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Juggernauts have horrible skill expression

Poske··3 votes·764 views

Dont get me wrong every single Juggernaut is UP as far as I am concerned

But they all share dull stat check gameplay in which they never reach anything / force anything. Inb4 just Walk inside "Darius to negate his q" just dodge mordeakiser e XD etc there is counterplay!!!

Counterplay which juggernauts give you is non existant compared to other classes not named AD carries.... AD carries are ranged juggernauts anyway if you think about it. Yes they die like 1.5 seconds faster but.. they can actually impact a fight while with juggernauts all stars have to collide

Most of them need reworks

But for whatever reason Riot prioritizes Ryze,LB and azir for reworks

Wait actually now that I think about it given how bad azir rework is.. I am quite sure Juggernaut mains dont want juggernauts to be reworked

But I wont mind any changes Juggs receive since in 8 years of playing this game I mained 0 juggernauts. Mordekaiser season1 was fine but he was more off a mage

All in all i am shocked item 3800 is getting nerfs. if anything it needs buffs given how low impacts juggs have

34 Comments

Salson5 votes

Darius, Illaoi, Yorick and Urgot are fine, they give you enough to play around. Hell Darius is actually stronger in Gold-Plat than Bronze-Silver.

Others though do need reworks, their power is just too free to be allowed to shine.

Poske2 votes

I dont really think they are fine.

Darius.... Here are some reasons:

Applying 5 stacks with a single hit is a bit dull. I would like different kind of reward rather then just auto enchantment. Improve his moves if he excecutes a target or something

Also there are times where your axe is mid air and someone else gets a kill (Auto from adc) resulting in you not getting a steroid this is incredibly frustrating. (Suggestion as he leaps with his AXE make it do a mini hit (upercat with axe).. so that if a target dies while he is ulting he does get a resset (dmg not changed just split in like initial 5% part and the other 95% part, animation and mini jump range as long of course..)

Also darius and well juggernauts in general are extremly opressive vs melee champions unless they are under powered (most of em are) However ranged champions are even more opressive to them...

Illaoi E max is extremly unhealthy. Bunch of times single E hit me I had to recall... Or by the time it stopped bothering me I already had to be prepared to dodge her another E. And no those damn tentacles spawning didnt touch me... her hitting the clone few times did

Some of her abilities have to long... ehm channel times

I would suggest to riot to nerf some E impact but reduce channel times, and increase Maybe jump range (slighly both on her W and r) as the game goes on

Urgot Played him maybe once. Havent seen him carry anything or have a good impact... So ehm? well whats worse then a juggernaut, a juggernaut which has to make turns around enemy target.. thats how he feels..

Yorick IS A MINION MANCER WHO CANT CONTROL FKING MINIONS

ENOUGH SAID. taht alone gives cancer to anyone who wnats to play a champion with mini creatures

Salson1 votes

The base design is fine.

Hell, what you suggested for Darius and Illaoi are good QoL adjustments. Nothing wrong with those, I even support them, but they aren't reworks.

Urgot needs QoL buffs as well.

Poske1 votes

thing with boards is

If you are suggesting a kit change for a champion you ll get downvoted no matter how good it is. been a member since 2013.. specific change suggestions never go well

If I reworked them they wouldnt be juggernauts Juggernaut design is way to flawed and borderline worthless stat check without skill expression

Juggernauts themself are underpowerd If they were AT ok state they would be opressive against melee carry champions Melee carry champions are underpowered to however unless you are yasuo..

In a game where Top priority targets to focus are MAGE/ADC juggernauts ll never ever be relevant

If you buffed juggernauts to an ok state they would just be opressive to melee champions and still do nothing in terms of carrying games like mages/adcs do

If juggernauts as class is ok why cant we have a class which invalidates ranged champions

Salson1 votes

Juggernauts themself are underpowerd If they were AT ok state they would be opressive against melee carry champions Melee carry champions are underpowered to however unless you are yasuo..

You sure, Riven and Fiora seems fine. Also take into consideration Tryn and Yi for low elos (those 2 need reworks, not buffs).

If you buffed juggernauts to an ok state they would just be opressive to melee champions and still do nothing in terms of carrying games like mages/adcs do

Numbers aside, ideally there are 2 ways to beat Juggs, range and mobility. Range is self-explanatory. Riven, Fiora and Yasuo can run circles around most of them as well.

Juggernaut design is way to flawed and borderline worthless stat check without skill expression.

Idk if it means anything to you, but it's a Dota Meele Strength Carry legacy. Skirmishers would be Agility Meele Carries.

Implementing that gameplay as heathly in modern League is hard yes, but a lot of people believe that it would make the game that much richer.

Also go watch a montage of a Dota hero called Sven, you would get a hearth attack at the damage of something with a point a click stun, 2 passives, and a stat buff ult. Now that shit is cancerous.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

If they were AT ok state they would be opressive against melee carry champions Melee carry champions are underpowered to however unless you are yasuo..

You sure, Riven and Fiora seems fine. Also take into consideration Tryn and Yi for low elos (those 2 need reworks, not buffs).

I would legit list all those if it werent for this meta

Yasuo is the only 1 who can engage often times enough per teamfight + he can windwall Stuff even lulu polymorph

Riven in this meta legit gets pushed 900 range back every time she engages Tristana/janna/lulu just fk her up. Or she cant even reach without flashing those kog maws/twitches which sustain through her shit

Or you pick riven get eaten by cho or silenced etc..

Bramble back kinda hurts fiora immensly atm

Trynda is top tier pick but he doesnt function in teamfights Eh yi is more then fine but again teamfights arent always ideal for him

Salson2 votes

Ye, the meta is garbage.

They nerfed pen on item 3036 and item 3033, them buffed all other Adc items. Allmost like they wanted Adcs to do the same damage to tanks, but more damage to everyone else.

I kinda miss Brand and Zyra making Adcs life hell and letting the rest of us play the damn game.

Poske1 votes

ugh dude?

Last whisper itemization was buffed if anything

you can access what 35% physical pen with what 1200-1300 gold?

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

If they were AT ok state they would be opressive against melee carry champions Melee carry champions are underpowered to however unless you are yasuo..

You sure, Riven and Fiora seems fine. Also take into consideration Tryn and Yi for low elos (those 2 need reworks, not buffs).

Numbers aside, ideally there are 2 ways to beat Juggs, range and mobility. Range is self-explanatory. Riven, Fiora and Yasuo can run circles around most of them as well.

Idk if it means anything to you, but it's a Dota Meele Strength Carry legacy. Skirmishers would be Agility Meele Carries.

Implementing that gameplay as heathly in modern League is hard yes, but a lot of people believe that it would make the game that much richer.

Also go watch a montage of a Dota hero called Sven, you would get a hearth attack at the damage of something with a point a click stun, 2 passives, and a stat buff ult. Now that shit is cancerous.

Sven's a boss.

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5tB3NeKd,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-23T19:28:48.478+0000)

thing with boards is

If you are suggesting a kit change for a champion you ll get downvoted no matter how good it is. been a member since 2013.. specific change suggestions never go well

If I reworked them they wouldnt be juggernauts Juggernaut design is way to flawed and borderline worthless stat check without skill expression

Juggernauts themself are underpowerd If they were AT ok state they would be opressive against melee carry champions Melee carry champions are underpowered to however unless you are yasuo..

In a game where Top priority targets to focus are MAGE/ADC juggernauts ll never ever be relevant

If you buffed juggernauts to an ok state they would just be opressive to melee champions and still do nothing in terms of carrying games like mages/adcs do

If juggernauts as class is ok why cant we have a class which invalidates ranged champions

Riot logic and biases, that is why. Assassin's are what invalids ranged champs unless It's Urgot and when ADC's are threatened then you can bet riot will try and nerf the threat.

DragonShea2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5tB3NeKd,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-09-22T11:23:32.321+0000)

I dont really think they are fine.

Darius.... Here are some reasons:

Applying 5 stacks with a single hit is a bit dull. I would like different kind of reward rather then just auto enchantment. Improve his moves if he excecutes a target or something

Also there are times where your axe is mid air and someone else gets a kill (Auto from adc) resulting in you not getting a steroid this is incredibly frustrating. (Suggestion as he leaps with his AXE make it do a mini hit (upercat with axe).. so that if a target dies while he is ulting he does get a resset (dmg not changed just split in like initial 5% part and the other 95% part, animation and mini jump range as long of course..)

Also darius and well juggernauts in general are extremly opressive vs melee champions unless they are under powered (most of em are) However ranged champions are even more opressive to them...

Illaoi E max is extremly unhealthy. Bunch of times single E hit me I had to recall... Or by the time it stopped bothering me I already had to be prepared to dodge her another E. And no those damn tentacles spawning didnt touch me... her hitting the clone few times did

Some of her abilities have to long... ehm channel times

I would suggest to riot to nerf some E impact but reduce channel times, and increase Maybe jump range (slighly both on her W and r) as the game goes on

Urgot Played him maybe once. Havent seen him carry anything or have a good impact... So ehm? well whats worse then a juggernaut, a juggernaut which has to make turns around enemy target.. thats how he feels..

Yorick IS A MINION MANCER WHO CANT CONTROL FKING MINIONS

ENOUGH SAID. taht alone gives cancer to anyone who wnats to play a champion with mini creatures

Yes Yorick can't control his minions right but the intend with it was to have glass cannon minions, in the laning phase it makes him a strong lane bully and now he can actually sent his current pack with the wave and then raise a new pack once they have gone 2000 range.

as much as I don't like the mechanics it can still be worked around and trick players.

Poske1 votes

Minion mancer who cant control his army

DOTA 2 WOULD LAUGH

we have 0 proper minion mancer champions

Yorick fails a fantasy of minion mancer

He is also a juggernaut so double fail

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Darius, Illaoi, Yorick and Urgot are fine, they give you enough to play around. Hell Darius is actually stronger in Gold-Plat than Bronze-Silver.

Others though do need reworks, their power is just too free to be allowed to shine.

i agree with this statement.

also, while garen still needs improvements to his skill expression, his w buff did a ton.

Trundle has his pillar as a play making ability (you can actually block allies from getting hooked by enemies with it).

and Olaf has his axe chaining.

the only really bland and entirely outdated champions of the group are DrMundo Volibear imo.

Yorick is probably the best juggernaut design out there right now. hes one of my favourites.

Salson1 votes

Garen 's biggest issue is his Passive, it borderline rewards bad mindless trades. QWE is fine in and off itself, but is held back by the passive.

The Villain mechanic also needs a rework/nerf, it's eating his power budget for no reason.

Trundle and Olaf are basically nished, they aren't allowed to be too good, only in certain matchups.

DeathBurst1 votes

For Yorick, it helps being the most recent one ^^

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

For Yorick, it helps being the most recent one ^^

True (technically he's the second one, Urgot is the recent one) He has the mechanical complexity needed to make a juggs less binary but his core issue is ghoul dependency. Urgot's kit works better as something that revolves around his passive because it's based on himself not minions like Yorick's.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah, true.

It's cool to see how Riot's progressed over the years and how fun the recent kits are.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

counterplay to a juggernaut is to not 1v1 them and kite them in 5v5

this game is a team game, not a one v one show

SEKAI4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Im ur Blitzcrank,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5tB3NeKd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-22T08:46:26.934+0000)

counterplay to a juggernaut is to not 1v1 them and kite them in 5v5

this game is a team game, not a one v one show

I can get behind this general notion.

Stat check itself is not a problem, or a core issue with juggernauts. The problem is just that some of them have a bit too binary, feast and famine design, which makes for some uneven play patterns, but that's less to do with them being stat-checks

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is just that some of them have a bit too binary, feast and famine design

in no way mordekaiser is feast or famin the amount of comebacks i made, i can't even count them due to one thing: he can heal an ally or himself for half of his/their hp and that no matter if you're behind or not can win games

as for other juggernauts without utility like mundo, that's not a juggernaut problem but riot design sucking hard

Certainlyt did a good job on giving mordekaiser utility

Poske1 votes

Huh?

yes if an enemy doesnt respect your shield/sustain he can surprise a player

Issue comes when you reach an elo when everyone know exactly how much he can mitigate dmg then he becomes useless since none maeks mistakes

Cetainly was immensly bashed for his rework and the rework was 2/10 imo

Poske1 votes

this...

They stat check or get stat checked

they have 0 outplay potentional

DragonShea2 votes

Yorck can make some use of his Wall actually. I have blocked the way so some champs and even used it at the destination that a dashing champs has gone to in order to cut them off.

Poske1 votes

So can thresh while he has 1293810321 more mechanics So can anivia while she has 12313 more mechanics so can azir while he has 1293182313 more mechanics

A single skill expression doesnt mean that a champion has enough skill expression

SEKAI5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5tB3NeKd,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-09-22T11:26:39.202+0000)

So can thresh while he has 1293810321 more mechanics So can anivia while she has 12313 more mechanics so can azir while he has 1293182313 more mechanics

A single skill expression doesnt mean that a champion has enough skill expression

You don't need to overload every single champ into a piano kit. Stat check itself has its place, and is not wrong itself; it's just that it's easy to make the mistake and make stat-check champs to be feast and famine.

Skill expression is more than a piano kit. "Mechanics" is far from being the sole factor of skill play, it is a also just a portion of everything under the umbrella of design and balance.

Poske1 votes

never said otherwise

Sona has no skillshots yet she has skill expression (yes her r is a skillshot) Lb has bunch of targeted abilities yet she has insanely high skill expression but she can also stat check you

Thing is compared to something like riven every single juggernaut is laugh worthy..

Primaquarius1 votes

Im just waiting for DrMundo and item 3065 to be nerfed from some poor high elo lad claiming "OMG he never dies wtf"

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Im just waiting for DrMundo and item 3065 to be nerfed from some poor high elo lad claiming "OMG he never dies wtf"

Elitists want things to die fast, regardless if they are tanky or not.

OurLestrade1 votes

It's weird because Riot went on about how stat balling was bad for a really long time... Then made a class that is nothing but stat balls. I understand the idea of juggernauts, but they can't work.

Mordepool1 votes

Mordekaiser = Battlemage

The whole Juggernaut tag was an excuse for 325 movement speed.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser = Battlemage

The whole Juggernaut tag was an excuse for 325 movement speed.

He was more of a Battle Mage pre-update since his Q bounced of targets. Now he is hybrid.

Mordepool2 votes

Except Riot doesn't believe in hybrids anymore. Honestly I think he should fit in Unique based on Riots current categorization

Poske1 votes

battle mage with consistent ability over 450 range yes

sure

He is definition of a champion who gets kited and does nothing

KETSU01 votes

as long as he has that bullshit passive he will never balance and fun to play against

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