might even beat her.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

{quoted}

I am telling you that his clears are fine. I am can almost clear as fast when i am Vi. if his movement speed was not so slow he might even beat her.

What if I told you that Vi's bad clearing speed means she sucks too? She's 15 seconds slower than Jarvan to 3. That's the main reason why Jarvan is played and Vi sits on the bench.

Angry Monster1 votes

Vi clears fine also. Vi is on the bench since she goes in adn can not get out. J4 can ult in and then flag and drag out if he desires while still knocking people up.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

Do you think a simple fix of making the magic damage steroid independent from the shield would be enough? Perhaps slightly compensated by a lower duration for both. Something like this:

Nautilus gains a shield for X amount, lasting up to 8 seconds. Additionally, for the next 8 seconds, Nautilus's basic attacks apply a debuff to all enemies within 175 range of his target, dealing bonus magic damage over 2 seconds.

His maximum damage output is reduced a bit, but his likely damage output is actually increased because the AoE damage isn't dependent on his shield remaining active.

It does remove some counterplay from his kit, but it's low-hanging fruit as far as easy changes that might end up bringing him up to par.

Angry Monster1 votes

I dont know. while separate them would allow more damage its not like you can scale the damage any form right now. I am not sure removal of counter play is the answer.

I am also not sure if more damage or more CC is the answer. I want naut to be a threat, though it does not have to be damage. The point of a CC tank is to absorb and force the enemy to focus fire, to make them fear me for some reason.

Late game he just does neither right now. So i am not sure low hanging fruit is the answer.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted} I am also not sure if more damage or more CC is the answer. I want naut to be a threat, though it does not have to be damage. The point of a CC tank is to absorb and force the enemy to focus fire, to make them fear me for some reason.

Late game he just does neither right now. So i am not sure low hanging fruit is the answer.

True. But it was an easy suggestion that might have helped. Low-hanging fruit is always the FIRST thing to explore when seeing what a champion needs, since it changes their playstyle the least.

But Nautilus might need a lot more, definitely. More CC is not a good answer though---you and others in this thread may not believe me, but Nautilus is still one of the highest CC characters in League. Up there with Leona, Thresh, Blitzcrank, Alistar, Fiddlesticks, Sion, and Cho'Gath. There's an upper limit to how much CC a kit can support without being hugely overpowered, and he's close to it. So any extra CC has to be very carefully considered.

Angry Monster1 votes

I argue that half his CC is not super useful.

E is a joke really passive requires you to be mobile (something no one accused naut of being) Ult is a good CC. I mean it feels like an ult but has a high CDR. You will never see it used 2 times in one battle. Unlike some other ults. Q hits everything under sun(minions). Plus it does not pull the enemy to you its more of meeting half way point. Most of the time you can not use it to get a high value target.

Its not like naut can break off from his team and ambush the enemy executing one guy.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

Also, don't forget that Naut's ultimate CAN always hit the back line. So he's actually pretty good at hitting the ADC with at least SOMETHING.

Angry Monster1 votes

Hitting the ADC with an ult and then nothing else happens to the adc, is still pointless.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

AGREED Naut is in a terrible place. After they nerfed his early game damage his ganks got sorta meh without the right laners and now with the jungle being really hard for him he can't get enough gold to protect himself much less his allies. Tanks are trash right now and need help Naut REALLy needs help to stay (not viable even) just usable.

Sammystorm1 votes

To be honest. Naut has one of the better clears out of all the junglers I have tried. He is one of the few that I have seen been able to do a full clear and come out around half health.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

Really he was the first one I tried in the new jung and it pissed me off so dam bad that I haven't played him since. I do want to remind you that while a full clear may be possible how much pressure did you get from the other jungler? I promise there isn't a champ out there that you can 1v1. (I used to be able to in Season 4 but I would have to postion myself and red buff very carefully). Also did you gank any? Because if you just want to clear there are better options for that as well better duelists and better scaling champs that can just farm the jung thats not really Nauts area. So my point is that might be possible but if you get attacked by other jung I bet you die and I bet you don't have very great early ganking either. IDK tho is that true or no?

ModThe Djinn1 votes

Because adding an AoE form of crowd control with 600 range onto a basic ability with a 10 second cooldown is insanely good.

Lissandra's W is a good example of the ability well balanced: scaling duration (1.1-1.5 seconds), moderate range (450), scaling cooldown (14/13/12/11/10), mediocre damage (up to 230 + 40% AP).

The suggested change was a 1.5 second root on Nautilus's E, which is currently a flat 10 second cooldown, 600 range, with damage up to 450 + 100% AP. Much better as a 1-point wonder, much better damage, strictly superior until both abilities are maxed, put on a character more likely to max CDR and more likely to be in the middle of a teamfight where that AoE can be used repeatedly to maximum effect.

It basically overloads his kit. There's too much power loaded into that ability. CC is strong. AoE CC is stronger. Movement-denying CC is very strong.

So something would have to be cut. Additionally, that doesn't solve the problem you had with him: he's still just a CC beast who needs someone backing him up. :P

Angry Monster1 votes

If he could CC them till help came i would be ok with it. i wasn't considering damage since his damage is already low. You can throw a 2.0 ratio and naut still wont build AP. There is just no itemization for that.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

It might be a nice change for him, but I'd probably say he'd need a new passive if you were going to give him the ability to lock down so many people so easily, and I'd probably want to see E's root duration (and possibly range) scale with levels in the ability.

Angry Monster1 votes

Maybe. Though 1/2 the passive is only good early game and the other half is a pain to use on many targets. I was personally thinking like a .25 root just something to make the people stop for a sec. Not super stong but enough to give your team a movement edge and maybe a easy interput.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

If you're somehow convinced that Naut needs more CC to be competitive, you COULD consider making a triple-hit with his E proc his passive on all targets struck. That makes his teamfight scarier while not overpowering him in situations where he can land everything on a target he's auto-attacking. Probably the best way to add CC without throwing off his power budget entirely.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Nautilus does not have a problem.

If you are building him right, you will do damage while being a huge cc threat.

The new shield is going to be up a very long time, and if your getting focused to the point where the enemy ends up popping it, than you are doing your job. Your a tank. Any focus you receive is a good thing.

His clears are actually really good compared to other tanks if you have the right runes (Attack Speed applies more damage from his W)

This is going to make him even better, however, his early clears might actually get worse depending.

The only real buffs he can use are an increase to his size, and perhaps lower the cd on his passive.

More base AS could also be a buff.

Angry Monster1 votes

I completely disagree. The fact that people can drop your shield (do to how D stats work) is a big issue. The shield is your treat meter. When it is gone people can pretty much ignore you.

As i have stated i know the new shield changes are a buff. That does not mean it is fixing his problem of lack of late game threat.

Clearing of the jungle is not a issue that i have raised at all. I have been talking about what happen when invaded/ runs into one enemy or late game team fights only. I happen to find that when i play as naut or when playing against a Naut that they tend to fall off hard at the mid game unless they made a ton of early plays.

Naut should be viable as a soak through out the whole game with his CC. Also when he hits a 6 item complete build 1 enemy champ should not delete him under 3 seconds.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

I remember my promos for Gold last season, one of the games I got so fed as Naut I 1v2d a Sej and Sivir and 1v1d a Vi, so it's naut like he doesn't do damage, just not very much. Liandries makes him a threat in teamfights because he's shredding the whole enemy team with his E, but you never get to build it because he needs to get tanky and the stats aren't very useful on him. My recommendations:

  1. Bring back the "tank deathcap" we had in SotAG to help him scale.
  2. Make a "tank liandries", maybe instead of health shred it's "reduce their damage by 10%, 20% if slowed"
  3. Fix his attack speed so that building a Wits End puts him at 0.99 AS (it did this before the Dagger change last season), this gives him fairly good DPS because of how the ticks on his W work, but going about 0.99 hurts his DPS.
  4. Add a passive to the W so that even without the shield his autos apply magic damage that isn't AoE or DoT.
Angry Monster1 votes

That is the point of the thread. You had to be super fed.

Anyone can do damage when fed though. I once built a Tri force through jungling on naut cause I ended up with 10+ kills and 10 assists around 25 minutes. These types of games are exceptions not the norm though. Just cause they can happen does not mean they should be considered.

There are alot of ideas in the thread. Is damage what he needs? Better CC? I am not sure.

The one thing i am sure of is that I am not happy with how riot is approaching this. Sure fix the shield ratios (after all you can not get the same amount of health as season 2. ) Giving a better shield is not going solve the fundamental issue when he has to face another champ 1v1.

Sammystorm1 votes

to be fair. In season 2 resists were more valuable making anything that added health a lot more powerful. So champs like cho'gath or naut were much better because they could get the resists then soak a bit more then other champs. When season 3 came and health became the better stat it made nauts w feel very bad because it was so easy to get rid of because of how fleshy it was with all the shreds.

Angry Monster1 votes

That is the point trying to make. The currents stats just does not work for what naut is supposed to do. naut is flawed on a fundmental level cause of all the changes from the seasons.

Though health itemization is slowly getting worse. Sunfire does less damage and give elss health. Frozen heart is pretty much required against ADCs these days but for a health tank it makes you feel bad since you are not increasing your health therefore your shield.

Items like bork and lyandries are tank busting weapons when tanks are weak.

Everything in the game is setup for naut to just fail

4nth0l0gy1 votes

The real problem with Nautilus is that his main offensive DOT ability and main burst defensive ability are the same freakin skill. I seriously don't understand why Riot has kept his W's AOE damage dependent on on the shield, they are two ability effects attached to opposite mentalities.

Keyoshi1 votes

I love naut, he was my favorite jungle for a while and still sorta is but i dont play him because i hate how long his cooldowns are, i dont think he's that bad but when it comes to cool downs, thats when it becomes problematic. I go to a lane and gank at 6 and ult them they blow a flash, awesome now i have to wait a whole 2 minutes and 10 seconds, thats half a flash. That doesn't make much sense. It's not like naut does an extreme amount of damage so why not lower the cool down by 20 seconds.

Angry Monster1 votes

personally laning phase is the only time i feel useful. When playing naut i feel completely useless when it comes to dragons and team fighting.

LANWhale1 votes

I just don't understand why they haven't separated the W passive from the active. Make it act like Malphite W, passive AOE damage and on activation make it have a dot.

ïîï1 votes

I remember when I bought Nautilus ... during ultra rapid fire mode were he was an unstoppable force early game. That being said I will need to agree tank champions have it hard trying to build up both health and attack.

Riot can you incress the effectiveness of armor and MR.... Making the time to kill longer on all champions and make tanks more of a burden to take out? Lets face it, building attack or AP is cheaper and more effective then buying armor or MR. This then leads to faster deaths late game were there should be a longer fight were skills and not auto attacks matter.

I know no one from Riot will see this but I just wanted to get this out.

AccountaBilabudy1 votes

Ive been saying for a while now that he's a better support than jungler.

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