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Even ignoring balance, the PBE Jinx changes are going to be a negative QoL change for Jinx players

Bern··2 votes·608 views

Her AS is all over the place all the time to begin with -- now it's going to be even more inconsistent than it already was. Missed autos ahoy.

And no, I don't think the nerfs are justified. You just nerfed Cinderhulk, and Cinderhulk meta is arguably why her winrate shot through the roof. Give assassins and champs capable of diving the backline a chance to rotate back into the meta, and then evaluate where she stands. She's a carry with a strong midgame who gets an amazing steroid in exchange for divability and poor range with said steroid; I don't think there's any need to nerf the steroid because its inherent weaknesses are -already- incredibly strong.

I could complain for years about this, honestly. I am not pleased. The change will feel bad to play, and it doesn't make sense to me, either. Jinx sees little in the way of competitive play for a reason, and it's because she's an immobile rock that can only deal hypercarry damage at 525 range after a mediocre early lane. She's not bad, but her kit carries significant risks that are only mitigated if the enemy team isn't able to counter her with their teamcomp (and the enemy team can always be made to be a nightmare for Jinx unless she's essentially a last pick). Furthermore, other champs all fill Jinx's niche better in organized play. (Trist for pushing, Kog/Vayne for hypercarrying in Juggermaw-style comps, etc.) Don't nerf Jinx because she's strong in solo queue, where both teams are busy playing Game of Throws and making bad choices at champ select.

And hell, nerfing q like that takes away Jinx's unique niche and powercurve as a midgame powerhouse. That's just dull. If I have to wait until lategame to scale, why should I bother picking Jinx? Other champions do what she does with either more damage or more safety (and sometimes both) by then.

Basically, the changes will feel bad, will likely be unnecessary once people have explored the meta post-Cinderhulk nerf, and will damage Jinx's identity as -the- AD with a midgame/level 9 powerspike. I do not like them.

23 Comments

The Yetii Rider3 votes

You hit the nail on the head. A late game hyper carry with a ridiculous mid game has basically no weak point at any stage of the game. Could she get bullied in lane? Sure but with the prevalence of tank supports right now it's just not likely. You go to poke Jinx and Thresh or Blitz or Leona will punish you for it. An ADC's weak early game right now is about as effective as Nasus's weak early game, the numbers are there but there isn't an actual opportunity for players to exploit it before it's too late.

This change will basically just give Jinx a normal AS/level scaling again, but ONLY in her minigun form (not her rockets) which is fine.

And her identity is not "Hyper carry with a ridiculous mid game". Her identity is "AOE CRITS BITCHES!" which still stands.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

You hit the nail on the head. A late game hyper carry with a ridiculous mid game has basically no weak point at any stage of the game. Could she get bullied in lane? Sure but with the prevalence of tank supports right now it's just not likely. You go to poke Jinx and Thresh or Blitz or Leona will punish you for it. An ADC's weak early game right now is about as effective as Nasus's weak early game, the numbers are there but there isn't an actual opportunity for players to exploit it before it's too late.

This change will basically just give Jinx a normal AS/level scaling again, but ONLY in her minigun form (not her rockets) which is fine.

And her identity is not "Hyper carry with a ridiculous mid game". Her identity is "AOE CRITS BITCHES!" which still stands.

The AoE crits are honestly overhyped. Rocket form AS is very low -- understandably so, because of the AoE and safety, but that means that rocket form applies damage -slowly-. One dead target is worth more than 5 at 20%. As a practical example, trist that hits q will outdps a Jinx with rockets in /useful/ DPS because she'll kill her targets much faster -- much, much faster. Rockets may do a lot of overall damage, but they don't kill -fast-, and that can become a real issue.

Also, Jinx isn't a full-on hypercarry, imo -- that's reserved for champions like Vayne/Kog/Twitch that have %hp or true damage and scale extremely well into late based solely on their kit. Jinx gets outdps'd by these champs very easily late. She can behave like a Trist late (kills one person and chases down the rest of your team), but if you look at her effectiveness over time, she spikes around when she gets IE and lvl 9, and then other ADs with better lategames become better in pure damage than she is (especially since they get better uptime in virtue of having better range). I'm not saying she can't hypercarry, but her hypercarry potential exists at 525 range, which incurs massive risk; that short range is a liability no other hypercarry possesses.

And as someone who has played Jinx a very large amount, I feel like the minigun -- not the rocket launcher -- is her truly defining feature. I will never forget my S4 Jinx games with old BT, when you could just stand still and outduel people with the pure lifesteal and AD the item provided, and that feeling of reckless midgame superiority is still what I think of when I think of the champion. Sure, she can AoE crit, but melting teams AoE is more what I see as Twitch's niche, not Jinx's -- the ridiculous tower-taking power and dueling potential of minigun is, imo, what makes Jinx Jinx.

BluePolarizer1 votes

thats where you are wrong. In a vacuum, 5 targets at 20% is not as good as 1 dead, but in reality, your team will always have some extra damage to finish them all off. The AOE is actually THE reason she is a hypercarry, not the attack speed bonus, because she can get your entire team low. Finishing people off is the job of the assassins/mages/bruisers; you are there to apply sustained DPS, and Jinx is one of the few ADCs able to apply sustained DPS to the entire enemy team. If they are all at 20% they HAVE to back or risk getting aced which lets you take free objectives.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

thats where you are wrong. In a vacuum, 5 targets at 20% is not as good as 1 dead, but in reality, your team will always have some extra damage to finish them all off. The AOE is actually THE reason she is a hypercarry, not the attack speed bonus, because she can get your entire team low. Finishing people off is the job of the assassins/mages/bruisers; you are there to apply sustained DPS, and Jinx is one of the few ADCs able to apply sustained DPS to the entire enemy team. If they are all at 20% they HAVE to back or risk getting aced which lets you take free objectives.

You're also thinking in a vacuum, in a different way; if their AD and team focus their DPS to kill even one member of your team before you can kill one of theirs -- especially if it happened to be a strong bruiser or your mid -- it doesn't matter if you get them all to 20%, because it's suddenly a 4v5. This is why q management is one of the hardest skills for Jinx players to get right, because getting your damage on the right targets matters more than getting out damage in general.

This is also ignoring that Jinx's kiting is naturally worse on rockets due to the lower AS, as well.

BluePolarizer1 votes

not necessarily. plenty of times you can clean up when everyone is low, or another bruiser/assassin can clean up. Seen it happen way too many times.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

what I see as Twitch's niche, not Jinx's -- the ridiculous tower-taking power and dueling potential of minigun is, imo, what makes Jinx Jinx.

Haha, not after these nerfs it won't be.

Sonasaurous2 votes

I think the main reason Riot is finally nerfing Jinx is because she severely overshadows other ADCs. Like, why play anyone else when you can play Jinx and automatically win the game, regardless of the laning phase? Just like they've been messing around with the jungle to allow for a very diverse range of champions to fill that role, I think they're just trying to lower Jinx's oppressiveness to let other ADCs have a presence in the game.

/dat balance

denzel777x2 votes

I don't think Jinx needs to be nerfed at all. ADC meta seems pretty healthy atm, at least 10 solid picks that wouldn't be considered weak or troll right now.

Mandang02 votes

Cinderhulk is why ADCs with %HP mechanics should have been in favor. A nerf to cinderhulk only nerfs their ability to compete with Jinx.

Also, Jinx doesn't have a unique niche as a midgame powerhouse if she's also dominant lategame and doesn't have a weak lane.

WHO does what Jinx does better? Tris/Caitlyn might be safer, but they do much less damage (and the former just straight up sucks). Vayne/Kog might do more damage, but they sacrifice safety compared to Jinx. I play Jinx now & I plan on still playing her after this nerf. Sure as hell not gonna play Tristana instead, and no one else gets resets for teamfight cleanup.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk is why ADCs with %HP mechanics should have been in favor. A nerf to cinderhulk only nerfs their ability to compete with Jinx.

Also, Jinx doesn't have a unique niche as a midgame powerhouse if she's also dominant lategame and doesn't have a weak lane.

WHO does what Jinx does better? Tris/Caitlyn might be safer, but they do much less damage (and the former just straight up sucks). Vayne/Kog might do more damage, but they sacrifice safety compared to Jinx. I play Jinx now & I plan on still playing her after this nerf. Sure as hell not gonna play Tristana instead, and no one else gets resets for teamfight cleanup.

They don't do what Jinx does -in isolation-, but in proper comps, they each perform aspects of what Jinx does -much- better than Jinx. A Vayne or Kog'Maw with proper team support (from Janna, a Lulu mid/top, and a jungle Nunu) does much better than Jinx in teamfights, even compared to a Jinx in the same comp. Vayne is also actually safer than Jinx at her ideal DPS range because of tumble and condemn, and Kog gets full AS with %HP shred at 700 range with his steroid up (plus armor shred). Trist, in a push comp, is better at taking towers than Jinx (because she has better range, and e is disgusting at taking towers), and still does a lot of damage.

Also, re: Cinderhulk: Cinderhulk gave tanks a strong -midgame- spike, which Jinx was able to match. %hp shred champs weren't that good against cinder because tanks were getting cinder and large amounts of tankiness before the %hp champs could catch up and scale to them, especially if the tanks got ahead (cinder+warmogs+thorn=true terror). %hp shred champs were something of a trap against cinder because their power curve was bad against the power curve cinder was giving.

Mandang01 votes

You can't compare Vayne or Kog in a protect comp to Jinx in isolation, that's comparing 5 champs to 1. Each person you commit to protecting an ADC is one less person who can be damaging their backline or tanking or whatever.

I'd go champ-by-champ through your list, but that would be missing the point. The champs who outdamage Jinx are less safe and the champs who are safer don't do anywhere near her damage. To ask that Jinx excel in both isn't asking for a niche, it's asking for an imbalanced champion (if you disagree, try your argument on other ADCs - How does Tris's damage/safety compare to other ADCs? How about Ezreal's?)

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

You can't compare Vayne or Kog in a protect comp to Jinx in isolation, that's comparing 5 champs to 1. Each person you commit to protecting an ADC is one less person who can be damaging their backline or tanking or whatever.

I'd go champ-by-champ through your list, but that would be missing the point. The champs who outdamage Jinx are less safe and the champs who are safer don't do anywhere near her damage. To ask that Jinx excel in both isn't asking for a niche, it's asking for an imbalanced champion (if you disagree, try your argument on other ADCs - How does Tris's damage/safety compare to other ADCs? How about Ezreal's?)

I'm not comparing them in different ways; I even said that Jinx is worse in those comps than Vayne and Kog. As per safety, Jinx is less safe than Vayne (who has e and q to self-peel and dodge, respectively, even if she operates at 550) and about as safe as Kog (which isn't terribly safe at all, and she's arguably somewhat less safe than Kog, since Kog's slow works instantly). Both of them do damage equal to or better than Jinx's. (To explain myself a bit, just being at 700 range with rockets isn't total safety -- Rengar, say, will jump you with no issue at 525 or 700; I value dashes and general mobility more highly than range for safety, so I'd actually consider Vayne safer than Jinx in a fight, especially with her invis.)

I will admit that Jinx does a lot in isolation. However, my point is that Jinx, when you start looking at teamcomps for competitive, actually lacks a true niche because other champs are doing what she does better when put into a context. She does a lot, but she does it all at very high risk, with nothing but raw attack speed for a hypercarry steroid. If she's not getting picked in competitive, that says she has issues at the highest levels of play (and in organized play in general) because her strengths don't compensate for her weaknesses. Since competitive is the closest thing we can hopefully get to a picture of "ideal" meta play, that says Jinx's solo queue results are probably skewed because people aren't taking advantage of her weaknesses properly, and that means Jinx doesn't need a nerf -- solo queue players just need a buff.

Also, I'm not saying Jinx should be safe -- in fact, I feel like her slow MS and short range for minigun are completely defining, and she'd absolutely be broken with more mobility. I'm just asking for her to maintain her unique power curve, since that's the only thing she really has over the other champions I've talked about when she's put into a context.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not comparing them in different ways; I even said that Jinx is worse in those comps than Vayne and Kog. As per safety, Jinx is less safe than Vayne (who has e and q to self-peel and dodge, respectively, even if she operates at 550) and about as safe as Kog (which isn't terribly safe at all, and she's arguably somewhat less safe than Kog, since Kog's slow works instantly). Both of them do damage equal to or better than Jinx's. (To explain myself a bit, just being at 700 range with rockets isn't total safety -- Rengar, say, will jump you with no issue at 525 or 700; I value dashes and general mobility more highly than range for safety, so I'd actually consider Vayne safer than Jinx in a fight, especially with her invis.)

Vayne is safer AGAINST ADCs, Jinx is safer both in teamfights and against other types of champs. With a 525 range Vayne has to put herself in range of all those stun and knockup champs, which means in a teamfight, she's screwed. Jinx does NOT need to do that. When you put a wall of tank in front of her, she can wreck anyone else with impunity. Give Vayne a tank and Jinx a tank and let them fight, see who wins. There's a REASON that a lot of Tristana mains are salty about her passive getting gutted.

Bern1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mahou Girl Mami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5r1XPgzF,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-19T16:52:22.706+0000)

Vayne is safer AGAINST ADCs, Jinx is safer both in teamfights and against other types of champs. With a 525 range Vayne has to put herself in range of all those stun and knockup champs, which means in a teamfight, she's screwed. Jinx does NOT need to do that. When you put a wall of tank in front of her, she can wreck anyone else with impunity. Give Vayne a tank and Jinx a tank and let them fight, see who wins. There's a REASON that a lot of Tristana mains are salty about her passive getting gutted.

Jinx is less safe against champs that can dive, against targeted abilities, and against skillshot cc. Vayne deals with these a -lot- better than Jinx, because she can e people away, tumble for invis (which makes her untargetable), and tumble to dodge skillshots.

Vayne also has 550 range, not 525. Jinx has 525 with minigun. Vayne is arguably safer from what I listed above, but Jinx with rockets (at 700 range) can be more selective with her targets.

I've also been completely discounting that Vayne's normal buildpath has BoRK, which affords her even more safety.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

{quoted}

Jinx is less safe against champs that can dive, against targeted abilities, and against skillshot cc. Vayne deals with these a -lot- better than Jinx, because she can e people away, tumble for invis (which makes her untargetable), and tumble to dodge skillshots.

Which is a 1-on-1 sceanrio. Any champ that DIVES Jinx in a teamfight is gonna get LIT UP. Jinx can sit 700 units away lobbing rockets and anywhere between her and the champ (probably tank in a 5-v-5) she's hitting is gonna be a buzzsaw of assassins/mages. Plus Jinx can drop her chompers IN that area so if you run in you're either getting rooted OR have a narrow (easily identifiable) window.

Vayne also has 550 range, not 525. Jinx has 525 with minigun. Vayne is arguably safer from what I listed above, but Jinx with rockets (at 700 range) can be more selective with her targets.

Which is why her ROCKETS are the problem. If jinx ONLY had a 525 high as Q, then people wouldn't have an issue with her (and yes, she'd be really weak).

Mandang01 votes

Well, as 99.999% of us are playing solo queue, I'd hope Riot balances with solo queue in mind instead of the VERY small sample size of professional play. (Though, if Riot's doing that, I'd love to see what they make of Janna's 35% winrate)

As a Tris main the last 2 seasons, when I look at Jinx, I see a better Tris. Tris is safer, no doubt, but she feels weaker than Jinx at every point in the game.

Early: Tris's range is still low at this point, her trading is hamstrung by her stupid stacking mechanic, and her spells are on long cooldowns. Jinx has better trading simply by switching to rockets, not to mention Zap.
Midgame: Tris has always been terrible midgame, so I won't complain about that, but Jinx is used to having a strong midgame due to rank 5 switcheroo.
Lategame: Tris is safer than Jinx here. If anything, this should be the portion of the game when Tris' powercurve outshines Jinx's, and it ends up not really being the case if you look at winrates. Riot has tried to explain the solo Q vs pro difference by saying this is due to solo queue's tendency to group up, but if Tris's strength is sieging shouldn't she also excel in solo queue at this point in the game? Maybe not, as just killing the other team gives you all the time in the world to fight the towers, but if Tris doesn't excel late, then when?

Tris was just an example, but this gets at my general feeling about Jinx. When I play ADC, I tend towards champs with long range and lategame strength, yet despite Jinx's unique midgame powercurve, I am also drawn to her, as I don't think she pays for this power with a weak late or early game.

I've played Tris/Caitlyn/Ezreal for their safety/range in the past, and I'd pick Jinx over all of them given the choice. Maybe Kog/Vayne should be outdoing her in this meta, but I'm not seeing it, and I think it's really unfair to compare a protect comp with them to your usual Jinx comp without also considering how much you give up in the other lanes. No more AOE ults from your APC, no more hard engage tops/jungles, instead you're running Lulu solo and Nunu jungle. Saying that Vayne/Kog outdo Jinx when their team is buffing them to do so really doesn't say a lot IMO.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

Well, as 99.999% of us are playing solo queue, I'd hope Riot balances with solo queue in mind instead of the VERY small sample size of professional play. (Though, if Riot's doing that, I'd love to see what they make of Janna's 35% winrate)

As a Tris main the last 2 seasons, when I look at Jinx, I see a better Tris. Tris is safer, no doubt, but she feels weaker than Jinx at every point in the game.

Early: Tris's range is still low at this point, her trading is hamstrung by her stupid stacking mechanic, and her spells are on long cooldowns. Jinx has better trading simply by switching to rockets, not to mention Zap.
Midgame: Tris has always been terrible midgame, so I won't complain about that, but Jinx is used to having a strong midgame due to rank 5 switcheroo.
Lategame: Tris is safer than Jinx here. If anything, this should be the portion of the game when Tris' powercurve outshines Jinx's, and it ends up not really being the case if you look at winrates. Riot has tried to explain the solo Q vs pro difference by saying this is due to solo queue's tendency to group up, but if Tris's strength is sieging shouldn't she also excel in solo queue at this point in the game? Maybe not, as just killing the other team gives you all the time in the world to fight the towers, but if Tris doesn't excel late, then when?

Tris was just an example, but this gets at my general feeling about Jinx. When I play ADC, I tend towards champs with long range and lategame strength, yet despite Jinx's unique midgame powercurve, I am also drawn to her, as I don't think she pays for this power with a weak late or early game.

I've played Tris/Caitlyn/Ezreal for their safety/range in the past, and I'd pick Jinx over all of them given the choice. Maybe Kog/Vayne should be outdoing her in this meta, but I'm not seeing it, and I think it's really unfair to compare a protect comp with them to your usual Jinx comp without also considering how much you give up in the other lanes. No more AOE ults from your APC, no more hard engage tops/jungles, instead you're running Lulu solo and Nunu jungle. Saying that Vayne/Kog outdo Jinx when their team is buffing them to do so really doesn't say a lot IMO.

Alright, so.

Trist's early game is a lot better than Jinx's. Trist bullies her lane very effectively, and e does a -lot- of damage, especially when stacked. The stacking mechanic actually gives her a lot more damage than she had pre-rework. Trist has a better midgame than previously because of e, as well (seriously, look at the scaling and numbers on it). Lategame Trist is lategame Trist. She's also very safe at all stages of the game. She, however, pays for this with a total inability to freeze her lane and abysmal wave control. It's harder for Trist to snowball a lead because of this. This is part of why her winrate is lower; she simply can't turn a lead into complete denial. Her winrate has nothing to do with the strength of her lategame, which is great. Her winrate is a symptom of her autopushing issues and her resultant need to be in push comps.

Jinx has a fairly weak pre-6 compared to champs like Lucian, Trist, and Graves. All of them can bully jinx well. Cait also wins the matchup until level 7 or so. Jinx's early is actually fairly abusable. There's a reason Graves was right there next to Jinx as a top picked AD.

Jinx pays for her midgame with an extreme vulnerability to assassins and dive champs. Jinx is a poor pick into champions like Rengar, Zed, Leblanc, and Vi. They eat her alive.

There isn't really a usual Jinx comp, unless you mean something like (top)/(jungle)/lulu/jinx/thresh. Also, juggermaw comps still allow for strong mids/tops depending on the comp. Top rumble is a pretty common choice to give a midgame damage threat. It's also not that uncommon to forgo the nunu and take sej instead for more engage, in which case the comps end up being fairly comparable.

Vayne and Kog naturally outscale Jinx in DPS anyways; juggermaw comps just allow them to go completely ham instead of spending the whole game playing scared. Again, -even in isolation-, Vayne and Kog outscale Jinx. The deal is just that Vayne and Kog take longer to hit their powerspike than Jinx, which ends up being bad.

Also, it sounds like you're just not playing the other good ADs right now (which are Lucian, Graves, Kalista, etc. -- honestly, before they nerfed Kalista's backpedal, I'd have taken her over Jinx every game because her lane phase is so dominant compared to Jinx). Cait has issues with tank shred, Trist always has the pushing issues, and Ezreal only really shines in assassin metas where his extreme safety is more important than his low DPS. The meta just doesn't seem to like your preferred picks.

Anyways, this response ended up being a bit disjointed. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Marthian2 votes

QoL does not mean AS reduction or nerfs. Quality of Life is something that gives more clarity to a champion (such as when Anivia got the stun AoE indicator added to her Q.)

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

QoL does not mean AS reduction or nerfs. Quality of Life is something that gives more clarity to a champion (such as when Anivia got the stun AoE indicator added to her Q.)

The QoL difference is relearning autos on a champion that -already- changes AS like mad. I know people who don't play Jinx because they dislike the feel of q AS stacking, and it confuses them and makes them feel uncomfortable with her kiting.

Furthermore, as another QoL issue, it's just really confusing to explain in general. No other skill has a passive that works like that, and it's going to induce headscratching and cause headaches for people when they read the tooltips.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

{quoted}

Furthermore, as another QoL issue, it's just really confusing to explain in general. No other skill has a passive that works like that, and it's going to induce headscratching and cause headaches for people when they read the tooltips.

Her tooltips are confusing... BECAUSE SHE HAS A F'ING OVERLOADED KIT. Give her a more SIMPLE kit and she won't be "confusing", she also won't be freelo overloaded.

LoLKiru1 votes

I'm not saying that Jinx is overpowered (a high winrate like hers combined with an equally high pick rate is at least worth looking into though)

However her winrate really hasn't changed much from pre-cinderhulk. Shes always hovered just around that 52~53%ish winrate.

Erockandroll1 votes

um, Regardless of what the meta, and balancing states how good Jinx is, Having a hyper Carry that Snowballs was probably not a good Idea. If they nerf her snowballing mechanic, they could probably better balance her around that.

Though this will affect her Play style, In the past I would max her Q first, using the long range poke from her rockets while using the ramping AS for turret killing. Now I may be more Reliant on her W for poke, so my skill shot accuracy needs to be on point.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

um, Regardless of what the meta, and balancing states how good Jinx is, Having a hyper Carry that Snowballs was probably not a good Idea. If they nerf her snowballing mechanic, they could probably better balance her around that.

Though this will affect her Play style, In the past I would max her Q first, using the long range poke from her rockets while using the ramping AS for turret killing. Now I may be more Reliant on her W for poke, so my skill shot accuracy needs to be on point.

Everyone snowballs in this game. Jinx just gets a lot of snowball potential from her kit itself, in exchange for being horrifically unsafe. Being able to snowball well isn't inherently broken. It's a different kind of playstyle.

She has no built-in snowballing mechanic either (see: Draven), unless you count rocket's snipe potential as a snowballing mechanic. Her powerspike just tends to coincide with when people start finishing their items on her, which ends up being really strong.

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