Do you guys want a balanced game or a creative one?

U R Good At Game··4 votes·3,252 views

Would you rather the game have the potential to be balanced or be able to do whatever you want in an imbalanced game?

I ask this because this is the core issue to a lot of league's balancing issues. They want you to be able to do X Y Z all at the same time so neither X Y OR Z are balanced on their own. Here is an example of a game that would be more balanced or have the potential for balance but less creative:

  • Certain items are class restricted (think about how steraks is now melee only and how good that was!)
  • Champion lane restrictions (Viktor top? Yasuo ADC? Twitch/Kaisa JG? NO MORE! #HowDoYouBalanceAGameForThat)
  • Different runes for each champion type (Mages have their own runes, adcs theirs, etc)

These are just a few examples. Common balance issues in this game are caused because champions abuse tools that were never meant for them and cause disruptive gameplay. If riot had more control over how champions, items and runes were used they would no doubt be able to balance the game in a healthier position because the number of scenarios to balance for is cut drastically. Instead of having to balance X champion for top, mid, adc and JG if you only have to balance them for 1 the odds they will be more balanced in that position are pretty good.

This is true for items too. Riot has to balance tank items, assassin items, fighter items and ADC items knowing that any other class can take those items which often leads to unexpected imbalanced champions. They then nerf these items but then the original class intended to use those items get's fucked.

60 Comments

DOUBLE TAPPED E5 votes

I'd like a compromise between the two, if I'm being completely honest. I want a game that is as balanced as possible while still allowing for creative strategic options and innovation.

ChargeItDownMid5 votes

The two are not mutually exclusive. Dota managed to be a more balanced game specifically because it allows more item and role diversity for each champion. The key to balancing a moba is to embrace diversity and not to limit it.

Jamaree2 votes

{quoted}

The two are not mutually exclusive. Dota managed to be a more balanced game specifically because it allows more item and role diversity for each champion. The key to balancing a moba is to embrace diversity and not to limit it.

Is that why there are characters in DoTA also not played in solo queue or pro play and have win rates lower then our lowest win rates with champions who have highs higher then our high, is that balance?

IP Masquerena2 votes

Um....there were like 2 or 3 heroes in the last The International never picked or banned, but those heavily differ from what solo que isn't normally picking.

Winrates from stat sites mean jack. At one point, forums and reddit were crying that Earth Spirit has a sub 43% win rate and IceFrog nerfed him even more. Why did he get even more nerfs? Because players who mastered the hero had winrates of over 70% on him, that's how strong he was, and in pro play, he was 100% pick ban, with 95% winrate in the games he got picked.

Another good example could be my main, Templar Assassin. If you check her general winrate, it's around 43%, but her winrate in high elo is 50%, while she is always a staple in pro play, as there never was any tournament where she wasn't picked a bunch of times.

(Azir syndrome anyone?)

Unlike Riot, IceFrog doesn't balance for low elo, only for high elo, because it's dumb to do that. Riki was and still is, one of the most hated heroes in low elo, but noone counters him, when all you need is less than 200 gold to make him almost useless in low elo, but hey, noone buys those items, so of course champs will have stupid winrates because of the majority of the playerbase being low elo.

When Phantom Assassin was first time buffed to the point of being high elo viable, her low elo winrate jumped from 50% to almost 65% while her high elo winrate went from 46% to 51%. Yes, the buffs were major, but what IceFrog did was buff her strong or average part, without buffing her weak parts, she's still squishy a f and she is also very very vurnerable to magic damage, but hey, elo solo que don't care about counters. She was supposed to be a mid/late game carry, so what IceFrog did was put more umph on her mid game spikes.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Um....there were like 2 or 3 heroes in the last The International never picked or banned, but those heavily differ from what solo que isn't normally picking.

Winrates from stat sites mean jack. At one point, forums and reddit were crying that Earth Spirit has a sub 43% win rate and IceFrog nerfed him even more. Why did he get even more nerfs? Because players who mastered the hero had winrates of over 70% on him, that's how strong he was, and in pro play, he was 100% pick ban, with 95% winrate in the games he got picked.

Another good example could be my main, Templar Assassin. If you check her general winrate, it's around 43%, but her winrate in high elo is 50%, while she is always a staple in pro play, as there never was any tournament where she wasn't picked a bunch of times.

(Azir syndrome anyone?)

Unlike Riot, IceFrog doesn't balance for low elo, only for high elo, because it's dumb to do that. Riki was and still is, one of the most hated heroes in low elo, but noone counters him, when all you need is less than 200 gold to make him almost useless in low elo, but hey, noone buys those items, so of course champs will have stupid winrates because of the majority of the playerbase being low elo.

When Phantom Assassin was first time buffed to the point of being high elo viable, her low elo winrate jumped from 50% to almost 65% while her high elo winrate went from 46% to 51%. Yes, the buffs were major, but what IceFrog did was buff her strong or average part, without buffing her weak parts, she's still squishy a f and she is also very very vurnerable to magic damage, but hey, elo solo que don't care about counters. She was supposed to be a mid/late game carry, so what IceFrog did was put more umph on her mid game spikes.

Yeah, and it is that mindset of balancing around high elo that drives a massive amount of people away, that difficulty of enjoyment as you learn hurts their numbers.

It is the best way to balance a game, but it isn't how you bring people in.

IP Masquerena2 votes

That's kinda the point for Dota, it is the "hard core" Moba, it's the one with a steep learning curve.

I wasn't a pro of very high elo (atm on a hiatus for a long time, but still playing some every once in a while with friends).

When I first joined the game, I got ranked with an MMR of 500, that's B3 equivalent, I kept fluctuating between B2-B4, then dropped to very low B5, could rank up, I just wasn't good. Took a break from ranked almost a year, where I watched vods, coaching vids, practiced my basics, and went from that B5 to P2 (at that time, now it would only be around P5) in 1 month, with also having a job. I abused mistakes made by low elo players, focused on what I can do better, got accused of hacking (by players using invis and me spending the 200 gold needed to counter them, or players with obvious skill shots that are easily dodged if you predict them.)

The learning curve is steep, but so is the reward. Think it like this, Dota is Dark Souls, while LoL is your usual MMO. Yes, there are players who will be driven away by the fact that it's hard, but others will be attracted by it.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

That's kinda the point for Dota, it is the "hard core" Moba, it's the one with a steep learning curve.

I wasn't a pro of very high elo (atm on a hiatus for a long time, but still playing some every once in a while with friends).

When I first joined the game, I got ranked with an MMR of 500, that's B3 equivalent, I kept fluctuating between B2-B4, then dropped to very low B5, could rank up, I just wasn't good. Took a break from ranked almost a year, where I watched vods, coaching vids, practiced my basics, and went from that B5 to P2 (at that time, now it would only be around P5) in 1 month, with also having a job. I abused mistakes made by low elo players, focused on what I can do better, got accused of hacking (by players using invis and me spending the 200 gold needed to counter them, or players with obvious skill shots that are easily dodged if you predict them.)

The learning curve is steep, but so is the reward. Think it like this, Dota is Dark Souls, while LoL is your usual MMO. Yes, there are players who will be driven away by the fact that it's hard, but others will be attracted by it.

Quite, but will it attract enough to see the numbers that LoL currently has?

IP Masquerena2 votes

Different type caters to a different audience.

First of all, you can't say something is bad because it caters to a different kind of audience.

And second of all, you don't know the numbers in LoL. At least Dota 2 makes it's numbers visible to everyone, LoL doesn't, so LoL may have more players, or less players, you can't say since it's impossible to know, so your argument is invalid.

LoL is just more casually mainstream, that's why you hear so much about it.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Different type caters to a different audience.

First of all, you can't say something is bad because it caters to a different kind of audience.

Didn't say it was bad, said it was what more people wanted.

And second of all, you don't know the numbers in LoL. At least Dota 2 makes it's numbers visible to everyone, LoL doesn't, so LoL may have more players, or less players, you can't say since it's impossible to know, so your argument is invalid.

We can actually, we just have to use third party sites like this one.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/na/current/platinum/plus/grid/

LoL is just more casually mainstream, that's why you hear so much about it.

And play it.

IP Masquerena3 votes

3rd party sides are not official data, so you can't say how much off they are. Until get the actual data from Riot, you can't say for sure.

When Dota added some markers to simply things and make it a bit easier for players to learn the game, the vast majority of the community threw a backlash, to no avail, but still, because they didn't join Dota to play a simple game, they joined Dota because it's a hard to learn game.

The same way LoL's community doesn't want the game to be harder to learn, Dota's community is against making that game easier to play.

And again, since we don't have official numbers from Riot, you can't say which is more played, but one thing you can't deny is that no matter which is more played, when it comes to high end play, especially the pro play, LoL is nowhere near Dota's success.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

3rd party sides are not official data, so you can't say how much off they are. Until get the actual data from Riot, you can't say for sure.

Where are you getting your info from, because all I can find is third party sites for DoTA 2's numbers as well.

When Dota added some markers to simply things and make it a bit easier for players to learn the game, the vast majority of the community threw a backlash, to no avail, but still, because they didn't join Dota to play a simple game, they joined Dota because it's a hard to learn game.

The same way LoL's community doesn't want the game to be harder to learn, Dota's community is against making that game easier to play.

And again, since we don't have official numbers from Riot, you can't say which is more played, but one thing you can't deny is that no matter which is more played, when it comes to high end play, especially the pro play, LoL is nowhere near Dota's success.

I will give you the higher end play part though.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Steam has the numbers, and that's not a 3rd party, as Steam owns Dota 2.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Steam has the numbers, and that's not a 3rd party, as Steam owns Dota 2.

Where by the way?

IP Masquerena1 votes

https://store.steampowered.com/stats/Steam-Game-and-Player-Statistics?l=english

That's one of those, but has been changed to only show today's active playerbase and peak. There was somewhere where you could see more details like player counts and peaks over the years, but for those, there is a detail you have to keep in mind: Dota's 2 ranked system is now locked behind a mobile phone, so many smurf accounts were abandoned, which did reduce the "player count" by a bunch. That was done to prevent MMR boosting.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

https://store.steampowered.com/stats/Steam-Game-and-Player-Statistics?l=english

That's one of those, but has been changed to only show today's active playerbase and peak. There was somewhere where you could see more details like player counts and peaks over the years, but for those, there is a detail you have to keep in mind: Dota's 2 ranked system is now locked behind a mobile phone, so many smurf accounts were abandoned, which did reduce the "player count" by a bunch. That was done to prevent MMR boosting.

I actually needed that link by the way, so thank you.

IP Masquerena1 votes

You're welcome.

U R Good At Game1 votes

The other thing I will say is, most games start turning more and more to casual players as they for-see their own doom. Every giant game that has fallen off has done this a couple years before they "died" or lost the majority of their playerbase. Every time the excuse by the fans was "this game is huge, it cant just die, look at it's player count".

The thing that sucks about casual players is that they are the most finicky and willing to jump off of your game when something they don't like happens. It's the competitive players grinding ranked for years that stick out the good and the bad. Once you make your game so casual that hardcore players continue to leave, the casual players will just game hop to the next big thing and now your game is dead.

I can't tell you whether league is purposefully doing this but it's following a trend I've seen with countless games before it. I won't say it will "die" but it's going to permanently wound itself to where it will not be "league" again if it continues.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-26T20:57:05.549+0000)

The other thing I will say is, most games start turning more and more to casual players as they for-see their own doom. Every giant game that has fallen off has done this a couple years before they "died" or lost the majority of their playerbase. Every time the excuse by the fans was "this game is huge, it cant just die, look at it's player count".

Games this size don't die though, you don't die when you reach this size and well reach. We have WoW as a perfect example of this. Playerbase will wane as things change, but they don't die.

The thing that sucks about casual players is that they are the most finicky and willing to jump off of your game when something they don't like happens. It's the competitive players grinding ranked for years that stick out the good and the bad. Once you make your game so casual that hardcore players continue to leave, the casual players will just game hop to the next big thing and now your game is dead.

Yeah, but it is also those casual players who spend the most and keep the company afloat.

I can't tell you whether league is purposefully doing this but it's following a trend I've seen with countless games before it. I won't say it will "die" but it's going to permanently wound itself to where it will not be "league" again if it continues.

Eh.

U R Good At Game1 votes

If you are using wow as a great example I don't think this conversation can go anywhere. People didn't wane as the game went on, you can see the exact patches that KILLED massive numbers of subscribers at a time. Losing upwards of today, ~85% of their player base to be a casual game.

If you are okay with a game going in such a bad direction it kills 85% of it's player base then I guess the argument is over at it's core.

"I only poisoned 85% of his drink but the 15% was fine so the drink is still good." Like idk what to say to that.

You talk about sustaining numbers but then reference a game that directly killed off 85% as a good example. like I just don't know anymore

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T22:22:11.264+0000)

If you are using wow as a great example I don't think this conversation can go anywhere. People didn't wane as the game went on, you can see the exact patches that KILLED massive numbers of subscribers at a time. Losing upwards of today, ~85% of their player base to be a casual game.

And yet during that time, they never once stopped being the most played MMORPG on the planet.

If you are okay with a game going in such a bad direction it kills 85% of it's player base then I guess the argument is over at it's core.

"I only poisoned 85% of his drink but the 15% was fine so the drink is still good." Like idk what to say to that.

You talk about sustaining numbers but then reference a game that directly killed off 85% as a good example. like I just don't know anymore

I just don't think games are sustainable as a means of only adhering to just a hardcore market.

U R Good At Game1 votes

Being the smartest kid in the dumb class isn't an accomplishment. The genre w/o WoW is so bad that after WoW started hemorrhaging subscribers you saw the genre as a whole lose numbers because of how much of the genre was literally WoW. WoW wasn't an mmo, it was the mmo.

League doesn't really have that reality. While league is the biggest it doesn't have anywhere near the lead WoW had on it's competition, if league loses 85% of it's players it will become irrelevant where as WoW can lose that much and still be on top because it's the king of peons. It's literally just that now. The best turd in a shit stack.

I just don't think games are sustainable as a means of only adhering to just a hardcore market.

DOTA 2 is pretty successful doing it and WoW was climbing UNTIL it adhered to a casual market and you can even see the exact turning point down to the patch. It's not really an opinion of if it can, it's possible and is being done as well as has been done before.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

Quite, but will it attract enough to see the numbers that LoL currently has?

Who cares if it does or doesn't? Its one of the most popular games on steam and one of the biggest e sports in the world. It doesn't matter if it gets as many people as league does. Because it will always draw people looking for something else or people who are even fed up with leagues staleness.

Jamaree3 votes

People say they want a balanced game but what people want is the creative one. Perfect balance isn’t possible in video games like this, a balanced game would be two characters with the exact same moves, exact same power, exact same everything from height, to reach to skill set, but that isn’t enjoyable past a point.

Case in point, the original karate master for NES was balanced perfectly, but in that balance brought boring, in turn you can a game like street fighter 2 which is incredibly unbalanced as shit, guess which one people would rather see at EVO?

U R Good At Game2 votes

No body aims for perfect balance its the potential for balance as stated. The more creative freedom you have to go something like AD Singed Mid the more possible scenarios riot has to account for and possibly miss and create disruptive situations.

Quinn dominated top for almost 13 patches in a row pretty heavily only having a single match-up with a negative win rate. Mordekaiser held bot last season for something like 7 patches uncontested. Swain was literally a free win for a couple patches, etc. All being caused by trying to create champions that can go in 3+ roles. Irelia mid pre-nerfs after rework was a free win. Playing against those champions wasn't fun, often lacked counterplay and ruined that lane for most during the patches these happened.

These champions had absurd win rates, high pick rates with very few match ups that they statisically lost. All for the sake of being able to go anywhere they wanted. Sure they get nerfed after a couple months but that is months of bad gameplay being experience and that design just creates a situation where more OP picks will occur after you nerf that. Sometimes it even takes half a year or more too. If you still want the creative route thats fine, just clearing up the point because the point isn't to have perfect 1:1 balance, it's too erase completely avoidable balance issues by sacrificing some freedoms.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-26T04:46:35.099+0000)

No body aims for perfect balance its the potential for balance as stated. The more creative freedom you have to go something like AD Singed Mid the more possible scenarios riot has to account for and possibly miss and create disruptive situations.

Indeed, but people want this kind of thing without realizing that if they want a balance experience, a TRULY balanced experience, these like this would go, but that isn't what people want.

Quinn dominated top for almost 13 patches in a row pretty heavily only having a single match-up with a negative win rate. Mordekaiser held bot last season for something like 7 patches uncontested. Swain was literally a free win for a couple patches, etc. All being caused by trying to create champions that can go in 3+ roles. Irelia mid pre-nerfs after rework was a free win. Playing against those champions wasn't fun, often lacked counterplay and ruined that lane for most during the patches these happened.

These champions had absurd win rates, high pick rates with very few match ups that they statisically lost. All for the sake of being able to go anywhere they wanted. Sure they get nerfed after a couple months but that is months of bad gameplay being experience and that design just creates a situation where more OP picks will occur after you nerf that. Sometimes it even takes half a year or more too. If you still want the creative route thats fine, just clearing up the point because the point isn't to have perfect 1:1 balance, it's too erase completely avoidable balance issues by sacrificing some freedoms.

Easier said then done, because now look at the state of some of those champions, Quinn is back to be a niche pick barely seen, Mordekaiser is effectively a garbage can, though Swain is in a decent place.

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-26T04:53:18.691+0000)

Yeah it works for DOTA because they only balance for one audience, competetive high elo. If riot would do that then yes, we could have a creative and "balanced" game too. At least at the higher end. SoloQ for low elo would be more a shit fest but it always is sooooo idk lol.

IF league ever wants balance they need to balance for one audience or sacrifice creativity to fix the game.

I utterly agree with this statement though, it would create a more balanced game HOWEVER, it would be at the cost of enjoyment for a LARGE amount of the playerbase the far larger part of the playerbase which are casual.

U R Good At Game1 votes

Fair enough. The one other thing I want to touch on there tho is:

Easier said then done, because now look at the state of some of those champions, Quinn is back to be a niche pick barely seen, Mordekaiser is effectively a garbage can, though Swain is in a decent place.

In my opinion, I think those champions go into niche form because of that freedom to go anywhere. If they make morde strong enough to go top or mid and be a great pick he is going to a monster in bot-lane. If they make quinn strong enough to a monster bot lane she will be UNSTOPPABLE in top again.

Made-Up Scenario: Like if Morde has a 60% win rate ADC and a 49% win rate top but they nerf him because he is an OP "adc", his home top win rate will now fall and become an niche pick. But if they re-buff Morde to get his top-lane back into action, he will go back to a 60% win rate ADC.

But I will agree that this could upset casual players but at some point, if riot truly wants to grow their e-sport seen more and more like they have said, at some point, they will need to not cater to casual players over competitive players. Imagine a traditional sport completely screwing over it's pro or college scene to cater to high-school and middle-school play. Riot has said they want to see their LCS continue to grow and be seen as a sport but I don't think it will be able to support itself if the game keeps getting more and more casual.

It's a good plan for a game company but a bad plan for a sports company.

Frosted Tips3 votes

So this isn't a black and white issue. Creative vs. Perfect balance is a spectrum. I think Dota does it horribly with it being like 80-90% creative and very little balance. I personally think that if we were to choose a rank to balance things around it should be the where around 80% are below the threshold and 20% are above which I think is low to mid plat. That is just my opinion. It is wrong to many, but that is what I would like.

vgamedude2 votes

{quoted}

So this isn't a black and white issue. Creative vs. Perfect balance is a spectrum. I think Dota does it horribly with it being like 80-90% creative and very little balance. I personally think that if we were to choose a rank to balance things around it should be the where around 80% are below the threshold and 20% are above which I think is low to mid plat. That is just my opinion. It is wrong to many, but that is what I would like.

Very little balance? Nearly every hero was picked during their tournament. Compare that to league.

Frosted Tips1 votes

To be perfectly balanced would mean that the top and the bottom tier players all value the playable characters which is not the case. They balance purely for pro play which is not what many league players want. So again balance is not black and white.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

To be perfectly balanced would mean that the top and the bottom tier players all value the playable characters which is not the case. They balance purely for pro play which is not what many league players want. So again balance is not black and white.

That's your definition of balance, besides is dota balance for noobs any worse than league? At least dota has many varying strategies and viable ways to play.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Again we can't even agree what perfect balance is, so this even proves that I'm right. It is not a black and white issue.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

Again we can't even agree what perfect balance is, so this even proves that I'm right. It is not a black and white issue.

Well is every league champion viable to the degree they are in dota at the level league supposedly balances at?

Frosted Tips1 votes

League is not balanced around one particular level of play. Certain champions are balanced around certain levels of play. Pro play balanced champions like Azir and Galio and then lower level balance lole MasterYi and Garen

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

League is not balanced around one particular level of play. Certain champions are balanced around certain levels of play. Pro play balanced champions like Azir and Galio and then lower level balance lole MasterYi AMD Garen

So if it isnt balanced around low levels or top whats it balanced around? Nothing?

Frosted Tips1 votes

They balance to try to make it where each champion doesn't feel overbearing in any one level of play. So when Azir was balanced around a low diamond level in the pro scene he was unstoppable and when Garen got to be balanced at a Diamond level he was destroying the lower tier players.

vgamedude1 votes

I'd rather have lots of variety and differing strategies. Dota manages to do that and balance very well but I haven't played much of it.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

Every time someone talks about dota balance I see that they dont care about solo queue which I would love for riot to do. Imagine having 60% winrate zed because they finally made him good in high elo again.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Galatea Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-26T01:46:55.299+0000)

Every time someone talks about dota balance I see that they dont care about solo queue which I would love for riot to do. Imagine having 60% winrate zed because they finally made him good in high elo again.

Said it once I will say it again, low elo would hate high elo balance.

Automated Riven2 votes

Im low elo, I would prefer the the game was balanced around high elo. If bad balance upsets me I can just improve at the game.

Jamaree2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T04:59:29.906+0000)

Im low elo, I would prefer the the game was balanced around high elo. If bad balance upsets me I can just improve at the game.

You would, you are in the extreme minority.

U R Good At Game1 votes

I don't really think it works like that though. Let's say they buff zed, akali, and whoever for high elo but they are broken in low elo and have 60%+ win rates. Do you really improve as a player if you just abuse the fact these are broken in your elo and climb? That would just lead to more bad players in elo's they don't belong.

Automated Riven1 votes

It may end up that 1 tricks end up with artificially inflated elo. But players who don't try to abuse those champions aren't really effected. I would just stick to 1 tricking riven anyhow.

vgamedude1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Galatea Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-26T01:46:55.299+0000)

Every time someone talks about dota balance I see that they dont care about solo queue which I would love for riot to do. Imagine having 60% winrate zed because they finally made him good in high elo again.

If that's their secret. I didn't know that's what they did. I haven't played much dota at all (trying to learn via bot games) but from what I have seen of the way its played at a pro level and even solo queue moderate MMR level its way more varied and interesting than league.

Its really too bad the game just feels strange to me, I'm very accustomed to how league feels and plays, but since we'll apparently never get a properly diverse game I'll have to learn dota if I want that.

SwiftKitten881 votes

this thread is extremely misleading

a balanced game grants MORE creativity because if the game it balanced them more thing can be effective an "unbalanced" game mean there is no "creativity" but it forces anyone who wants any remote chance in winning to play a specific way or lose, or just not care about winning.

the more balanced the game it the more creative u can get with your builds... the less balanced the game is.. the more your forced to stick with the only things that can give u any chance in hell of winning.

balance is more important in the end. because balance leads to "creativity". were as you can creatively come up with a horrible idea, and if you do it it wont work and u try something else , but if riot decides to do it.. then they break something.

U R Good At Game1 votes

Idk, current/past examples:

  • Buff quinn so she can ADC again, oh wait, shes a free win top lane again.

  • Buff morde so he can mid/top again, oh wait, hes a free win adc again.

  • Buff heim so he can mid again, oh wait, hes a free win apc again.

  • Buff steraks for bruisers, oh wait, ADCs are abusing it again (they literally class locked this item away from marksman)

  • Buff literally any MR item for tanks, oh wait, mages are abusing it. (hence the MR item reworks)

  • Buff poke/harass mages, oh wait, they are abusing support again.

I could go on until riot told me not to type anymore. All of these balance issues listed they have had or are having are directly caused by situations where champions go where they are literally not designed to go or build.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-10-26T21:13:58.693+0000)

Idk, current/past examples:

  • Buff quinn so she can ADC again, oh wait, shes a free win top lane again.

  • Buff morde so he can mid/top again, oh wait, hes a free win adc again.

  • Buff heim so he can mid again, oh wait, hes a free win apc again.

  • Buff steraks for bruisers, oh wait, ADCs are abusing it again (they literally class locked this item away from marksman)

  • Buff literally any MR item for tanks, oh wait, mages are abusing it. (hence the MR item reworks)

  • Buff poke/harass mages, oh wait, they are abusing support again.

I could go on until riot told me not to type anymore. All of these balance issues listed they have had or are having are directly caused by situations where champions go where they are literally not designed to go or build.

you see the problem with your statement?

every suggestion started with "buff"

thats the issue riot has.

somthing is too strong " lets buff "X" rather than fixing the actaul issue by nerfing the OP thing

then they keep doing that and suddenly Y is worthless becuase everying BUT why has been buffed.. so they then buff Y.. but also byff Z and make Z broken so they buff X and Y again to match Z

and the everything is broken becuase nothing was designed to work in a world where everyone gets 1 shot, so an item that made it so you died in 7 adc auto instead of 10 now is the difference between dying in 2-3 ( this is what season 7 was like)

even my own main Nidalee is an assassin... what what it was like in season 4 and the start of 5? i would lane.. i would go in.. trade.. make take 1/3 to 1/2 of thier hp. and we would back off and try again..

nowadays its.. if i go in vs an adc or a mage or an assassin.. they either get 1 shot... or they dont and then they kill me..

if i go in vs a bruiser... then something is wrong with me bruiser there is no way in hell i can win that.[sg-zephyr]

but it used to be somthing nid would do.. EVERY lane would do... we would go in and TRADE

champs like Darius were very good in extended trades becuase thier bleed got stronger the longer you were trading.

no one one except top lane EVER "trades" anymore

its always : 1 one of u dies 2 one of u is forced to back 3 one of you stays low and baits the other person to dive them then somone dies becuase the jungler either ganked and killed the person trying to dive. or the jungle abandoned them and the guy got dived

nid used to "go in and "go out" THATS what asains did... they would go in.. the reatreat to the shadows for another chance to strike.. it wasnt "

"POOF HERE I AM"

btw your dead in .3 seconds with no counterplay

U R Good At Game2 votes

No one can say the game hasn't power creeped but I'm not convinced reverting that would fix it these toxic and unwinnable match ups we have occuring due to lane mismatch and items completely shutting out champions or being abused by other lanes.

Quinn being a great example again. There is not a situation where quinn top isn't toxic to play against unless she is nerfed into irrelevancy. Her champion design directly counters almost every meta top laner in the game and disrupts the entire flow of the lane. Same with morde or swain adc. There is no point where them being meta bot lane will not be toxic to lane against unless they are nerfed into irrelevancy.

Idk I would just be totally fine if I was never allowed to play quinn top or never allowed to plain swain adc to ensure those lanes weren't completely un-fun, unwinnable and depressing to play in.

I couldn't have been prouder when riot said "Adcs, you can no longer use steraks". Because otherwise adcs would have FUCKED top AGAIN because adcs keep abusing top lane items and summoners until they get nerfed and its f---king retarded.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wYRZBFj,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T22:02:11.730+0000)

No one can say the game hasn't power creeped but I'm not convinced reverting that would fix it these toxic and unwinnable match ups we have occuring due to lane mismatch and items completely shutting out champions or being abused by other lanes.

Quinn being a great example again. There is not a situation where quinn top isn't toxic to play against unless she is nerfed into irrelevancy. Her champion design directly counters almost every meta top laner in the game and disrupts the entire flow of the lane. Same with morde or swain adc. There is no point where them being meta bot lane will not be toxic to lane against unless they are nerfed into irrelevancy.

Idk I would just be totally fine if I was never allowed to play quinn top or never allowed to plain swain adc to ensure those lanes weren't completely un-fun, unwinnable and depressing to play in.

I couldn't have been prouder when riot said "Adcs, you can no longer use steraks". Because otherwise adcs would have FUCKED top AGAIN because adcs keep abusing top lane items and summoners until they get nerfed and its f---king retarded.

yes but the REASON its like that is BECAUSE they added new items like item 3095 and item 3147.

back in the day counterplay would exist becuase you wouldnt get completly 1 shot before the vault cc was over .. but at the same time you oppoent wouldnt one shit you in return if it didn't

both players would live, and it was like this in every lane

nowadays if she can do it she is OP becuase EVERYONE can do it but now she is the BEST at doing it

where as if she cant do it.. then she cant and other people can

the cuase is damage creep... until riot gets it trhough the thick heads that damage needs to be lowered, then champions designed that workes in the past just wont work

take Nocturne for example... 4 years ago.. his ulti was fine

he dives in.. and he takes half your hp.. good for picking off low hp targets.. if your above half hp... then he damages you but donest always kill you.

his vision makes it so one one who isnt already on the same sceen can reallyt come help you.

but bring that forward to now?

suddenl he can kill you from full hp.. and they counterplay is gone, you can't go ANYWHERE on the map without the risk of his 1 shotting you unless u saw your ally just died and u know you have 40 seconds.

the higher and hgher damage goes the more issues are cuases that werent there prevoiusly

i mean if damage is to the people when u can deal 30k in one auto.. then what the point of tanks? whats thier role.

when u bring damage too far the fundamentals of the game breaks, and riot is chaning and creating new champsion for a game thats damage is completely different than the old game

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