Mechanical fighters and battlemages are the only healthy classes in the game: Civil debate request

Hammermancer··1 votes·716 views

Everyone else just relies on obscene crowd control and burst

These champs have the capacity to outplay anyone, all champions should be alloted that power, not by reducing the capacity of the mechanical champions but by increasing utility as needed in actual champion kits and in itemization

ashe not being able to handle yasuo for example is not an issue with yasuo's design but is rather an issue with ashe's design in that she isn't granted the tools to handle all the situations that this 150 champion roster has to offer, which makes her have a niche

niche picks are bad because they encourage champ select win/loss condition putting first pick at substantial disadvantage and last pick at substantial advantage. These two things aren't balanced out.

If every champion had a kit that could handle all threats such as Riven Yasuo but only through mechanical/micro input it would really boost the value of micro skill in the game, would make skill expression more enjoyable, and would help to reduce "Broken/op" champion issues. Even at their worst, skill based champions when dramatically overpowered can still be outmatched by other skill based champions by nature of their kits

this is my argument and the case I'm stating, I would like to see strong counter points to 'reliable' or 'easy' champions, who tend to stat check in games or simply get stat checked, to the point where a meta might be defined by a buff to any of Malphite Garen Udyr Volibear Olaf Tryndamere who all essentially just walk at you and bop you

edit for inclusion: assassins need a lookieloo too because squishies can't really deal with them, though I think it's more about the tools at the disposal of these squishies in conjunction with the stat check nature of many assassins

Mages are on the cusp of this, i think their solutions are to be found in a total itemization overhaul. because while the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented, the wheels for the mage cart need to be replaced due to the ware and tear of countless quickfix buffs/nerfs (Case in point would be rylai's) and while some items are iconic item 3089 item 3135 these amount to nothing more than raw stats and crutches. Which means more competition for slots with more utility based and skill expressive tools like item 3157 or item 3152 item 3030

I would like to request a discussion on the merits of my argument or the downsides to it, and I challenge you to not go into a rage of sophistry and vitreal when I just want to see how people really think about the argument

so instead of saying "Yas op u nub" just lay it out flat for me like you would a friend who is actually a nub. And how would you fix this disparity between reliable but specialized champions vs micro intensive but utility heavy champions

4 Comments

Alzon2 votes

No champion should always have the tools to win in every situation. Part of League of Legends should include relying on respecting powerspikes and figuring out a way to overcome them, and there might not always be a way to do so immediately.

...Except there is, and it’s just “Moar CC and burst XDDDD”

Hammermancer1 votes

{quoted}

No champion should always have the tools to win in every situation. Part of League of Legends should include relying on respecting powerspikes and figuring out a way to overcome them, and there might not always be a way to do so immediately.

Explain to me how that is counter to having skill expressive matchups. or how playing around powerspikes is a non-factor in a skill expressive matchup

So you don't think micro should be important and everyone should just play malphite level champions and attack move click down lane until 5 minutes at which point the team with the first malphite ult to go off wins instead of longer drawn out micro based fights of skill to contest macro based decisions thus requiring people to utilize both high level Macro and Micro on every champ and in every situation?

...Except there is, and it’s just “Moar CC and burst XDDDD”

Powerspikes still exist in skill matchups by the way. And learning how to overcome strong skill matchups during their powerspikes is very much still a thing

Alzon2 votes

Sun Tzu said that if you have done everything in preparation, taken every piece of information into account, and otherwise performed perfectly - and your opponent has done the same - it is not up to you to win, but to your enemy to lose. He who makes a mistake loses.

Remember Dunkey’s “I’m quitting League” video? He said essentially the same thing - the game hinges on “some dumbass [getting] caught.”

Back to Sun Tzu. He in fact details logistics as one of the most important facets of war, right up there with information gathering, morale, and misdirection. Actual skill in combat is not so important. In fact, Sun Tzu even says that the most skilled fighters should be placed at the front not for any tactical gain, but rather so that their glorious deaths may inspire the rest of the forces.

If we liken League of Legends unto real war, the most important facets are itemization/builds/matchups (logistics), vision control & player stats (information gathering), team cohesion (morale), and baits, rotations, & flex picks (misdirection). Mechanical skill should always be secondary to all of these, as in a team that executes them perfectly should not lose to a team that does not do so but instead has one guy “mechanically outplay” them.

Hammermancer1 votes

{quoted}

Sun Tzu said that if you have done everything in preparation, taken every piece of information into account, and otherwise performed perfectly - and your opponent has done the same - it is not up to you to win, but to your enemy to lose. He who makes a mistake loses.

I like that idea though, the more skilled person wins by maintaining a high level of reflexive and tactical performance whereas the less skilled person fails when they can't consistently cross blades. Lets say a gold yas and a plat riven fight, that yasuo would likely be able to put up a fight but the plat riven would likely make less mistakes

Remember Dunkey’s “I’m quitting League” video? He said essentially the same thing - the game hinges on “some dumbass [getting] caught.”

Back to Sun Tzu. He in fact details logistics as one of the most important facets of war, right up there with information gathering, morale, and misdirection. Actual skill in combat is not so important. In fact, Sun Tzu even says that the most skilled fighters should be placed at the front not for any tactical gain, but rather so that their glorious deaths may inspire the rest of the forces.

yet in a small engagement, like let's say two teams of five players, those people DO have advantage, this isn't a grand battlefield it's a game of skill and wit. Currently Macro play has hyper dominance I'm simply asking for Micro play to get buffed to a level that is close

macro means you just get objectives and gold, but micro is valuable for contesting such objectives.

If we liken League of Legends unto real war, the most important facets are itemization/builds/matchups (logistics), vision control & player stats (information gathering), team cohesion (morale), and baits, rotations, & flex picks (misdirection). Mechanical skill should always be secondary to all of these, as in a team that executes them perfectly should not lose to a team that does not do so but instead has one guy “mechanically outplay” them.

What if that one guy really is that good? He should be rewarded for his prowess. Throwing people to the wayside for being better at reactive intelligence than they are at strategic intelligence is kinda lame In a video game

Anyways again it's 5v5 and not army v army, I think the idea of every champ being on that upper echelanse of.. let's say azir levels of difficult and rewarding. And a single azir should be able to, through skill and skill alone, 1v5 those other micro intensive champs, only if he is capable as a player of doing this

I understand that elements of the game such as gold and map control are very good for the health of the game, I'm just trying to argue for a higher level of Micro play and allowance of agency through raw micro skill that extends into the infinite the same way macro does

a good macro player is allowed to dominate, why not a good micro player? maybe some guy sucks at seeing his map but he's such a skilled player on mechanics alone that it should merit him walking it down mid alone against the opposing team.

assuming the MMR system is effective enough then these players could be properly placed.

I just hate that it often feels like there is nothing I can do against certain champs who require less intensive thought provesses then the champs i'm on just because they can CC me to death right through my tenacity

and I hate that there are champs that can't do anything about me not because the players are bad, but because they don't have the types of options they would need to combat me

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