Why exactly is Fizz still banned so much?

Penns·Jun 3, 2017·9 votes·2,543 views

Like he was broken in 7.8 as top laner and deserved to be banned, then the tank update in 7.9 nerfed his items (Sunfire, Visage and bork) and obviously 7.10 gutted it with a 75 base dmg nerf to a spell that he uses at least twice or more in most duels top lane (+ an 8.3 base dmg nerf per second on his dot), now he has 45% win rate top.

And mid Fizz was never op to begin with, it was good in 7.8, then new Banshees got released and 7.10 was a net nerf to AP Fizz as well. Now its average at best and doesnt even reach 50% win rate despite the fact that every Fizz mid I see in low diamond is a Fizz main. https://i.gyazo.com/798f41a1720647f8652ebdf8459972d7.png

So... title?

48 Comments

Irelia BotJun 3, 201711 votes

Because fizz becoming untargetable every few seconds is annoying to deal with.

FızzJun 3, 20173 votes

i don't get it, Fizz could become untargetable since release and he wasn't banned a lot, at least not as much as now.

koshkyraJun 3, 20177 votes

Ever been hit by a fizz ult?

Remember that feeling and then youll know why hes permabanned.

PennsJun 3, 20175 votes

Yeah, then I used Xayah ult and killed him lel

DrCyanideJun 3, 201713 votes

It use to be worse when it would snap to you, it feels a lot better to play against now.

SukishooJun 3, 20175 votes

Most people I know hate his Playful Trickster. So inorder to not see it, you ban him :)

MinaZer0Jun 3, 20174 votes

because there is 10 bans now and SOMEONE has to be banned, so Fizz and Yasuo, goodbye

BreakuJun 3, 20174 votes

Because there isn't really anything genuinely overpowered currently, so it makes sense to ban away frustration.

Jerry SeinfeIdJun 3, 20174 votes

Because people don't like playing against him...

alot of people don't care about "meta bans" because there's shit they'd rather not play against.

why does a champ have to be completely broken to be banworthy? Caitlyn is fucking stupid and actually plays in my lane but i'd still rather ban yasuo because i just don't like him. And while fizz is fun to play (atleast botrk ad fizz was), he's just a little piece of shit when he's on the other team.

DoktorKaiserJun 3, 20173 votes

Same as always, he's an annoying little shit with very low counterplay and is very unfun to play against.

Jinzo TorranceJun 3, 20172 votes

MARKSMAN HATE HIM!

TrashballJun 3, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cinquino Show,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5bMnekav,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-03T16:09:04.210+0000)

EVERYONE HATES HIM!

FTFY

CourtWizardAhriJun 3, 20172 votes

I used to think fizz was pretty alright until I met a real fizz player, ( not someone who is learning his "mechanics" if you can even call them that ) and in my honest opinion if I don't ban yasuo, I ban fizz just because of his E and R. If I don't have some sort of dash or flash there is just no getting away which I find ridiculous because of how short his cooldowns are ( at max thats ~~4 seconds~~ against 3 minutes if you had to flash). In fact once he gets Zhonya's he'd as might as well be invincible and if he did manage to kill you like once or twice stopping his snowball becomes ridiculous, by that point he can just dash to engage then E whenever you try to engage on him even if he misses his R which is actually pretty fast and kinda hard to dodge unless you see it coming as soon as he throws it out. I'm not saying he's IMPOSSIBLE to beat, as previously mentioned its just the E really that makes fizz well... fizz.

PennsJun 3, 20171 votes

I mean what might help people against Fizz is to play him so they see what he can actually do instead of overestimating him way too much with stuff like "his E has 4 seconds cooldown" or "his ult is fast"..

CourtWizardAhriJun 3, 20171 votes

I have played fizz, and thats what my CD was at 45% I will admit though I only tried him because he was F2P that week and it has been a while since I played him. For me his ult was easier to land than Ahri's charm who I normally play anyways. That's not to say I miss my charms often either though, just that since it doesn't get stuck on minions, can go over walls, gets bigger as it gets further, slows and also is its own burst which decided sometimes if it's worth it to engage if THEY aren't fed or a tank the answer tends to be yes.

PennsJun 3, 20174 votes

Its 5.5 seconds with 45% cdr since the nerf in 6.12. Depends on when he was free, the hitbox on his ult was also nerfed a lot in 7.5 and before. Generally, Id say Ahri charm and Fizz ult are about the same, just that Ahri isnt punished for dashing into someone and using her charm point blank.

Its like making you have to hit a max range Ahri charm that has more range and goes through minions if you want to do damage.. sux.

CourtWizardAhriJun 3, 20171 votes

got it thanks, 1.5 seconds can make a difference but its still not much or just isn't the right change since he still gets banned anyways, if what you're saying is true about his ult you would think riot would notice that its not the ult's mechanics that's the problem its the amount of base damage it has. I'd like to know if you've ever been hit by a fizz ult who only has something like an amplifying tomb or doran's ring, because at that point in time (laning phase) I shouldn't be losing half-health (sometimes a little more than half) to one ability maybe all he needs is to have his base damage reduced some not reduced to the point that it does nothing, that or his AP ratio's reduced because he does a lot for very little hopefully they undo a nerf to his ult and like I said reduce the base damage or AP ratio. Either way his ult isn't the main problem just his E.

PennsJun 3, 20173 votes

I think people are kind of forgetting that Fizz is a 100% melee champ when talking about his E and its cooldown. Unless he just throws his ult and walks away, he needs to get in melee range if he wants to do damage and E is still his main damage spell while also being his escape. He isnt a ranged champ that can stay safe with a 6 second cooldown untargetable spell, he isnt safe at all. There is a reason he is in the top 15 champs with the most average deaths.

The thing is, yes you should. If you have 0 defense (no Ahri ult, no Ori shield, no item 1057 summoner 21 summoner 3 ,..., nothing) and Fizz with only item 2033 item 1082 item 1056 item 1052 hits a max range ult on you, you will and should get oneshot. If thats healthy or fun to play against is a different question, but thats supposed to happen.

CourtWizardAhriJun 3, 20172 votes

I'm not too sure about that one shot but I will agree with the MR/shield you've got a point there and as for the melee aspect you're forgetting that the problem people have is that he can just R-Q-W/E to kill someone without almost no AA's. you are NOT EVER supposed to get one shot by ANYTHING, EVER. That not only takes away more strategy from the game but also makes it really boring, you'd have your whole kit available if that were the case meaning you did nothing and still got rewarded for it.

EDIT: This would also mean you landed only ONE skill shot. while champions like ezreal and xer'ath are all ABOUT skill shots that wouldnt be fair at ALL

PennsJun 3, 20173 votes

Well they replaced his old DPS W with a burst W, so I think Riot disagrees with you there. Doesnt really matter that he doesnt have to auto attack a lot, he is still in melee range and likely used his E for damage. I really dont know what people think Fizz can do with "going untargetable every few seconds".. does he dodge every spell thrown at him with it when it costs more mana than an ultimate? Is he impossible to harass in lane when it has 18 seconds cooldown at rank 1 and costs a third of his mana pool? Like.. what does he do with it? Sure he COULD technically never die and just E away all the time. But then he would get 0 kills and 0 farm and get outscaled by any other mid laner.

CourtWizardAhriJun 3, 20172 votes

no its not impossible, here's what happened in the match-ups I've had against fizz as Ahri (because thats who I play the best with and am most comfortable with)

Combat normally goes like this: I Q minions for cs fizz begins his engage sometimes with his E and lands straight on me if I have flash at this point I HAVE to use it because if not I lose a chunk of health, and the cycle repeats after Qing away on a minion. Now that I dont have flash unless I ult I cant dodge his next E even if I Q since it launches you forward, once i'm slowed he Q's to me or Q's to a minon to get away since his E already did all the poke, if he stays it'd be because either I missed my charm or he W's then can keep AAing or walk away since im on cooldown. At this point his abilities have done enough damage to either kill me or leave me really low.

On a side note: before level 3-4 I have noticed that there is a little struggle with farming but its not like I can just spam my Q and keep my mana so id have to get close enough to auto attack if I wanted to poke him away but then his minions would aggro on to me, id most likely miss CS and he could just Q onto me and deal damage to me with his minions until they reset aggro onto my minions then he backs up either way that fizz I mention was still able to cs all he did was wait until after I used my Q since he can just stand behind minions to avoid my E

TL;DR: Yes he pretty much dodges all the spells, burst champions and anyone squishy cant fight him, he cant be ganked either because he can just E away then back if he seriously needs mana, the only times i've managed to kill him is if my charm lands and my jungler happens to be nearby enough to engage with me.

PennsJun 3, 20171 votes

Why do you have to flash when he uses E on top of you? He needs to wait 2 seconds to proc his W and already used his E so just walk back a bit if you have to and charm him. And if all he does to poke is E on top of you then Q out on a minion, he is gonna be oom after doing that 3 times.

Also he is pretty easy to gank if you dont push early since his E has a long cooldown and he is most likely gonna Q you whenever he can, so you can just walk in range and bait him when your jungler comes.

CourtWizardAhriJun 4, 20171 votes

That's what im saying, I have tried walking back a bit but it never works, i've had times where I throw my Q at him he does the E to dodge the damage and even WITH that movement speed I dont outrun him and end up getting slowed, once the slow hits even if I hit him with my charm right after he landed it doesnt matter since as you said he has to wait 2 seconds to proc his W. After my charm has landed I use my W of course but he still survives and now im on complete CD leaving me vulnerable if I dont have my ult to get away since when i've tried to kite ill just get Q'd to and die. Like mentioned before he doesnt do it all the time just until he hits 6, before that all he has to do is wait for me to throw my Q or sidestep it if I try to throw it at him and that leaves him some time to cs.

CourtWizardAhriJun 3, 20171 votes

Also, much like you i'd like to get a better understanding of fizz too something has to be fixed all we need to do is find what that is for all we know maybe even a little range reduction could fix him.

until then: ban

PennsJun 3, 20175 votes

And about your edit: Champs like Xerath and especially Ezreal have extremely high range and are very safe. Xerath can also almost oneshot squishies after hitting one E anyway at 2-3 items.

Who is TaliyahJun 3, 20172 votes

He counters me

King of DemonsJun 3, 20172 votes

Because he isn't fun to play against for most people.

RexxieeJun 3, 20172 votes

Ppl dont read patch notes.

They would rather ban fizz zed yasuo than lb syndra ivern zac, and other monstruosities that are not only annoying to play against, but are broken as hell.

EssychuJun 3, 20172 votes

att speed fizz, ap fizz, ad fizz, tank fizz...

you could go no items fizz for 40 minutes and id still hate you.

fuck that champion and fuck anyone that plays him.

fuck off fizz.

Asayake 5150glowJun 3, 20172 votes

Laning against him sucks because one R means death in lane, especially with removal of Negatron Cloak from a Mage's buildpath.

DreadlocksJun 3, 20172 votes

Because even if you have double his CS at lvl 6 his kill potential skyrockets. Not to mention the things he does to the team with roams.

strutJun 7, 20172 votes

I simply don't want to see him in game

Irelia BotJun 7, 20172 votes

Intargetability is really effective way to tilt players

Especially when it is happening every 6 seconds

Reaper SorakaJun 3, 20171 votes

why don't the statistics on op.gg show how people feel about a champions kit?

DrCyanideJun 3, 20171 votes

Because there's no option in game to put "how do you feel about the champion you just banned's kit?" These sites pull their data straight from Riot.

Reaper SorakaJun 3, 20172 votes

So op.gg and other sites that pull this data don't always give an accurate reason why something is banned.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20171 votes

Other players have touched on it, but often bans don't correlate to strength. That just isn't how most people ban. Most people ban very emotionally. They FEEL fizz is unfair, and so they don't want to play with him, regardless of what the stats say.

And I would agree with them that Fizz is a frustrating champion. His ult is frustrating, his troll poll is frustrating, his combination of burst and damage over time is frustrating... There are LOTS of things about Fizz's kit that are frustrating, even if the champ isn't that strong.

You make an excellent point; Fizz is still not a GOOD ban, statistically. But surely you see why people are frustrated by him anyway.

PennsJun 3, 20173 votes

Sure but its been like that pretty much all the time. ~10% ban rate is normal for Fizz, not 60-70.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20171 votes

Yeah, that's fair. I think since he was OP recently, people just haven't adjusted. Also normal for people who don't pay attention to the changes in meta that each patch brings. If the point of your post is to bring attention to that, I'd say it's a success.

I guess I was trying to address the question you put in your title :3

But yeah, he's way overbanned for sure.

FızzJun 3, 20172 votes

his damage over time is shit tho

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20171 votes

It is, but it can still lead to really frustrating moments. For instance, if you use a lot of cooldowns to just BARELY survive his burst, it feels really bad to then die to his DoTs, anyway. It doesn't happen often, but it doesn't have to in order to make people ban the champ. Once is enough.

KhadaverJun 3, 20171 votes

Because he does what he's supposed to do, be annoying as hell.

SolidariusJun 3, 20171 votes

I think kinda like KAT, you cant trust your teammates/mid laner not to feed him and make him the king of the fishes :P

ShablagooJun 3, 20171 votes

Ppl ban emotionally no matter what, take yas for example ppl get dumped on by him and then refuse to accept that he has counterplay. They then proceed to think that yasuo is a literal zero counterplay pick ( cuz they are so good and their is no way they they lost in a battle of skill) and ban him. Banrates normally dont rly have strategic value maybe for the top 1% of leagues, but for the rest, its i feel this champion is annoying to play against o therefore he has no counterplay and should be banned.