Does bonus move speed counts as mobility? ☆ﾐ(o*･ω･)ﾉ

Brascus·Oct 10, 2015·10 votes·1,798 views

Elaborate why you do or don't think it counts as mobility!

I just want to talk about it, no ones going to jail I promise, it won't be like last time I swear ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) I'm trying to figure out, from a design philosophy perspective, why move speed seems like a low value or under the radar stat. The more you have the better it becomes, especially on champs that don't have that 'gtfo of here' mobility.

Someone told me that if your champ has to walk around a wall rather than traverse it, they're considered immobile, do you agree with that? Explain!

http://www.mobafire.com/images/champion/icon/heimerdinger.png

35 Comments

DrCyanideOct 10, 201511 votes

I view Movement Speed boosting spells as lesser mobility spells, in a similar way that a Root or Snare is a lesser hard CC than a Stun. They give you an advantage over those without them for certain, but they're lack luster compared to their stronger counterparts.

As far as a champions kit and whether they're mobile or not, I'd say it depends on the amount of movement speed and what they are being compare it to. Most of the time these discussions revolve around dashes and blinks, which by comparison champions with movement speed boosts are out classed. However, when compared to the truly immobile (such as Xerath, Varus, or Heimerdinger), their movement speed is relevant. That's why there's confusion on if MS boosts are counted as mobility or not.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

I feel that blinks/dashes aren't as strong late game when MS gets stacked pretty high, while the gap closing capability of MS boosts become pretty strong as they tend to also have lower CD's than blinks/dashes with less requirements.

freeformlineOct 10, 20155 votes

One of the big advantages of blinks and dashes over movement speed is the ability to rapidly reposition yourself, especially to dodge skillshots. High movement speed champions may be able to chase better than dash or blink based champions come late game, but they will have a harder time dodging important skills or hopping walls to catch people off guard.

kile147Oct 10, 20151 votes

Movespeed is also a lot stronger on tankier champs. It lets you catch up to a target more reliably, bur it takes longer so if you can't survive being kited (assassins would die if they got kited at all) then it is pretty useless. If you are capable of ignoring cc ( item 3111 ) and surviving the kite, then you can kick ass with it ( Hecarim ).

Chuck CharlesOct 10, 201510 votes

bonus movement speed falls under mobility, but it isn't what most people consider true mobility. technically anything relating to movement falls under that category.

But "mobile" characters are typically those with dashes/blinks/gap closers, etc. Garen is considered immobile because he has to run at you.

However, he does have the speed up, so he's not as immobile as say mordekaiser who has absolutely no way of closing a gap or speeding himself up.

for those who argue its ONLY a dash/blink just say this, do you consider rammus immobile? when the movement speed buff is signficant enough, itself can force a flash/dash/blink. Sure he is immobile comparatively, but he isn't completely immobile either.

BrascusOct 10, 20152 votes

This is exactly what I was thinking, what is and is not considered a gap closer, if gap closers are indeed part of the mobility category. Does Garen or Rammus' MS boosts count as gap closers? I mean I have used them to close gaps and quite often too, especially when there are champs like Ashe who have really low base MS.

darapier17Oct 10, 20158 votes

id does not because mobility is some sort of dash/blink because it lets someone move a large amount in <1 sec, sometimes instantly. Also, it tends to have an additional effect as mobility spells. This is why ghost isn't technically a mobility but flash is. Im just bronze tho. My opinion doesn't matter until its validated

BrascusOct 10, 20158 votes

{quoted}

id does not because mobility is some sort of dash/blink because it lets someone move a large amount in <1 sec, sometimes instantly. Also, it tends to have an additional effect as mobility spells. This is why ghost isn't technically a mobility but flash is. Im just bronze tho. My opinion doesn't matter until its validated

You matter bro http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/58993451.jpg

It definitely seems more distinct early game, but when you have MS stacked from mid to late game, to me it feels like MS gets on the same level as blinks especially when there's no terrain around.

Think about item 3800 I consider it to be a gap closer, are gap closers not considered mobility?

Support EvelynnOct 10, 20154 votes

MS is mobility but it's low tier mobility because of how heavily impacted it is by slows.

SalronOct 10, 20153 votes

If we said that bonus MS=/=mobile then we would consider Udyr immobile Does anyone here at all think Udyr is immobile?

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Philosoraptor-Blank-2.jpg

ModWulf HelhammerOct 10, 20154 votes

Yes, in fact that is the widely held opinion.

BrascusOct 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yes, in fact that is the widely held opinion.

Yet opinions aren't facts, so do we just perceive he's immobile when he's really semi-immobile, or not mobile but not immobile?

http://t3.ehcdn.com/es/images/6/1/2/img_cuando_se_agacha_un_obrero_delante_de_ti_28216_orig.gif

IcyPepperOct 10, 20157 votes

I'd say he's kiteable, but not completely immobile.

I'd say that... I would say that mobility is kind of like crowd control. You have "soft" cc and "hard" cc, and I would consider some mobility "soft" and some "hard." Zed shadow is definitely "hard" mobility due to its range and persisting effect, while I would consider Sona's E "soft" mobility. Just like soft cc, "soft" mobility is stronger the more teammates you have nearby to capitalize on it.

LegendaryJTeamOct 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yet opinions aren't facts, so do we just perceive he's immobile when he's really semi-immobile, or not mobile but not immobile?

http://t3.ehcdn.com/es/images/6/1/2/img_cuando_se_agacha_un_obrero_delante_de_ti_28216_orig.gif

+1 for Italian Spiderman

GunpointOct 10, 20153 votes

I want to say no but that's only because I haven't been seeing Udyrs lately. Udyr is definitely mobile...

JhomasTeffersonOct 10, 20153 votes

I'd say it does, but you need quite a bit for just movement speed to make you mobile. I know on Yas, despite him already being very mobile, I build a lot of speed. I get alacrity berserkers boots, static shiv, I.e. trinity force, bloodthirster, and after that sometimes zephyr, and you can literally just run down anyone on the map because you have so much movement speed. That's with zephyr though, and i usually go for either that, whisper, or ga on him. He's mobile to begin with, but at that point, you don't need his wall, or his e, to avoid skill shots, if you have all that ms, you can just run around them.

I guess the same could be true on an immobile champ, like ashe. Despite not having any mobility, if you build enough ms on her, she can just walk around all your skill shots to avoid them, and it would be much easier than if she didn't. So, you need a lot of movement speed to be counted as mobile, but any movement speed does increase mobility.

I'd say as it counts as mobility.

RedCycloneOct 10, 20153 votes

I'd say it's like how we classify soft and hard CC

Movement increases is "soft" mobility Blinks and gapclosers is "hard" mobility

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd say it's like how we classify soft and hard CC

Movement increases is "soft" mobility Blinks and gapclosers is "hard" mobility

Would that make certain juggernauts inconsistent with its theme since 2 have on demand soft mobility, while 1 needs a babysitter and the last actually has no form of mobility at all, soft or hard.

TilomentryOct 10, 20153 votes

Bonus movespeed is definately mobility but it is also true that it lacks the utility of dashes and blinks. A good way of making the distinction would be to call it "soft mobility" and the dashes and blinks "hard mobility" (like how there is hard and soft CC).

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Bonus movespeed is definately mobility but it is also true that it lacks the utility of dashes and blinks. A good way of making the distinction would be to call it "soft mobility" and the dashes and blinks "hard mobility" (like how there is hard and soft CC).

What if we called blinks/dashes:

MOTILITY

Mobility and Utility combined, while the other mobility is just mobility because it doesn't have as much creative use.

Daedalus871Oct 10, 20153 votes

It depends on how much and what else comes with it.

For an example, I don't think too many people would disagree that Yi's ult counts as mobility. However, does Sion's passive really count as mobility? I don't really think so. I'd say if it get's you over 100 Seconds %MS (IE, Rank 3 Yi ult would be 45% x 10seconds = 450%MSSeconds), it counts as mobility.

Persistent effects don't count though.

Jungle Lux GodOct 10, 20153 votes

In my opinion, movement speed makes you fast, but not mobile. The difference?

Movement speed boosts help you get onto a target, but doesn't get you to the target. Dashes get you to your target.

Movement speed boosts help you get off a target, but doesn't get you off the target. Dashes get you off the target.

And for a lot of champions, the difference between getting on the target and not getting on the target is dealing damage vs. not dealing damage, and that difference is massive.

macromiteOct 10, 20152 votes

there are three major levels of mobility

Movespeed boost being the weakest, due to its weakness to the weakest form of cc

Then there is the dash, not stoppable by most forms of cc, as they will tend to complete the dash before actually stopped

And finally there are blinks, completely unstoppable and instant.

each of these levels have mobility specific sub levels within them, like movespeed having the level of movespeed, or dashes being able to go over walls or not, or blinks being targeted or not, and all of these affect mobility as well.

In addition there are modifiers that increase the level of mobility. things that give untargetability zed's ult and fizz's pole should be considered better than what the normal mobility level of the skill is, but situationally weaker than the level above it, anything that gives unstoppable is better than the what the mobility normally is, but situationally weaker than the level above it, I like to consider morgana's black shield a technical mobility increase because of the cc ignoring part, becoming weaker than a move speed up but stronger than just moving mobility wise.

of course when it comes to balancing all of this generally ends up being blatantly ignored, but that's not super important here.

BârdOct 10, 20152 votes

Simply put, there is a difference between being mobile and being fast

Fast: the champion can outrun its opponents by some means, either by movement speed or mobility spells. Mobile: the champion can outmaneuver its opponents with the mobility in his kit.

Immobile, but fast: TwistedFate is immobile, but due to his build, is VERY fast. Twitch is immobile, but his Q makes him fast enough to catch up to fleeing foes. Darius is immobile, but the combination of item 3071 and his passive makes him run like sanic.

mobile, but slow: Aatrox has mobility in his Q, but besides that is slow Amumu can juke people if he lands Q on the right thing (can I hitch a ride scuttle?) but is a pretty slow champion overall. Maokai Is a fucking tree. You expect this guy to win any races? Well, he wont, but he can W to move around. (can be fixed with item 3800 )

slow and immobile KogMaw 0 mobility spells besides summoner 4 (and summoner 6 potentially) and builds very little movement speed Velkoz ^ Heimerdinger ^

fast and mobile Vayne can chase people down with passive and juke with Q Kalista so long as she has a target, she is fast as hell and the most mobile champion in the game. Juke skillshots with Q, get to who you want with R, all while having good movement speed.

Teridax68Oct 10, 20152 votes

Imo, movement speed boosts do qualify as a form of mobility, though champions with movement speed boosts aren't necessarily mobile. Unless you're a champion like MasterYi (who also has a blink), Rammus or Udyr , all of whom can give themselves massive or persistent movement speed boosts, being able to increase your own movement speed will still make your mobility strictly inferior in most cases to that of a champion with an instant gapcloser, as you can't traverse terrain or immediately dash/blink to a safer location (or your enemy). Essentially, if your champion is generally incapable of entering or exiting combat zones consistently on-demand, or at least has major difficulties in doing so, they should probably qualify as immobile.

manbearswineOct 10, 20152 votes

It depends on the champion really.

The more vulnerable the champion is,the less mobile a speedboost(unless it's something massive) makes him. Meaning that for example,singed's ult makes him a mobile champion,whereas karmas e does not make her a mobile champion(but there's still a massive difference between having a speedboost even on a squishy and having nothing).

Vunerability isn't only health of course,for example ahri isn't vunerable at all(cause of her ult),so her q speedboost makes her an even more mobile champion,though her ult alone is enough to make her mobile.

RebonackOct 10, 20152 votes

Movespeed boosts are to personal displacements as slows are to roots. They're different classes of abilities that serve a similar purpose in degrees.

Movespeed boosts are soft mobility, if you will. While personal displacements are hard mobility.

BlkGolemOct 10, 20152 votes

Movespeed is just as important to mobility as dashes/etc. Take this example. One day a Yi ganked a KogMaw at bot bush but the kog flashed over the wall. Yi can give chase with flash or leave it, or he could run around the wall pretty fast but generally flashing/dashing beats movespeed in that scenario (actually I'm prertyt sure yi could just catch up but he's also a pretty extreme case so generally we'll say he didn't.) However, now Yi lane ganks the kog maw who is much too slow to get away, and uses flash. Yi just catches up. Even champs who actually have mobility in dashes won't get away unless there is a wall, then maybe. Also, kiting and dodging without using spells definitely is a plus and really can only be considered as mobility. Movespeed is underrated; I faced a Yi mid as kogmaw once and before the game started I knew I was screwed. (we won, but the lane sucked.) He starts the game with 30 movespeed on me so I find it harder to hit stuff and then I have to keep my distance or get screwed. or just get screwed anyway. This is not me hating on Yi (though I dislike him) but just saying that YES movespeed counts as mobility, and that mobility on the whole is underrated in both the players' and balance team's minds.

LegendaryJTeamOct 10, 20152 votes

I think that champions with small ms boosts may not be that mobile, But when you're late game Udyr and can keep up a ms of over 535 every few seconds, you can probably still catch up with them before their longer dash/blink cds recharge, as long as you can dodge those skillshots or not get caught out by the enemy team.

Only Play DariusOct 10, 20152 votes

Its reduced by slows, whereas dash/blink mobility is only reduced by roots.

It also has a cap where your bonus move speed is cut on half after a certain point.

It also cannot be used to jump walls, which is why champs like Master Yi who are hyper-mobile still don't see competitive play because he doesn't have a reliable wallhop, wallhops in organized play is considered a massive advantage which is why back when cinderhulk was overpowered Sej and Gragas where the only tanks in LCS despite most other tanks being strong.

Move speed is better for getting around the map to make sure you are in the right place at the right time, dash/blink is better for outmaneuvering your opponent in fights.

Take Udyr for example. He is an amazing split pusher because you cannot fucking catch him if he sees you and starts running due to hilariously spammable flat move speed, which also allows him to return back to his push the moment you leave, but he gets kited horribly in teamfights.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

Heimerdinger I've just come to the idea that although MS boosts are strong gap closers, they are vulnerable to hard and soft CC where as instant gap closers like blinks/dashes cannot be foiled so easily or at all! Is this likely why most devalue MS boosts as it struggles against counter play more so than blinks/dashes?

MathbalnaseOct 10, 20151 votes

Bonus MS is the weakest form of bonus mobility. It helps, but not nearly as much as any other form of bonus mobility that would allow you to traverse the same distance. Blinks and teleports, conversely are the strongest forms of bonus mobility. They don't traverse the distance at all; you just appear at your destination, skipping all the intervening hazards (and usually without the travel time, too).

BrascusOct 11, 20151 votes

Bumping to see if I can extrapolate anything else out of this, all in all it's been pretty enlightening.