As a jungler, the enemy jungler invades and steals my second buff

Frontline Fury··63 votes·16,308 views

I will now be two levels behind their top laner and jungler and three levels behind their mid laner for the rest of the game.

Now if the enemy jungler or mid laner steals ONE of my regular camps (say, raptors) i will be so far behind i can no longer participate in the game. There is no longer ANY way for me to gain enough experience or gold to recover from this.

That's two jungle camps. I lost two jungle camps and i'm out of the game.

Working as intended?

48 Comments

Hügö33 votes

You can play jungle teemo then you can impact the game by being a mobile ward and you will be mroe usefull, sad but true.

ÈvilMorty18 votes

god forbid if you play a tank jg vs an assassin or fighter jg

A Chaotic Mind1 votes

yeah this is why seju is top tier right now

UlyssesISR13 votes

Iv noticed this also even in SR-Blind mode. I think it's a result of the jungle nerf. So people feel they need to kill even more monsters now than before. All so they can be more or less on par in terms of level/gold with players in lanes.

Alith Anar11 votes

The changes effect the whole game. They make it so much more of a snowball. Really hate it. You fall behind and can never catch up. Then enemy team just steam rolls. They need to revert the jungle nerf. Jungle SHOULD have a huge impact. We shouldn't leveling at the same pace as support lol. It ridiculous.

AlienPrimate1 votes

This makes me wonder if it will be worth funneling with a support mid again to keep the jungler in the game as well as have a useful 5th person.

PhearBunny8 votes

Jungle exp is so garbage, that its beneficial to just sit around in someones lane to get a level advantage over the other jungler. Its r%%%%%ed.

May as well just play 2 top now.

Beast Brawler1 votes

Hues in Mordekaiser getting bonus exp for killing anything with an ally nearby

Zerenza6 votes

First, you need to ward your Opposing River Bush at 1:10 or have an ally ward it at 1:20. So if you started Bot Side blue, you'd ward your Top Side River Bush closest to mid lane, it's called Pixel Brush but i'm not sure why.

This is important against every fighter jungler, what this ward let's you do is have a higher chance of seeing the enemy jungler path into your's, if you see them path into your ward and into your jungle, counter jungle them back. If you notice that scuttle didn't path into your ward(watch it, scuttle always moves down towards Mid Lane when it spawn on top side.) then you know the enemy jungler is taking that scuttle, it should appear around the 2 minutes mark.

In either of these cases, scuttle does not appear on your ward, or the enemy jungler does appear on your ward, invade the enemy jungle and enter Vertical Jungling. If you do this you won't be behind anymore because you'll take the same camps as the enemy.

In my last game the enemy Jax started my Red Side while i started Bot Side Blue, so, because i saw him on my ward at Pixel Brush leaving my jungle, i took his entire botside red, my whole botside blue and because he didn't take my Raptor's or Krugs i got a HUGE CS advantage over him since i took those too.

Owl Puff4 votes

I do that but sometimes I get fucked anyway. Most of the time I can't fight them since my champs aren't as strong early lvls compared to champs like kha or lee. If I'm not in a duo/premade then most ppl will react late/not notice at all. It really sucks when one/two invades can fuck you over this hard.

Zerenza2 votes

Yeah, i main Evelynn so i completely understand. What i'v found to be the best strategy is actually to invade their Botside jungle, Kha'zix, Lee and Xin almost always do a Double Buff start into the opposite jungle scuttle(so if they started Botside they'd path towards top.) and then invade you.

This way they'll invade you, take your buff but in most cases ignore your other camps, so you might lose your Red Buff but you'll still get around the same EXP and probably more gold if they chose not to take more camps.

I preffer to do this when my laner's don't have lane Priority, if they do have lane priority i'll go a more standard path and just ping assist me when i see the enemy jungler.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Sounds great tbh. You're punishing him for a typical play and in return you catapult far ahead of him even though he's playing the "meta" class of character.

+1 for your bulging brain.

Zerenza2 votes

Honestly, FoxdropLoL and Pro Guides posted about this and i watched it recently, i found out that you can run from your fountain to topside river and ward at 1:10 but still have ample time to make it back bot for your leash so it really has felt pretty good. In my ELO i don't get invaded that much but when it does happen i almost never get help, it's been helping me deal with it quite a bit.

Meredith Stout1 votes

I believe its called Pixel Brush because if you put ward at it enemy jungler can still avoid it by few pixels that are in FoG.

Here is video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSL65rBg9d0

Zerenza1 votes

Oh yeeaaaahh i remember that i don't remember if it's been patched or not.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

First, you need to ward your Opposing River Bush at 1:10 or have an ally ward it at 1:20. So if you started Bot Side blue, you'd ward your Top Side River Bush closest to mid lane, it's called Pixel Brush but i'm not sure why.

This is important against every fighter jungler, what this ward let's you do is have a higher chance of seeing the enemy jungler path into your's, if you see them path into your ward and into your jungle, counter jungle them back. If you notice that scuttle didn't path into your ward(watch it, scuttle always moves down towards Mid Lane when it spawn on top side.) then you know the enemy jungler is taking that scuttle, it should appear around the 2 minutes mark.

In either of these cases, scuttle does not appear on your ward, or the enemy jungler does appear on your ward, invade the enemy jungle and enter Vertical Jungling. If you do this you won't be behind anymore because you'll take the same camps as the enemy.

In my last game the enemy Jax started my Red Side while i started Bot Side Blue, so, because i saw him on my ward at Pixel Brush leaving my jungle, i took his entire botside red, my whole botside blue and because he didn't take my Raptor's or Krugs i got a HUGE CS advantage over him since i took those too.

This has been standard warding for over 6 months now and there is many ways to abuse this kinda pathing. For example on purple side i can do this as Udyr start item 1041 go Q>E>Q Blue>Gromp>Crab>Your blue or crab. If you do any of the standard red starts which frankly for Red side are the only starts, It won't matter if your ward spots because i'm gonna at the very least double crab you and at the worst 3 buffs 2 crab first blood and a recall at 6 mins with 1600+gold and you don't get too even play the game because you made a "mistake" in your early pathing.

Point being, yes there is things you can do to make things go poorly less often in the early game, but there isn't any fool proof method to avoid getting 3 buffs or outpathed 100% of the time and one small pathing "mistake" or one of you laners not helping you when the should at level 2 shouldn't prevent you from being useful for the next 15mins especially when that the time frame you're supposed to be the best role on the map.

mack91125 votes

I assume the situation you are describing is that you started let's say red and the enemy jungler started there red and they immediately rotated to your blue while you are clearing either your red side or going for scuttle.

You simply got counter jungled and you need to be aware of this possibility and be able to react to it .

Let's say you start red then do krugs or raptors you then have two choices to go for either top or bot scuttle. If you go for your red side scuttle you should ward or quickly check there blue and if it is still up you know they have invaded your blue side and you should counter jungle immediately.

In my plat games this is a regular occurrence.

Your first clear is the most important and sets your game pace.

agac42343 votes

nope. what his talking about is when kayn just places a ward over the wall and smites ur blue or red buff with his E. am a kayn player and i do this when i see that the enemy jungler isnt vertical jungling. i just place a ward take there blue and move on to my bot side and teher is nothing they can do apart from wardint the bush on red or blue buff but that could be a wasted ward becuase not every kayn does this

mack91126 votes

I always ward that vs a Kayne... That just sounds like a lack of understanding the matchup

BigFBear5 votes

Yeah after this jungle changes you are doomed if enemy Jungler successful invades you. I made this experience several times.

Jennifer4204 votes

well... they made lv 2 ganks weaker for sure LOL

Frog goes moo4 votes

Ivern

Serge THE GREAT3 votes

I personally believe that League's jungle ecosystem has always been bad. But maybe that's just me. One thing I do like about DOTA 2's jungle (as complicated as it is) is that you don't necessarily need to have a jungler. There are more options in there too.

Glaricion5 votes

Stacking, pulling, creating your own paths and chokepoints, free kiting, rune stealing, deepwards, ancients... I can't stomach Dota 2 anymore due to being disgusted at their business model and hating The New Journey's additions to the game, but dear lord did it have a lot to love even just w/ the jungle.

I think that League's old jungle ecosystems were at least passable.

For most champions that weren't Warwick or Udyr your health was going to be extremely low during the first few clears, so junglers had openings to be ganked before their allies could reactively respond. You could choose to powerfarm (not as good as farming a lane) at the expense of your lanes suffering, or you could camp a lane and reliably have nearby camps spawning every now-and-again to give the enemy laner opportunities to turn the tables/set up counterganks.

Riot and the community's weirdly defined buzzwords are ruining the game, one of which being 'interactivity'.

hrooza dota 1 votes

thats more of a general role thing in dota, its pretty much not set in stone like league ones is as you can have to many diff ways of laning

CØulrophobia3 votes

Yeah, at that point it is just better to go top as a support/duo top. I am not even kidding, you will get more exp and wont die due to invades from 3 levels higher enemy jungler, and you can take a camp or 2 when you see him on the other side of the map.

Davaken1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, at that point it is just better to go top as a support/duo top. I am not even kidding, you will get more exp and wont die due to invades from 3 levels higher enemy jungler, and you can take a camp or 2 when you see him on the other side of the map.

I truly hope you're joking

Velasan3 votes

Season 9 basically has to be the season of fixing stuff. Working as intended you say? As compared to all the other broken stuff?

Probably not.

I get that last season was supposed to be very experimental, but then they kept pushing changes without balancing out their new experiment. Now a whole year has gone by and half the game is still out of whack. Take for example new runes can often give you 3x the stats of the old system, but there isn't a way to get that much in defenses and all those defenses take time to stack up (overgrowth and conditioning).

I'm not going to stop playing the game, but I don't expect it to be anything like it used to be until a lot of things get updated.

Owl Puff3 votes

THIS is why I want catch up exp for players that are behind.

ozzzz6663 votes
  1. Drop ward at blue around 1 minute.
  2. Run back to red and start there.

If they go for your blue, after red you go straight to their blue and take their Blue AND Gromp. Chances are, they only took the buff. Now YOU are ahead.

Cenutrio 5 rabos2 votes

Although you're exaggerating big time, I do believe there is a huge snowball factor in the jungle, but not due to the xp nerfs (since the enemy jungler that invaded you is getting little reward xp-wise too), but the scuttler, which is nothing new. If you can't contest the scuttler for whatever motive you're left behind a lot, even more in the early stages of the game, and it's definitely an issue that should be addressed. On the other hand, if you get your buff stolen and you don't punish it, it's 100% your fault and you must pay a price for it, you should never let such thing happen. And yeah, if your team are stealing your camps when you're not fed, they're also fucking you big time, but I believe that with time people will realize (or drop to bronze) about how big of a deal it is right now.

Kaisha2 votes

The whole game is a massive snowball fck-fest. Anyone gets ahead by even a few kills and its pretty much GG. So dumb/boring.

DrTeath2 votes

Whatever laner is close to the buff you arent starting at should be warding your buff and going to tower as minions arrive there .

BigFBear2 votes

btw. tell your team they should ward the pixel bushes in River around 1:20 so you can see if/when enemy jungler takes crab and if/when he invades your jungle. If he does you need to do vertical jungling. Means: You take his jungle half. In higher Elo these 2 Wards in pixel bushes are totally common therefore.

ExxonV1 votes

"I will now be" are you refering to THIS patch? THIS patch changed absolutely nothing about your initial clear. I'm pretty disappointed scrolling through all the comments of people agreeing that early game jungling pressures been hit by THIS patch. Not one person actually read the patch notes? Or played before this patch and realized nothing changed? It's only later on they nerfed the exp after the first clear. Also ward the pixel brush in river opposite side of your start before going to your first buff and you'll know if you need to verticle jungle, in which case you'll lose nothing even if they do steal your buff.

If you're trying to figure out how to get the fastest level 3, it's still the same. Start red, go to krugs, turtle/raptors, boom level 3 and gank. Never even needed your other buff and blue is useless on every meta jungler anyways.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Honestly, I've only ever felt the exp nerfs by level 4 into 5.

ExxonV1 votes

I don't really feel them at all. I suspect on graves I'm prob a full level down by 15 - 16 than what I use to be, but the game is way to snowbally for it to matter. By the time the experience nerfs come into effect im taking objectives and pushing lanes which gives same experience.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

You could go gank a lane.

Frontline Fury2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=658st81A,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-01-30T04:28:20.592+0000)

You could go gank a lane.

When i'm 1+ level down with no items or buffs?

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Well yeah. Ganks are 1v2s, you're bound to have a least one buff, and depending on the champion, level 2 is enough of a gank to burn a flash, even if your opponent is a level above. The entire reason Riot nerfed the jungle exp, is to put a cost on failed ganks, so folk can't gank 24/7 and still go even in level. So if they're paying the cost of monster camps for ya, then cash in that check and gank a lane.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=658st81A,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T04:42:27.582+0000)

Well yeah. Ganks are 1v2s, you're bound to have a least one buff, and depending on the champion, level 2 is enough of a gank to burn a flash, even if your opponent is a level above. The entire reason Riot nerfed the jungle exp, is to put a cost on failed ganks, so folk can't gank 24/7 and still go even in level. So if they're paying the cost of monster camps for ya, then cash in that check and gank a lane.

Except for the fact that this doesn't hurt any of the champions who "fail" their ganks and go back to clearing the jungle. Lee Sin doesn't care because he has high mobility and goes right back in. The only champions who were affected were farming junglers. Gank heavy junglers either didn't clear the jungle quickly and live off their strong ganks, or had both strong ganks and clearing such as graves.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Well this is my opinion, but I think farming junglers should be effected. I don't think people should be rewarded by just isolating themselves into the jungle, avoiding interaction. That said, regardless, it still effects people like Lee Sin. His high mobility is exactly why he's going to be ganking, which means proper rotation/map awareness can net you camps from his jungle. The nerfs hit everyone, maybe some harder than others, but everyone regardless.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=658st81A,comment-id=00100000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T08:27:57.738+0000)

Well this is my opinion, but I think farming junglers should be effected. I don't think people should be rewarded by just isolating themselves into the jungle, avoiding interaction.

I do not agree with this viewpoint because it restricts the various playstyles offered. For example, pantheon is a good example of a champion with powerful early game power but falls off later on.

Master yi and shyvana generally farm until they get to late game power. Each affords a positive over a negative ok n playstyle. Pantheon has true negatives because his clear speed is jnferior. Shyvana and his tanks arent as lethal until they get items.

Providing players greater options not only makes them happy, but provides diversity for the game. The recent change only hurts farming junglers in a way that is dramatic compared to ganking junglers.

Let alone, what about laners? How about malzahar and heimerdinger who push their opponents and make interaction limited? By the logic you profess, any champion who is not aggressive should be denied viability and that is not healthy for the state of the game.

That said, regardless, it still effects people like Lee Sin. His high mobility is exactly why he's going to be ganking, which means proper rotation/map awareness can net you camps from his jungle. The nerfs hit everyone, maybe some harder than others, but everyone regardless.

Not really, because the same could be said prior to the gold and exp nerfs. Just abuse his heavy ganking routine. If this was true. Farming junglers would have been the preferred style and not champions such as graves and camille, whose gameplay patterns still remain with their power level 2 game impact.

It literally did nothing but make the game even more snowbally and force high aggressions the playstyle. Jungle still remains an impactful early role.

If you wanted to nerf what everyone complained bout healthily. Decreased respawn timers on campus would have helped.

Lee sin still needs a nerf btw.

Not HeIping You1 votes

As a jungler, in 9/10 games before i can even get level 6, all 3 lanes have died a minimum of two times.

Fuck your xp problems, i have problems even getting people on my team that can do anything other than make me lose.

Psychø ßeta1 votes

Jungle nerfs were a mistake. They can nerf jungle, but not by this much and not exp.

Wínters Dawn1 votes

Had a xin last night who rushed mobi boots. He was all over my jg. 3/4th into the game this guys was about 3-4 lvls ahead of me. I felt beyond helpless

Yenn1 votes

Jungle is actually 100% unplayable at Diamond if you have a passive bottom or mid lane; you may as well just go AFK, because you can't contest anything, and the enemy jungle knows it.

These changes need to be entirely reverted, they aren't even achieving their goal of punishing level 2 ganks.

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