Kassadin, Maokai, Poppy and Yasuo don't have scaling Magic…

Dr Poro · 2015-07-31T17:24:19.763Z

Riot has been making the champs that scale or do not scale with Mres more consistent based on whether they ahve ranged auto attacks or not. Hybrids such as Kayle, Jayce and Nidalee lost their Mres/lvl while melees such as Shen and Singed recently (finally) received theirs. However, there are still 4 melee champs left in the dark. But do they currently need it? actually used to have Mres/lvl but this got removed as his first nerf during season 3. Kassadin was ridiculously OP and his kit was broken, so they nerfed every aspect of him while keeping his "identity blink" until they figured that they had to nerf his mobility. So they started nerfing his ult many times. What they forgot to do, however, was reverting some old nerfs that are now just unnecessary or overkill. At 42% winrate, he is currently one of the 3 worst midlaners in soloQ. He's supposed to be an anti mage, but currently he only has a magic resist shield on his Q. That doesn't protect him from the constant harass he receives. Bringing back his Mres/lvl seems incredibly logical to me. An anti mage that has a very low winrate against most mage champs is pretty odd. is in an okay spot right now. He sees play in the competitive scene because of his utility. In soloQ, however, he's slightly under average with a nearly 49% winrate. Maokai doesn't really need the extra Magic Resist, but since he's not dominating atm and he's a tank, why not? It makes sense. The only reason Riot may want to hold him at a flat 30 is probably because of his already high appearance in tournaments. is getting a huge rework. I'm convinced she'll get scaling Mres with that rework. Atm, she's doing under average but her kit is so toxic that no one really wants to see her buffed. is actually in a pretty good spot right now. His winrate is about 49% in mid and 51% in top. For a champ that partly relies on teammates having knock ups to set up his ult, I find this winrate quite a lot for soloQ. He does have a wind wall and his dash to block or dodge magic abilities. However, since his mid scores are worse than his top scores, it seems that he isn't doing great against mages, while he's supposed to. I think adding the Mres/lvl is the first buff he should get incase he needs one. tl;dr Kassadin obviously needs his scaling Magic Resist back, Poppy needs a rework first and hopefully gets MR/lvl with it, Maokai and Yasuo are currently in a good spot and don't need a buff atm, if they ever need one, however, giving them MR/lvl to put them in line with all other melee champs would be a great way.

Dr PoroJul 31, 20157 votes

Dr Mundo and Garen get health regen from their passive. Why do they need scaling health regen? Because a passive isn't simply a substitute for base stats. They're supposed to give a bonus to the champ. Kassadin's passive defines him as an anti-mage. But in reality, he sucks equally against all.

PhaetoxJul 31, 20152 votes

I'm going to frame this comment and mail it to Riot HQ.

BeoridasJul 31, 20152 votes

the point of a passive is to benefit from it. not losing something else in exchange so you end up exactly like if u had none.

Also, 15% doesnt worth much at the MR level. its like 20ish mr.

LuggJul 31, 20151 votes

The 15% reduction and his base MR gives him an effective MR of 53 at level 1. That's what about 70% of champions get at level 18. So it's very hard for AP champs to trade with him. And that's not counting any MR items he picks up! Kass can wreck mages early and snowball, which is what he is supposed to do.

Kass is can still carry, he is just more of niche pick now against AP champs.

BeoridasAug 1, 20152 votes

my point stand still about what a passive should be. Also, u pulled these numbers out of your ass. a lot champs do have scaling MR 62 out of 125--thats 50.4 % who doesnt have the scaling. Galio who is the closest at being an anti mage resist based has it too. At lvl 1 i see usually 35 MR. mid game and late game this is a complete useless passive. btw. did you know that because of his abyssal base dmg that it takes 4 kills to be actually ahead? hes 100 base dmg lower than a great majority of mages. While they have 3 dmging skills to work with. kass has 1 at 9 sec cd. W is high cd and leveled last. E is conditional.

He cannot snowball unless he has 5 kills or 70 cs ahead of his laner. THATS JUST TO MATCH THEIR BASE DMG. not counting their items they already got in the meantime PLUS that they have still a combo adv most of the time. needless to say thats just not going to happen

EDIT: He is severely out dmged by all ap carries. He lanes well versus aps. Afterwards it doesnt matter. there is no niche beside being a counter to azir and smite ez which is no longer viable.

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

The 70% was an estimate. Kass is pretty even at that point with most champions for MR at that point, but has it at level 1. So that is a definite advantage. Saying that any MR is completely useless mid and late game is just plain stupid.

You then go on to say his base damage is abysmal. He has the highest base damage + scaling of any assassin in the game. So he snowballs better than most assassins. So you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Go troll somewhere else.

Vistha KaiAug 1, 20152 votes

He has the highest base damage + scaling of any assassin in the game.

U fucking wot, m8?

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

Look it up. Ekko is barely ahead of him at level 1 and falls behind at level 2. Master Yi falls behind at level 3. All other assassins are lower than him for base damage all game.

Vistha KaiAug 1, 20152 votes

Ekko is barely ahead of him at level 1 and falls behind at level 2

Because Ekko is a different kettle of fish that should have half of the kit gutted without any "but".

Master Yi falls behind at level 3

Because Yi is a melee carry, you dork.

All other assassins are lower than him for base damage all game.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/690/166/6c8.png

Level 18 base damage of 5 random assassins I could think of:

Kassadin 630 Zed 798,75 Ahri 1154 Nidalee 720-1200 Talon 1207,5

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

We are talking about base damage. How do you not understand that?

Kassadin has the 4th highest base damage in the game.

Here is the link to prove it. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions'_attack_damage

BeoridasAug 1, 20151 votes

Do you read his numbers or you are faking it?

Why are you talking about AD dmg? NO ONE is.

Ok lugg: Ill tell you one thing. in 4 years that ive played the game. ive never EVER seen someone talk about lvl 18 AD.

YOU KNOW we arent talking about that. YOU KNOW these guys are casters and dont use it.

YOU ARE A MASSIVE TROLL.

we talk about ABILITIES base dmg. what dont you understand?

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

That is what base damage is. You've been playing for 4 years and don't know that? Seriously?

It's a point showing that he does decent AD AND AP damage. When you put them together, he isn't near as weak as people say he is. Plus this really helps his last hitting immensely.

Yes, Kass does need a slight buff to make him more effective, but he definitely doesn't need to be anything like he used to be.

BeoridasAug 2, 20151 votes

no. this is what you dont understand lugg.

Casters do not use AA for attacks. thats suicide. If they do. its for early lane harass and its still not done much. Since it attracts minion aggro.

Also, AP CASTERS DO NOT benefit from AD in anyway AND NO ONE is talking about base AD EVER--when they talk about base dmg (which is unaffected by any stats but itself). YOU have to understand the flow of communication and give answers that are RELEVANT to the OP and what we are saying. what you are saying is irrelevant because:

Kass DO NOT benefit in ANY way from that base ad beside farming. (and will NEVER use it past laning phase) 2.You get bursts from ABILITIES from ANY casters and not their AA. 3.we gave you TONS of arguments about the dmg of their abilties and you have hidden the fact that you were talking about base ad when dozens of people talks about his abilities and the fact that they suck(kass)....why do that?

EDIT: Agreed on the revert all nerfs. thats unnecessary.

LuggAug 2, 20151 votes

I talked with someone else on the forum and I now understand where you are coming from. We were talking about different things and that is why each of us thought the other was an idiot.

Anyway, I will disagree in part about AA attacks. Having a good base damage for your AA helps with farming significantly. It gives you a bigger window in which to get your CS while avoiding harass. Plus in the early game, mana is an issue, so AA are much more important for harass.

Another thing about AP casters and AA is Oriana. She depends significantly on her AA attacks when trading and in fights. Weaving in AA's between abilities will usually increase DPS on the majority of champs.

Anyway, I do agree that Kass needs a slight buff or two to his damage so he can do his job more effectively. I say slight because it's better to do that, wait a week or two to see how it does and then buff again if needed. Unfortunately, Riot has a history of over doing it and then that player becomes toxic/OP again.

BeoridasAug 2, 20151 votes

if they were ad casters i would agree. Ap casters however and in this case--kassadin--doesnt get enough ad to benefit from it during the laning. im not sure of the math but it shouldnt be more than 2-10 ad above his laner . which isnt really that awesome.

But you bringing orianna is interesting. she directly benefit from aaing. But lets put it ona perspective. orianna is a late game utility mage. Early to mid she will use it a lot and it is very effective. tho her base ad isnt great. since that passive scales with ap aswell. past 30-35 min she wont use her aa much but mostly her combos since they are low cd and aaing will disrupt these chains.

As for kass buff i agree. i dont think we need people to think: OMGZ KASS BIG BUFFS LETS ALL PLAY HIM. and then go back to the same old crap.

the sad part is that he would still be weaker than most ap mids. BUT would suffer from that reputation bash that riot created by destroying everything around him.

The circle nerf as we said. nerf everyone till its their turn again.

LuggAug 2, 20151 votes

There was a pro game a couple weeks ago where the mid took a Runeglaive Oriana build. She carried hard that game. After the game, the analyst broke down the build and 40% of her damage came from auto attacks alone. That's pretty insane.

I was wondering if the same would work on Kass.

Vistha KaiAug 2, 20151 votes

Base damage - the amount of damage an ability deals on it's own. Base attack damage - the amount of damage a champion does without any additional stats.

My point stands: Kassadin has one of the lowest base damage in the game for an assassin and a mage.

I almost forgot how funny it was to downvote your comments.

LuggAug 2, 20151 votes

I see what the problem was now. We were both talking about two completely different things.

I have also had a discussion with someone else about Kass. I will now agree that he does indeed need the scaling MR.

Anyway, I have been saying for a couple weeks now that Kass does need a slight buff or two to his damage. Preferably to his ult since it has such high mana costs. With that he would be in a good place and quite balanced. Then hopefully Riot can get to work on balancing some of the other assassins.

BeoridasAug 2, 20151 votes

remember when i mentioned semantics? thats what i thought was going on. wasnt sure about what tho. because it was very clear obv provoking troll or semantics.

BeoridasAug 1, 20151 votes

since you resort to insults while you made yourself a clueless estimate. lemme give you of your own medecine. Also. i didnt say that ANY MR is useless mid and late game. You are whether stupid or you just cant read. I should have known a freakin bronze 5 overlord would go yap is mouth about things he does not understand.

Ahri: Q: 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 (+ 70% AP) 7 CD ----- (half of it true dmg) W:64 / 104 / 144 / 184 / 224 (+ 64% AP) 5 CD ----- (much better W than kass, and its not melee or skillshot,better scaling) E:60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+ 50% AP) 12 CD ----- (better base dmg, worse scaling, but much better CC, that isnt 6 casts reliant) R:210 / 330 / 450 (+ 90% AP) ----- (huge dmg.)

Shes dealing MUCH higher base dmg and scaling dmg (beside E for scaling but isnt reliant on casts and more dangerous if landed) and combo dmg as a whole.

Fizz: Q: 12 / 30 / 48 / 66 / 84 (+ 36% AP) (+ 120% AD) (With lich bane add: 125-559 base dmg) 6 CD (early game is beter for kass, later game is fizz all the way.) W:72 / 144 / 216 / 288 / 360 (+ 30% AP) (+ 4.8 / 6 / 7.2 / 8.4 / 9.6% of target's missing health) If someone has 2k-3k missing: thats 200-300 xtra dmg per auto attack AND ADDED TO Q dmg. --- 10 CD (combo with Q: 144 + .66 AP + 1.20 AD+10% missing health) E:84 / 144 / 204 / 264 / 324 (+ 90% AP) (much much much better than kass E at 8 CD base dmg and scaling) R:200 / 325 / 450 (+ 100% AP)

Fizz Q+W is HUMONGOUSLY BETTER than kass dmg since he can use it for longer amount of time, has a better E, better cds, R dmg complements all his burst, has better scalings AND HAS MR SCALINGS.

Leblanc: Q: 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 / 310 (+ 80% AP) 6 CD (much better CD, double almost base dmg, better scalings) W: 85 / 125 / 165 / 205 / 245 (+ 60% AP) 10 CD (better CD, much better base, same scalings) E: 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 (+ 100% AP) 8 CD (Better CD, much better base, much better scaling) R: 100 / 200 / 300 (+ 60% AP) MORE for mimiced Q+E, 150 / 300 / 450 (+ 90% AP) mimiced W

result: Leblanc has better CD, much better ratios and bases and incredible better combos. (more dmg abilities)

Do you feel stupid yet?

I checked the other assassins and it still better for them than kass.

So you said its ok for him not to benefit from his passive because 70% of champs doesnt have it: False. And katarina and freakin fizz has them.

I said previously that kass passive is irrelevant mid late game compared to his enemies because of build and MR scaling of them.

Then you come up and mention he has the best bases and scaling of all assassins......

......

.....

wot? get out of here you dumb bronze 5 scrub.

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

"this is a complete useless passive."what you said, word for word.

We were talking about BASE DAMAGE and you are going on about ability damage.

Fizz takes a flat amount of reduced PHYSICAL damage and Kat has reduced CDs on her passive.

Please put down the crack pipe, you are just embarrassing yourself at this point.

BeoridasAug 1, 20151 votes

lemme give a better quote since u seem to take things you only want to read: "mid game and late game this is a complete useless passive''

That was the point. 20 Mr does jack shit mid to late game.

i never talked about kat and fizz passive.

YOU SAID: '' Kass is pretty even at that point with most champions for MR at that point, but has it at level 1. So that is a definite advantage. Saying that any MR is completely useless mid and late game is just plain stupid.''

Notice the trend?

You talk about lvl 1 adv when no one is. and is like 30-45 sec of the game. Then go on about my comment which isnt talking about early game but mid to late game and connect the two as one and the same. You are trying to have both ways and it doesnt even make any sense while you are doing it.

Also, i SAID, HIS passive is useless mid to late game. i NEVER said MR as a stat to be useless, its not even coherent or relevant to the conversation. I never talked about fizz passive, EVER. Im not sure if you are trolling or if you have MASSIVE reading deficiencies. I said fizz had MR scaling.

You SAID: ''He has the highest base damage + scaling of any assassin in the game.''

Its utterly false. dont talk about bs lvl 1 base dmg. thats a completely shit and irrelevant argument.

YOU made these two statements. WE answered you. YOU played the semantics card and talked about different things and came to insults. YOU look like you need the crack pipe cause you may make more sense after use.

Point being: I showed you 3 assassins that ALL have higher base dmg. AND higher scaling. Not your freakin lvl 1-2 backward in-comprehensive bs argument. and then say AT ALL GAME.

But just for you ill show you again:

Ekko who has also scaling MR:

Q: 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 / 280 (+ 70% AP) (better base than kass, same scaling)

dont need to show more. just that shows how little knowledge you have.

here is a few:

Leblanc: Q: 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 / 310 (+ 80% AP) Ahri: Q: 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 (+ 70% AP) (half true dmg.) Zed: Q: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+ 100% Bonus AD)

Also, it shows your rank and knowledge of the game when you say master yi is an assassin. Hes a melee ad carry. That CAN also assassinate. thats the point of secondary role. Like ashe is secondary support. Or Zed is a fighter. Know your stuff.

You should stop talking cause i doubt anyone is finding you very smart or very good at much.

LuggAug 2, 20151 votes

Sigh, I guess I will have to continue to explain.

20 MR at late game is still a 17% reduction in damage. I would say that is pretty significant.

I was saying he has an advantage at level 1, but that means he also has the advantage all of the early game not just 30-45 seonds. This increases his chances of getting ahead early, which you want to do with any assassin.

He does have the highest base damage and scaling of any assassin, that is absolute fact. Look it up in the LoL Wiki if you don't believe me. He is the 4th highest in the entire game. This again helps him early with trades and CSing.

AP scaling is completely different from base damage. I never said anything about AP scaling. You inferred that whole line of thought.

"Also, it shows your rank and knowledge of the game when you say master yi is an assassin. Hes a melee ad carry. " Your words exactly. I hate to facepalm at this point. There is no melee AD carry role. There is Fighter, Mage, Assassin, Tank, Marksman, and Support. Master Yi is a primary Assassin, secondary Fighter. Once again, you can look it up if you have doubts.

BeoridasAug 2, 20151 votes

Ok. Now that the insults and rudeness is out. We can talk more civilized like.

20 Mr is significant early because of few things:

There is no pen yet besides runes 2.Everyone have low AP and dmg overall.

But when you enter the mid game. These champs that DO have scaling MR like ekko and katarina will out resist you (also because of their items)

for instance: 1000 Magic dmg combo is reduced by 170. but if you have 800 health left it doesnt matter much because the AP of your opponent is too high for what you can tank.

But the issue comes even more heavily when you reach late game.

30 MR is roughly : 23% resistance. with his passive you get: 48% resist

thats pretty huge!

BUT. In late game scenario with item 3001 item 3135 item 3020 .

You MR change significantly. Katarina for instance would deal you true dmg right off the bat. But the passive makes it back at 15%. which is equivalent to to 14 MR. And im not even counting void staff yet.

So when you reach a point in which you have 2.5k health. and a ahri combo deals to you 3k dmg. the 14 MR wont be the thing that will save you.

So when we talk about MR scaling. We talk about justice because katarina, ekko and other assassins have MR scaling when the anti mage himself doesnt.

And also because HE DOES need it. since the scaling MR gives his opponent the SAME magic resistance. and thats an issue.

As for master yi: i totally understand where you come from.

You see: Rito has public themes and known themes. You will never see melee ad carry on any tags. But if you look at the champion spotlights, or even the term ad carry (which doesnt exist anymore but used to) you would even find the term on vayne. (they changed that to marksmen)

Fiora, Yi, Yasuo, Trynd, GP were all considered melee ad carries.

But were tagged differently (some were fighters like yasuo, trynda, but we know they arent fighters in their playstyles and items) While yi has assassin.

Other games for instance calls all AA based high dmg as assassin.

so ashe, vayne would be called ranged assassin and yi and fiora melee assassin. Even if they are widely different from an AD caster like Zed. hence the difference in our perspective.

But we do not talk about the same thing at all when we talk bases cause its just irrelevant to the health of the game pattern of casters.

LuggAug 2, 20152 votes

First off, I do apologize for being rude. I honestly thought you were trolling until I finally saw where you were coming from and the point you were trying to make. I honestly did not understand it at first.

With your latest post, I can see that if would be a good thing for Kass to have the scaling MR, since that fits the role he is supposed to play in the game. I still believe Kass only needs a slight buff or two to be in a very good place. The big problem is that he seems weak because so many assassins are straight up broken right now. I could go into details, but that is a whole different discussion.

As for Master Yi, he needs a rework. He and Yasou are in the same boat. They are VERY binary. Against some team comps or matchups, they are completely broken OP. Against other comps, they are pretty much worthless. There needs to be more balance and less extremes with them. I am all for counters in the game, but every champion should have at least a chance to beat every other if your skill level is better than your opponents. This isn't the case for far too many champs in the game.

BeoridasAug 2, 20151 votes

You know. The game was quite good when kass had his silence and they didnt remove both warmog 1.2k health and force of nature. Tanks could resist him AND he was keeping the assassins in line with his silence.

Today guess who were out of line many times? Ap assassins. Guess who Riot dindt want to nerf cause of tank meta? Nidalee. When Riot changed the meta by making tanks weaker, it made him op. Now Riot agreed with the crushing majority that she was op BUT because the meta changed, shes countered and kept in line.

So i guess what im saying is: Kassadin was kept in line with tanky champions...and kassadin was keeping in line bursty mages and ap assassins.

So defacto: remove tanky items, nerfs ap assasins pre emptively=super op kassadin. Then no one keeps the once nerfed assassins in line and guess what...assassin meta is back and stronger. Riot changes them a bit: they become abomination (tanky ad nid, ad fizz etc..) Riot nerfs tanky items once more, nerf kass 3-4 more times for the lulz...assassin meta back again.

LuggAug 2, 20151 votes

I think Kass is at a point where they could give him his silence back and he wouldn't be OP, but I'm sure the community would go ape shit over that.

The problem with most assassins right now (IMHO) is that they have too much burst. An assassin only needs enough burst to delete a carry. That's their role in the game. Right now a lot of assassins delete tanks before they can itemize against them.

I had a game where I was on a fed Volibear (6 kills) jungle and I had a 1v1 with a post nerf Zed (only 2 kills) and the Zed won the fight toe to toe when I was a level up on him and had more items. No fancy outplays, just straight up fought and won. That should NEVER happen, and that is why assassins as a whole are OP and toxic.

SaiannaAug 1, 20151 votes

Lissandra & mana regen.

As best off-topic example on how to make unhealthy (=bad) passive.

kJsAug 1, 20152 votes

Unhealthy as in complete crap? Yes. Her passive does nothing when you take into account that she needs to combo abilities to deal damage.

SaiannaAug 1, 20152 votes

yeah, that is what i tried to say yesterday at 4 am :P

AbyssphereJul 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kass passive reduces magic damage by 15%, why would he need scaling MR?

Yas has a passive shield that blocks all damage. He really doesn't need it as well.

You seriously think Yasuo is the only melee champion that has a shield or other form of damage mitigation?

Plus, as someone else said, why give Kassasin 15% magic damage reduction if you're going to remove his magic resist for it? That's pointless.

LuggJul 31, 20151 votes

Kass still has his base MR of 30 and with his passive it's an effective MR of 53 at level 1. If you can't win early with him against AP champs, you need to be playing someone else.

As for Yas, he's an assassin, he's supposed to be somewhat squishy. So you have to choose whether you want dps or survivability.

BeoridasAug 1, 20151 votes

fizz and katarina has them..for starters....

CppLAug 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kass passive reduces magic damage by 15%, why would he need scaling MR?

Yas has a passive shield that blocks all damage. He really doesn't need it as well.

His Q blocks only magic dmg

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

RESOLVE: At maximum Flow, the next instance of champion or monster damage against Yasuo consumes all of his Flow and generates a shield that lasts up to 1 second, absorbing up to「 100 – 510 」damage.

Wrong, it blocks ALL damage as I said.

Vistha KaiAug 1, 20151 votes

His Q blocks only magic dmg

Yasuo's Q doesn't block anything. He was speaking about Kassadin.

LuggAug 1, 20151 votes

Ok, but I don't understand why he would bring that up. He has a passive that reduces magic damage and an additional ability to block magic damage. Why would he also need increasing MR? That's the point I was making.

BeoridasAug 2, 20151 votes

Ok. Now we get to understand your stance better. His Q was changed because it wasnt always so.

Also, he needs it because he doesnt do his job perfectly well past laning phase. Thats an issue because no champ should be only about the laning whoever they are.

LuggAug 2, 20151 votes

I can't argue with that. Anyone who is not strong late game needs a strong early and mid game.

Kassadin, Maokai, Poppy and Yasuo don't have scaling Magic Resist

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