Boards›Gameplay

Ashe suffers a lot of damage, burst and mobility for her utility

Mira Arya Enthe··56 votes·5,103 views

Yet Jhin, barring his reload mechanic which due to how his passive works is often advantageous, and if anything makes kiting easier as he is the only ADC who never orbwalks. Jhin does not suffer enough for his utility.

Ashe's DPS takes 1AA or Volley to get her passive on them, 4AAs to get her Q dps, her E is purely utility no damage, she has 0 mobility. "But permaslow!" Jhin has slows and a root plus movement speed.

"Jhin cannot shred tanks!" And Ashe 'cannot' blow up squishies either. Actually both can do both they just specialize differently. It is harder for Ashe to fight squishies and harder for Jhin to fight tanks.

Jhin is so strong in nearly every meta since release. He doesn't suffer enough for the utility he gets. So unless we are planning on giving Ashe a dash and Sivir a range increase. I really feel Jhin should take a bigger hit for the utility he offers his team and himself.

https://na.op.gg/champion/ashe/statistics/adc Win Rate 13th (47.14%) Pick Rate 9th (8.21%)

https://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc Win Rate 4th (51.83%) Pick Rate 1st (54.57%)

EDIT: Come to think of it, Jhin offers more utility than most mages. He is pretty much a bloated AD mage who's damage is from right clicks.

118 Comments

Ok sure but why17 votes

i can admit ashe does pretty hefty damage, but the fact that she needs to work to do damage and that she can only stand still and take shit makes me feel bad for her

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

Well yes. Ashe does great late game DPS, but it ramps up over a fight. She has no burst in her kit. And no mobility. So it balances out fair enough. I'd rather face an amazing Ashe than a crappy Jhin.

Hethalean9 votes

Late game AA based ADCs shouldn't really have a ton of burst. ADCs are generally more for sustained damage.

Targon15 votes

i think Jhin has been over powered for a very long time - both his crit build and his lethality build. What he loses in terms of sustained damage is more than made up for in his raw burst. With him getting so much AD from his passive, his crits are some of the most painful crits in the game (probably tied with Caitlyn's) to a squishy. I've been on the receiving end of around a 1500 damage crit before and it's not nice. His utility is one of the highest for ADCs in the game too with his slows, long range root, and traps.

Personally, I think he's overloaded. Very fun to play, but he has way too much in his kit.

Mira Arya Enthe12 votes

B-B-But only mobile champions can be overloaded D=!!!!!! so the boards told me.

ShaolinToilet3 votes

Jhin will never be changed too much. He's one of the most loved champions. I constantly see posts saying how perfect of a champion he is.

EasternBladeStar6 votes

Jhin is the most well-designed marksman champion, and one of most well-designed characters overall (theme, antics, voice lines etc).

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Jhin is highly overrated. He is an AD mage with an unusual AA method. That is it. As for his character he is a general mix of a V, Phantom of the Opera and cereal killer. He is far from unique. Aside from 4 memes he really brings nothing special to the table other than a massively bloated kit.

resumed2 votes

the only way jhins theme is well designed is if he is the only art loving serial killer who listens to classical music

but hes not

theyre honestly a dime a dozen. the sheer lack of creativity and inventiveness that went into his design rivals that of sona and evelynn

heres a meme https://68.media.tumblr.com/f841a2757d411102f78ea5678cb74dc7/tumblr_okyxiv1jP21u1vkloo1_540.jpg

Ralanr1 votes

You realize that a theme doesn't have to be original to be well designed right?

There's a difference between doing something and doing it well. Otherwise a stick figure drawing of an Italian woman smiling would be of equal significance to the Mona Lisa.

Extreme example I know, but to say Jhin isn't well designed because characters like Hannibal Lector (did he like classical music? Can't remember) existed before him is just lazy.

resumed2 votes

jhins visuals are pretty and the voice acting is high quality and all, but that doesnt make it well designed

why compare jhin to others who fit the bill when i can just say something like "jhin brought nothing new or innovative to his archetype, using the same tired obsessions adapted to a different universe" (also the voice acting quality doesnt make up for the edgy trite that he says)

Papa Andrei2 votes

I think they are doing the right thing with his current nerfs, the slows on his ult being reduced. But the thing is though, his kit just doesn't really function without the utility. His ult is super hard to land, like damn near impossible, why even have a trap that doesn't slow, and what else is w supposed to do?

THE RlVER KlNG12 votes

Uh oh someone finally said it

prepare for a flood of angry Jhin mains demanding you recant and that lethality is the only reason jhin is overperforming

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

Waiting to see Rubick here tbh

THE RlVER KlNG8 votes

Idc if someone likes a champ and wants to offer their pov

but when literally the entire Jhin community is saying lethality is the only reason he's strong when he's been the #1 ADC before Lethality even existed you know something's up (that and his 54% pickrate)

It's Sona all over again

LankPants5 votes

It's Sona all over again

With Sona there is and was a point though, she is garbage in high level play. There's a reason why her pickrate, which is average to above average at lower ranks begins to flatline at plat+ and she sees utterly no competitive play at all. It ultimately depends on where we're setting our parameters, If we balance for Diamond Sona's too weak, Gold she's probably fine and Bronze she's OP and needs nerfs. There's always context needed.

Jhin on the other hand is broken no matter where you look. He's broke all the way from Bronze all the way up to competitive play. There's no context you can give where Jhin isn't OP currently.

notice me Sin pi4 votes

even accounting for the new jhin skin release, 54% pick rate is definitely way too high up.

TyrekGoldenspear8 votes

Just gonna pop in and say that Jhin does suffer for his utility.

He has garbage objective control, low auto speed means he can't duel other ADCs, and in this day and age simple movement speed does not count as mobility. Otherwise we can say Garen is mobile becuase of his Q.

As for the meta... Have you noticed the number of tank metas since Jhin's release?

None. The game has slowly gotten more bursty, which equals squishier champs that deal burst, which means that Jhin can kill them easily with peel.

Can you imagine how Jhin would fare in a tank meta? He'd cry having to deal with super tanky champs that take several reloads to kill.

As for not suffering enough, it's all subjective. Ashe can pressure objectives like nobody's business.

Ok sure but why13 votes

E W A can slaughter any adc late game

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

And if said ADC gets close enough to Jhin, their crits, high atk speed, and lifesteal ensure they win.

Ok sure but why9 votes

no adc gets close to a good jhin

LankPants5 votes

Until he just 4th shots them for 1.5k, because 'balance'.

Mira Arya Enthe13 votes

Tanks were quite strong near the end of S6. When CotC was first released and loads of tanks were temporarily busted he was still a solid pick. And even in LCS where top is essentially Shen, Poppy and Mao half of games, he is still picked. I don't think he would be as bad in a tank meta as people think.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Not tanks, divers that abused CotC to deal their usual heavy damage with extra tankiness. There's a difference.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Well yes, there were a lot of Divers too. But I remember plenty of Zac, Naut, Sion, Poppy and the like.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

True, but could Jhin kill any of them easily? Or were people complaining about how easily they killed adcs? (With the exception of maybe Sion.)

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Nobody could easily kill them during that couple patches. but as an ADC role champion he still had a better play and win rate than most. He just offers far too much utility, most than most mages, with few drawbacks.

Sp33d Zer04 votes

That's not a Jhin problem though, that is EVERY immobile ADC

Hige11 votes

garbage objective control because he has low attack speed? I mean it's not like your 4th auto can't crit a tower or that any and all attack speed on you transforms into AD... a mage (not ziggs) suffers a lot more in order to take turrets, yet that's not really a problem, of course rushing a turret is harder but everything else is so strong currently that it barely matters

Also, Tanks? really? I mean late game yeah his ult feels like it tickles tanks but until then Jhin fares off pretty great against tanks considering that he has %hp phys dmg on his autos and his ult, now consider the fact that he builds lethality, has humongous range for teamfights and to top it off his synergy with deathfire touch is out of this world considering that every "adc" stat gives him bonus AD.

Mf is pretty similar to Jhin but when she ults she's right there, burn your flash and you're good, with Jhin you can dodge the shots I guess but predicting a good Jhin player can be really hard to do, you also get slow if you get hit once -.- sigh

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Compared to a traditional AD that can hit faster than Jhin? And push waves faster as well? Yes he does have garbage objective control.

He has %hp damage on his fourth shot and ult only, all his other autos are completely normal.

If you're a tank that built properly you won't die to his ult. How do I know? I've been a tank and took all four shots. Didn't die. Unless your health was low to begin with or you're squishy, Jhin can't kill you from range.

It's lethality that pushes him over the edge, not his kit. He's a sitting duck for Assassins.

Hige6 votes

Hitting faster only puts you ahead if you got equal amounts of AD, if a champion has 1.00 AS and hits with 50 AD it's the same as if Jhin had 0.50 AS with 100 AD. Of course numbers aren't as exact and that's why Jhin can crit turrets, all in all his ability to push is almost equal to that of a regular ADC, as a matter of fact when compared to someone like Draven, Ezreal and even Vayne, his pushing power is heaps higher thanks to his skills and ratios.

his %hp damage is on his 4th shot, correct, a shot that also crits automatically and benefits from lethality just as much.

The tank thing I've seen it, no arguing that but as I said, predicting Jhin's shot at max distance can be tricky, both to dodge them and to stand in the way, it's not impossible by any means but this means that Jhin warps teamfights by being thousands of units away, that on itself is even more powerful than actually killing a squishy on your last shot

Lethality isn't a problem on Jhin because Lethality enables a lot more champions who requires it to be relevant, you cannot nerf Lethality because you'll throw assassins and other champions who use it optimally out of viability, if Jhin is the best user for lethality and throws the balance out of loop, then HE is the problem

LankPants10 votes

Hitting faster only puts you ahead if you got equal amounts of AD, if a champion has 1.00 AS and hits with 50 AD it's the same as if Jhin had 0.50 AS with 100 AD.

It's actually not the same though, because Jhin can end his animation faster and start walking away forcing the enemy champion to walk to follow to keep range. If you have 2 times Jhin's AS you don't innately get 2 times as many attacks on him, someone like Ashe or Cait with good ways to hold him in their range might, but if you're a shorter ranged ADC he can almost trade AA for AA with you anyway.

Nipsahoy5 votes

Considering he's picked in almost every LCS game there's really no question that he's on the strong side of things. To argue otherwise is foolish.

RexSaur4 votes

Add jinx to that list.

Jinx pays early-mid game impact, no mobility, all delayed spells, all that for some strong late game as a immobile carry.

Meanwhile jhin is the stronger adc laner in the game and he has a fantastic mid and late game too, really literally the only weakness on his kit is lack of a dash, but there are tons of other ads with that same + a lot other weaknesses that dont get all his upsides for free.

EasternBladeStar2 votes

Caitlyn is the strongest laner.

Penns3 votes

Well Jhin doesnt have a global instakill or a pretty heavy slow on everything he does, his utility is pretty low compared to Ashes. He doesnt have a barrage of crits with 3.125 AD scaling either lel

LankPants9 votes

Well Jhin doesnt have a global instakill or a pretty heavy slow on everything he does

Have you read what Jhin's ult does, it's literally a long range instakill with slows attached.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

In which you need to land all 4 shots to instakill, and if you have any experience playing against Xerath, you need only apply the same logic.

LankPants4 votes

Even if a Xerath lands every hit of his R he won't kill with that alone. He needs some other form of poke to go down. Jhin on the other hand can kill a half health squishy with the last shot of his ult, also unlike Xerath's ult it slows you so if you get hit by one you get hit by all.

Papa Andrei4 votes

LOL

Morello and Luden and Xerath can take down any squishy if he hits his ults. Just like Jhin.

Cosmic Warper3 votes

{quoted}

LOL

Morello and Luden and Xerath can take down any squishy if he hits his ults. Just like Jhin.

You can't reason with people on these boards man. They're delusional

The Trent3 votes

I never have fun playing Ashe tho. Maybe it's just me but she's wayyy too boring. Cool character, boring kit.

Melledoneus3 votes

In my opinion there needs to be a nerf to the dominant ADCs across the board (Jhin, MF, Twitch) after the lethality changes.

I love Jhin and Twitch, but they scale much too hard and their damage is too accessible and reliable despite their flaws.

Twitch needs to work for his ultimate's damage, perhaps lowering his base MS or slightly lowering the range on his R would help that. We could also explore a lower AD bonus to his ult, or look at reducing his base AD to make his crits hit less hard with the ridiculous attack speed he gets.

Jhin needs to have some trouble with lack of mobility, so nerfs to his crit MS or slowing his auto animation wind-up a little would tone him down.

As for MF, I don't even know. She does some things way too well, and there are many things to hit that might also make her shit.

the weeaboo1 votes

Or you know you could just nerf lethality...

Melledoneus4 votes

These three are too strong even with regular crit/AS builds.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Ashe is closer to what an adc should be baring haveing a 3 second stun at alittle under twice her auto attack range that can reach across map. jhin is the one who needs the change. Jhin is an ad mage and for some reason riot keeps buffing his auto attacks to put him in the marksmen position when he was meant for midlane the fact that he is one of the top marksmen should be a big red flag to riot nothing wrong with makeing him viable but top midlane ad caster is top adc is a little bs and its not even like ziggs who was just bot for first blood tower jhin is all around best adc because he has boards memes of 1 2 3 ...4

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Hello!

I am just a random who reached lvl 7 Ashe so i shall leave my impression of playing her in the current meta.

She isn't very good against burst. Especially lethality user burst.

RIP.

And on a more serious note. It takes ages for Ashe to reach the items needed to deal any meaningful damage. She basically feels like an Irelia that needs Triforce + botrk if she wants to fight. Except she needs IE-berserkers- ruunan and another item which costs more.

If only she had a build that was as good as the lethality ones in terms of cost efficiency and power spikes :(

PiVoRx2 votes

I remember days of Jhin release when people felt bad for him for being insanely easy to kill, good old times..

Meep Man2 votes

Jhin Utility: Vision from Traps, Root on W, Slow on E, Slow on R

Ashe Utility: Global Long Stun, Permanent AA Slow, Global Vision

Jhin needs nerfs, but this argument is insane on paper. I would be all for removing the slow on Jhin's R personally.

h5LYF41Lam2 votes

ashe got hit hard because riot doesnt want her to be pick or ban in the LCS. riot wants jhin in the LCS so to the banphase he goes.

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