I'm a Fighter but I still Rush Ghost Blade and Duskblade?

taleofsonata·Dec 4, 2017·23 votes·1,139 views

I don't understand Fighters Itemization, why are they rushing supposely AD assassins items? Don't they have Trinity Force/ Black Cleaver, Tiamat? Seeing a Jarvan just Runs toward your AND and R,Q,AA and see them die in 0.5sec sure is something. Same goes to Wukong EQ, W wait 1sec AA or whatever the combo he does to proc Duskblade twice. Are Fighter suppose to have some sort of dueling potential instead of straight up burst? Some of them have ridiculous base stats, I'm looking at you Xin zhao. And Hecarim point and click AA modifier that straight 1shot any squishy.

I think Fighters needs a Rework itemization wise. I'm not saying they should be op but they don't live up to the role of a fighter but instead live up to an assassin.

23 Comments

DurzakaDec 4, 201712 votes

Both Wukong and J4 might be labelled as fighters/bruisers, but they both play and build as assassins.

If you want fighters, you gotta look at people like Darius, or Urgot. The juggernauts of the champion pool.

PoskeDec 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Both Wukong and J4 might be labelled as fighters/bruisers, but they both play and build as assassins.

If you want fighters, you gotta look at people like Darius, or Urgot. The juggernauts of the champion pool.

J4 is essentially 1000 range one shoter who then becomes a tank wiht stoneplate and W

InfernapeDec 4, 20175 votes

Wukong and Jarvan have assassin like scaling and qualities. They both have insane bonus AD scaling. They're both supposed to be damage dealers (so are every other fighter class champion).

IIRC, they're both meant to be champions you can either go full AD on and sacrifice resistances for damage or go for a mix of both and deal some damage while being reasonably durable.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 4, 20171 votes

IIRC, they're both meant to be champions you can either go full AD on and sacrifice resistances for damage or go for a mix of both and deal some damage while being reasonably durable.

could argue for Wukong...

woodvsmurphDec 4, 20175 votes

Blame the meta right now, not the champ in most cases. J4 for example can either go full burst and try to 1-shot a carry, or he can go cleaver into full tank. Anywhere in between - sustainy long duration dueling - will not work. You lack the damage to 1-shot, you lack the durability to survive long enough for sustained damage to matter, and you get out-healed/shielded/peeled by enemy team so that you cannot kill the enemy carry you engaged on regardless of how optimally you played it.

Wukong though?... He's kinda always been more of an assassin who tries to burst you out. If he can't do it all at once, he'll get off a lot of burst, then use stealth to escape before you can do return damage and repeat that process until he can all-in and kill you.

ªTeemoDec 4, 20171 votes

Or he can go Titanic and Cleaver and still 1 shot your carry

woodvsmurphDec 5, 20171 votes

Um, I don't think so. He can get them pretty low, but not 1-shot with just those 2 items for damage. The only way that happens is if the carry is way behind in items and LEVELS and/or j4 is WAY ahead of the curve. Kill them in 2-3 rotations? Sure. In one combo from full hp? No.

YuGiHoDec 4, 20174 votes

item 3134 upgrades Are way too strong and have been for a while, people are seeing it more now because of the runes

ApexInTheCircleDec 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

upgrades Are way too strong and have been for a while, people are seeing it more now because of the runes

Or you know, fighters are kind of outclassed right now by tanks and so bruisers and fighters that have some sort of mobility/stealth/gapcloser are building assassin.

Pierce The VealDec 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

upgrades Are way too strong and have been for a while, people are seeing it more now because of the runes

Not really. Try again.

Yets4240Dec 4, 20172 votes

You might be underestimating the lethality buffs + armor annihilation from the patch. Even tanks have greatly reduced armor values from before unless they build 4+ armor items. On squishies who no longer have armor runes to counter some of the lethality, it can quickly reach near true damage values on every target that is not a tank, while these items have some of the best AD passives/actives, and hefty amounts of flat AD as well to scale their crazy AD ratios.

Pierce The VealDec 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You might be underestimating the lethality buffs + armor annihilation from the patch. Even tanks have greatly reduced armor values from before unless they build 4+ armor items. On squishies who no longer have armor runes to counter some of the lethality, it can quickly reach near true damage values on every target that is not a tank, while these items have some of the best AD passives/actives, and hefty amounts of flat AD as well to scale their crazy AD ratios.

And yet we don't actually see all AD champions getting these items. If they were legitimately as strong as people claim, we would see lots more champions getting them.

Yets4240Dec 4, 20172 votes

Well, we do actually see every single champion with an AD ratio (even blitzcrank) building it at some level. The actual question is how frequently are we seeing it for champions who shouldn't want/need it?

Cam is buying item 3147 , item 3142 in about 3% of games, Darius only 1.8% meanwhile Olaf only gets them in about 1 in 40 games. But would you expect either of those champions to scale well with it, or use it more optimally than all but 6 other items? No, clearly not, those are juffernauts for the most part, and they can rarely afford offense, let alone pure offense like these items, and they would simply scale better with other options 100% of the time. . . but item 3147 , and item 3142 are still picked regardless. What about Garen's 23.8% purchase rate, or GP's 73.9% purchase rate

Now, I personally think what is more concerning is Draven purchasing them 38.5% of the time. Should a ranged character (who gets less of these items a result) who is designed to scale off of AS and Crit be purchasing melee assassin items almost every other game? Vayne for example, who can use the items much better due to her stealth only picks them up in 1.5% of games. Does this perhaps say something about Draven and his ability to abuse these items? Does it say soemthing about the items themselves to still be so utterly appealing as to be in Draven's top 5 items while being designed for almost antithetical classes, and specifically limited for ranged champions such as Draven. What about this %%%%? Jhin building Ghostblade more than any other item, at a rate of 71.7% of his games, and picking up a Duskblade in over a third to boot. Or how about this motherfucker, Jayce who builds item 3142 in 87.8% of all games by itself, and then item 3147 over two thirds of the time as well, with a 67.5% pick rate. These two items are his two most purchased, effectively making him a ranged assassin.

J4 himself only gets them in 40% of games, but that's totally fine, right? Duskblade is totally balanced as his second most built item, on someone who was still had the tag of tank as his primary until a few months ago. Everyone bitching about Pantheon lately? SURPRISE! Guess what his top two items are? You guessed it, item 3142 at 73.3%, and item 3147 at 60%. The next closest item is item 3071 at only 50% pick rate.

Pierce The VealDec 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well, we do actually see every single champion with an AD ratio (even blitzcrank) building it at some level. The actual question is how frequently are we seeing it for champions who shouldn't want/need it?

Cam is buying , in about 3% of games, Darius only 1.8% meanwhile Olaf only gets them in about 1 in 40 games. But would you expect either of those champions to scale well with it, or use it more optimally than all but 6 other items? No, clearly not, those are juffernauts for the most part, and they can rarely afford offense, let alone pure offense like these items, and they would simply scale better with other options 100% of the time. . . but , and are still picked regardless. What about Garen's 23.8% purchase rate, or GP's 73.9% purchase rate

Now, I personally think what is more concerning is purchasing them 38.5% of the time. Should a ranged character (who gets less of these items a result) who is designed to scale off of AS and Crit be purchasing melee assassin items almost every other game? Vayne for example, who can use the items much better due to her stealth only picks them up in 1.5% of games. Does this perhaps say something about Draven and his ability to abuse these items? Does it say soemthing about the items themselves to still be so utterly appealing as to be in Draven's top 5 items while being designed for almost antithetical classes, and specifically limited for ranged champions such as Draven. What about this %%%%? building Ghostblade more than any other item, at a rate of 71.7% of his games, and picking up a Duskblade in over a third to boot. Or how about this motherfucker, who builds in 87.8% of all games by itself, and then over two thirds of the time as well, with a 67.5% pick rate. These two items are his two most purchased, effectively making him a ranged assassin.

J4 himself only gets them in 40% of games, but that's totally fine, right? Duskblade is totally balanced as his second most built item, on someone who was still had the tag of tank as his primary until a few months ago. Everyone bitching about Pantheon lately? SURPRISE! Guess what his top two items are? You guessed it, at 73.3%, and at 60%. The next closest item is at only 50% pick rate.

Have you at all considered that these items aren't the problem, but the champions/game time/resists are?

You know what we're seeing in AP champions as a parallel? Liandries+sorc boots and no void staff.

This isn't an issue with the items. This is a current problem in the game.

I personally think it's a move in the right direction, just ranged champions need to not abuse the item as well.

And perhaps in the case of Jarvan, it's time to look at actully making him a fighter instead of a tanky ad assassin— something he always was?

Yets4240Dec 6, 20171 votes

There is clear and direct correlation between purchase rate of these items, and winrate of these champions. In essence, the strongest AD champions right now, are largely those who can abuse one or both of these items, and those who can use these items are almost always better off going this route, than any or most other pure damage items.

Also bare in mind that virtually all of the biggest abusers are ranged and not melee.

I think it's pretty clear the items need to be changed.

Pierce The VealDec 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There is clear and direct correlation between purchase rate of these items, and winrate of these champions. In essence, the strongest AD champions right now, are largely those who can abuse one or both of these items, and those who can use these items are almost always better off going this route, than any or most other pure damage items.

Also bare in mind that virtually all of the biggest abusers are ranged and not melee.

I think it's pretty clear the items need to be changed.

Then make them fucking melee only instead of nerfing them.

Done. Fixed.

Teridax68Dec 4, 20174 votes

The point we're at right now is that tanky builds for fighters are generally not that great, and damage is high enough that, with a few specialized items, some fighters turn into assassins. Whereas juggernauts are stuck in the former camp for the most part (they can't jump to their targets and one-shot them), divers fall into the latter, which is why the likes of Hecarim, Jarvan, Wukong, and so on are building Lethality. I agree that fighters need updates to their itemization, but in addition to that we need a damage check on League right now, as it's often far too easy for champions to die in a couple of seconds, sometimes less.

PopcornBunniDec 4, 20172 votes

It isn't just fighters.

Poppy against any laner that rushes item 3071 can not build tank without compromising her gold value and giving the enemy free dueling power over her, so item 3147 tackle Q combo is her only out to fight against it. Duskblade is much overtuned right now, allowing tanks to 100-0 combo adcs by itself, let alone combined with item 3078 item 3053

ªTeemoDec 4, 20171 votes

Please don't tell me people are actually buying duskblade on poppy

PopcornBunniDec 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=JIHADIST TEEMO,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5zVIRi95,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-12-04T21:05:19.194+0000)

Please don't tell me people are actually buying duskblade on poppy

I do only in those matchups that rush Cleaver and hate it. Instead of there being a proper option to counter the item (Which bought by itself counters entire builds), I have to rely on a broken mechanic that effectively turns literally any character into an assassin.