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Tank jungle where are you. @Riot, Merrelo, Iron, Parrot, balance team or any red.

Angry Monster··5 votes·1,133 views

alright before people say that tank jungle is strong. Lets get something straight Shy, jax, oalf, ect are not tanks they are fighters. Can they be built tanky? Why yes they can. But this is not what this is about.

I am talking about the Sej, Mao, Naut, ect. They people whose sole design is to absorb as much damage as possible and try to CC the front line.

Pick rates
Mao 1.72% Sej 2.42% Naut 1.6%

So what is wrong with these 3 champs. Several things hold these champs back.

To start they tend to have mana issue and require a 2nd blu to be effective. Now people will say they this is a trade for running tank. I think that is the wrong way to look at that. Example level 1 saplings on mao cost 70 mana and the cost scales up and the damage does not scale well at all. All cool downs are locked at the level 1 ranked.

Enemy itemization: All the health tanks have one weakness. They have to build health since they cant do effective damage. Some of the ablites of the require high max% to do anything. There is an easy in game counter for this. % health damage. Mages, fighters and ADCs all have easy access to these items. Forcing health tanks to build more and more health/ defensive items compounding that they can't deal damage.

All tank items right now are designed to be used by the fighter class. I know part of LOL is the fact any champ can buy any item. But the fact is that Tanks have not be compensated for the fact that there core items keep getting nerfed cause fighters to do everything better. Why take a true tank when your fighers can get almost as tanky and do damage?

Please upvote and post agree disagree ect. I really would like to see a red response to lets keep this thread visable

25 Comments

LVNsNASmurf4 votes

I personally feel with her strong engage on ult, Shyv is a tank. However, the real reason tanky junglers are not in vogue is simply two reasons.

One, the jungler is broke due to weak gold

Two, the jungler needs damage to make early ganks happen, and not ganking til 6 or later might as well be a surrender.

Angry Monster1 votes

Shy is clearly listed as a Fighter. She gets tanky but has a lot of damage in her kit

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

And Vi is listed as an assassin. Tags are only a general idea of what a character does, not 100% end-all be-all facts.

Angry Monster1 votes

no according to the client she a fighter also

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

But my point is that it also lists her as an assassin as a secondary tag. Tags don't really mean much other than a small recommendation of what this champion could do.

Angry Monster1 votes

Secondary tags are mostly BS. All 3 tanks are listed as mages. Only cause they have to cast in order to do something.

Vi can 100 to 0 an adc when fed therefor so must be an assassin... this is the worst logic in the world.

i rather not even get into secondary tags. I personally feel they are misleading and that riot gave one to everybody to cover out laying cases.

Flannel Mannel2 votes

Tags don't mean anything. If Shyvana builds Bork+full tank, she's a tank. Tags and CC don't make somebody a tank. Sure, having CC is good on a tank, but you can have tanks with extremely little CC like Garen or Shyvana. It's not that tanks are out of favor right now, it's just that tanks that can deal damage are prioritized over tanks that can CC right now.

Angry Monster1 votes

I strongly disagree with that. There is a damage output that shy brings that tanks can not. % health damage is built right into her kit. Getting bork just allows her to do more even more % damage.

Its her kit that makes her a fighter. You couldn't build true tanks the brusier way and expect them to be effective.

Again this is one of the original points. You can just build tanky (different from a true tank) with shy and do damage. While the CC tanks have to build health and still not. all the real tank items are better on bruisers/fighters since they have innate damage.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

I have to agree on this, role list be damned. Shyvana has pretty damn good base stats and fairly high innate resistances. Compared to, say, Naut/Sej/Maokai. These three have to actively build tank stats to survive with little wiggle room as a tradeoff for their CC output.

Except Shyvana has no CC, fairly good tank stats (Which let her buy a bit more tank-items) and a boat of damage. I guess the biggest issue (IMO) is that Shyvana is pretty decent at all stages of the game whereas these tank jungles really only come to great power late in the game when they can absorb all that damage.

You could even apply this argument to J4/Lee Sin, both of who have decent base resistances, great damage yet far less CC compared to the Sej/Naut/Mao trinity.

Angry Monster1 votes

All the fighters have really good base stats. The thing that makes a persona tank is this game is CC. Riot pulls back the champs damage in theory cause cause how much a Tank can supposedly CC. Its faulty logic at best.

Look at the tank page on the LOL client. Most of them have at least 2 hard CCs.

Riots fighter page is much convoluted and numerous. Voli, LEE, jayice, Yasou.... Its an pretty random list.

Newbert Newman1 votes

Remember when Shyvana was Trash Teir.......Last season????

LVNsNASmurf1 votes

No CC? What about that knockback on her ult? Thats actually a decent engage if you aim it well. Between that and burnout / dragon breath, she can deal decent tanky disruption in a fight.

Oh, and I consider j4 a tank with his engage and disruption from e-q and R.

Tanking isn't about being a damage sponge or being a CC monster, it's about being able to hard engage a fight, then destroy the enemy positioning through disruption.

Shyv, J4, Vi, they all do that.

Flannel Mannel2 votes

True, although Vi is crushing the jungle right now and she doesn't have great pre-6 ganks

LVNsNASmurf2 votes

cough Sorry, what? Her Q makes for great ganks, esp if you can bounce someone just a bit in the wrong direction.

Go watch NintendudeX in CST vs TSM on sunday.

Flannel Mannel2 votes

Watched that game live actually. And yeah, she can gank pre-6. But they're still lackluster compared to a lot of other people's pre-6 ganks (Nocturne, Lee Sin, Elise, even Maokai, Nautilus, or Sejuani). If Dyrus would have had his lane warded, or held onto his flash to dodge the Vault Breaker once it was already being cast, he would have lived easily. Her pre-6 ganks can work, but they're nothing special. Which is why a lot of successful Vi's mostly farm until 6.

LVNsNASmurf2 votes

Noct, Naut, Mao and Sej have weak pre six ganks. Lee sin and Elise are not tanks. If you want strong early ganks, look to champions like panth, voli, trundle, fighter types with enough CC and damage to get the kill.

The reason I believe the ones I listed have weak ganks is because they lack the ability to meaningfully contribute damage or tower dive ability early game, and so are much less successfull in early ganks.

Flannel Mannel2 votes

Noct E+Q are great ganking skills, the only thing his ult gives him is a gapcloser, but he doesn't need to be in melee distance to land his E or Q.

Mao's ganks don't change at all once he hits 6.

Nautilus's ganks are pretty godlike as soon as he gets at least 1 point in his Q. They improve even more once he gets his ultimate, but his ganks are godlike all game long.

Sej has pretty solid (though not great) pre-six ganks due to her dash/displacement (very similar to Vi's Vault Breaker). The thing that makes Sejuani ganks slightly better than Vi's pre-6 IMO is Sej's passive keeps her from needing red buff (which wears off in the levels 4-6 area depending on how far ahead/behind you are in the jungle)

Lee Sin doesn't have to build tank, but a lot of Lee Sins do go full tank. He's one of those weird champions (a bit like Nocturne or Vi, actually) that can go focus on building either tank or damage and still mange to do alright, assuming the condition of the game doesn't force them to go one way or the other. But when he does go full tank, he's a very effective tank. Moreso than tank Nocturne, I'd say.

Elise isn't a true tank, but she's usually built quite tanky, because she has low AP ratios and high base damages. General Elise builds are tankiness+magicpen (to make use of her high base damages)

And as far as Panth/Voli/Trundle:

Panth's pre-6 ganks are pretty much the exact same thing as Maokai, and I'm pretty sure Maokai's snare has more range than Panth's stun.

Voli/Trundle both have high CC for ganks, but neither one puts out a remarkably high amounts of damage early game for ganks though.

LVNsNASmurf2 votes

Noct has no gapclose, and relies on getting a Q to to even get the MS to move into range. Anyone attempt a noct gank pre-6 is doomed to failure.

Mao has very little damage, and needs his ult to make successful tower dives.

Panth has some of the most powerful early game damage, as well has the passive on his E which easily puts him a tier above mao. To suggest Voli and trundle have low damage is to be completely ignorant of their high power.

It's clear you have no idea what the actual state of junglers is.

Flannel Mannel2 votes

Lol Nocturne Q is super easy to land, and has 1200 range. Additionally, he doesn't have to close the entire gap to even gank, If he gets within 425 range at any point of the gank, the enemy has to blow flash or get feared (which often means a kill). While Noct's pre-6 ganks are not as strong as his post-6 ganks, they are most certainly not "doomed to failure". They are, in fact, fairly strong for a pre-6 gank. In fact, he has one of the strongest level 3's of any jungler in the game.

Mao indeed has little damage, but a gank does not always mean a tower dive. A Maokai can use his W and Q to keep the enemy from ever reaching their tower. Additionally, Maokai's W has 50 more range than Pantheon's W, meaning it's easier for Mao to close the gap than it is for Pantheon to close the gap.

And as far as Pantheon having more early game damage than Maokai... at level 3 Maokai's E+W+Q does 270 base damage. Pantheon's W+E+Q combo does 195 damage. Last I checked 270 was more than 195. And at level 3, Maokai has more base attack damage than Pantheon does.

In fact, Pantheon's maximum damage from his Q+W+E at level 3 (with 21 points in the Offensive mastery tree + flat ad Quints, Marks, Seals, and Glyphs) is 335 damage. Which means you'll have to sacrifice defense, magic resist, armor, and attack speed. You'll essentially have an incredibly slow clear speed, be taken very low by clearing your own jungle, and be too squishy to effectively gank without dying. And you mentioned tower diving with Pantheon. If you're building squishy enough to do this much early game damage, Pantheon passive won't be enough to towerdive with early.

And yes, neither Volibear or Trundle put out remarkable damage. Trundle has two decent autoattack steroids, but neither one is as remarkable as Nocturne's two autoattack steroids. Volibear deals out incredibly minimal damage until he can use his W proc, which requires 3 autos first. And ANY jungler will have a successful early gank and put out lots of damage if they're allowed to auto the enemy three times. That being said, Volibear and Trundle both have decent early ganks, but it's not because of their damage output. It's because they both have movement speed boosts and strong early game CC.

Angry Monster1 votes

I personally feel that maybe the super early game for tanks is fine. After all its 3v2 or 2v1 and giving your laners a chance to burst down the enemy. But what do u do when its 30 minutes into the game?

I tired a Mao game last night for fun. There is just no way to tank out a fight anymore. Front line damage threats is what makes the enemy split the attention. They have to fear the that u are worth there attention. CC tanks just don't being that.

Letler1 votes

Shyv does too much damage and not enough CC to be a classic tank in my mind.

Sneak Dog2 votes

Personally, I'd start looking at the still awful income of the jungle. The golem spirit costs a lot of gold for the raw stats it gives. If you value tenacity about 350g, you need to gain 400g with the conservation and butcher passives just to get a return. Conservation takes 10 minutes to generate this amount of gold just to make the item worth its cost (only the spirit wraith item is efficient, with the silly amount of ap it gives if farmed).

I thought it was supposed to increase the jungle income, but I often find myself with 80 conservation stacks having to siege with the team or being behind and incapable of stealing away two jungle camps before an ally or the opponent does. It needs 10 minutes of efficient conservating to be cost-efficient (with the exception of the spirit wraith, which does actually give insanely good stats). Compare this to the final upgrades of the coin and relic shield, which cost the same and increase ones gold income by more, their raw stats are both worth it. Spellthief's edge actually isn't, but I honestly don't ever see that item anyway.

Nowadays, I feel like I am simply broke as a jungler if I don't get snowballing. I am near support-levels of gold as I look at the postgame stats. I personally blame this to the jungle still giving little gold and conservation kicking in way too late and not giving premium value, but instead compensating for the inefficiency. Compared to the all too efficient new support items, this feels unfair.

A second explanation could be that the items increase jungle speed by a percentage, compared to madred's which increases it almost flatly (scaling only with as). This makes building dmaage much more efficient for jungling nowadays because current madreds is no longer intended for tank junglers.

I have used the league of legends wikia for the worth and cost of these items. These stats are calculated using the cheapest item that gives that stat as a baseline (main examples would be long sword, amplifying tome and ruby crystal).

s7efen1 votes

All either can't duel well early or require blue buffs. If you need a second blue buff, and a champ does the same thing as you do but doesn't, he will be picked more frequently.

Eg - Amumu, Wukong all outclass the 3 listed champs while being better early game and less mana dependent.

Angry Monster1 votes

There has been a few posts were we are disagreeing what a Tank is. Some people keep saying that SHY is a tank. I disagree with this statement with the fact the in game character definitions as a fighter. Can she get tanky? Of course.

IF we are going to say SHY is a tank then every other tank in the game needs to have her power is some format. She could 1v1 any of the 3 from the original post from even behind.

I am not against raising the power of the above 3 to that level. Though i do believe that they are in different categories.

Thoughts?

Sabrestrike1 votes

I think the Spirit item changes right now heavily favor AD champs with strong single target spells. Note that right now, single target spells and AAs generate 8% Health and 4% mana based on damage dealt while AoE spells generate half of that. This means that during second and third clears the ad assassins/fighters will be healthier while coming out of the jungle and clear faster (because their kits/ SotEL clear faster than tank kits and SotAG)

Look at Kha/Wukong/Pantheon and you can see several potent SotEL users.

The upcoming change 6%/3% on all spells will be a buff to AoE spell clearers and reduce the sustain of single target AD based junglers.

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