[Long Post] What are Juggernauts. An Introduction to the class and Each Champion.

DragonShea··23 votes·7,183 views

Updated/Edited due to Volibear mini-update.

HI all since I did a post on "why is skarner, the crystal vanguard a juggernaut, and sion, the undead juggernaut a vanguard?" on explaining what a juggernaut is, I thought hey, why not make thread about what Juggs are all about. Bear in mind it will be a bit copy and paste like's the original post at the start while also being a massive post so it's gonna be a mouthful.

Since some people are a bit confused as to what a juggernaut is, I am going to properly define what a juggernaut champion is in detail:

Juggernauts are the titans of the rift, capable to dealing colossal amounts of damage while also being hard to kill due to their durability and sustain, making them powerful frontliners that excel in the thick of things. Due to their ability to both deal and take a lot of damage, people will often be forced to between bursting a juggernaut down fast or risk having them run rampant and winning teamfights. Juggernauts are further divided into two groups. Freight trains, who in a burst of speed, will charge at their target and chip away of their health at an alarming rate with rapid attacks. And Raid bosses, who lack the means to sprint but are a slow moving beast that will kill nearly anyone that comes too close to them or is out of position.

Like to my previous thread about Raid Bosses and Freight Trains: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XXlNK234-juggernauts-types-freight-trains-and-raid-bosses

Also a colossal shout out to Randomonium for giving me credit on this guide here are the links to his Juggernaut beginner guide:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BUJqi1IcpQ&t=320s Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugGMQMBVmqM Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n5yWvNzeYE Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0xHqfBt8CI&t=12s

Traits both share.

High damage and tankiness Sustain of various degrees. Predictable/Highly Telegraphed gameplay. Vulnerable to kiting.

Exclusive to Freight trains:

Death by a thousand cuts, deal rapid damage with AA or abilities. Can gain a burst of MS to mitigate their weakness to kite. Most have Decent AoE damage or are powerful single target fighters/duelists. Better at engaging/ganking and can even get past the backline if they are lucky.

Exclusive to Raid Bosses:

Some ranged abilities. Some utility. (can peel decently) Conditional damage. Once they have fulfilled that condition, their damage skyrockets. Better CC than Freight Trains.

Anyway that is how I would categorize Juggernauts based on my own experience of them.

As you can see, there are a quite a difference among juggernauts even if they are a subclass in and of themselves, and although some of them borrow traits from each other it doesn't mean that they are a hybrid unless they are enough of both traits to even out.

Anyway, here is a list of each juggernaut champion and their playstyle.

Garen: Type: Freight Train:

Pros: Good base damage, Insane durability with both scaling Resistances and Regeneration Spin to win AoE damage, Armor Shed, SIlence, Execution damage, Shield and resistance to CC on W.

Cons: Weak against tank busters, very predictable, no ranged ability.

Garen is Freight Train what excels at Running up his target, silence and then spin the fuck around them. The single damage bonus damage on Judgement helps to make him a powerful 1v1 and teaming fighting jugg as it allows him to both deal a lot of damage and shed armor, allow him to bring some offensive utility to his ADC or assassin in his damage, Garen is also hard to stop because of his regen outside combat and his W's ability to reduce damage and CC effect means he live long enough to seriously hurt the enemy team and bring them low enough to execute.

Udyr : Type: Freight Train.

Pros: High MS champion, Good single target chase potential, Adaptable, got both sustain and shield.

Con's: No ranged ability, much weaker to kiting than other Jugg, can't max out all his abilities.

Udyr is a beast that likes to maul someone like a bear not give to F's about what stands in his way. Thanks to his stances he can quickly adapt to give himself an edge in fights, Bear Stance is a beast for ganking, Tiger Stance give him strong dueling power, Turtle Stance Shields and grants sustain while Pheonix Stance deals AoE Magic damage and helps out clearing the jungle. Because he has 4 basic abilities with only 18 leveling points, one must be aware of which stance is the best to rank based on the match up with udyr.

Shyvana Type: Freight Train.

Pros. High MS, %Hp damage, tanky, Dragon Slayer, Powerful AoE with Ult. Only Jugg Champion apart from Urgot with a dash. Deals mixed damage.

Cons: No CC apart from ult, Kiteable. Skill shot reliant for % max damage.

Shyvana is a Jungling Jugg that focus on taking down dragons for her team, this alongside her powerful ult AoE power, makes a her scaling beast that can destroy the enemy team if they are not careful and punishes dragon buff loses hard. She also deals a lot of mixed damage, making it hard to itemize against her. Like most jungle Juggs, she is weak to kiting but with her ult she can get the jump on her target(s) and start fights as her dragon form grants her HP, making her tanky enough to survive all in's.

Trundle Type: Freight Train/Raid Boss.

Pros. High sustain, Stats stealer, Waller, Tank buster, strong team fighter and zoner.

Con's: Single target damage, sustain reliant, somewhat reliant on tanks to perform well in teamfights, can't leave frozen domain without losing power.

Trundle is a mixed bag, as he has both freight train and raid boss traits. Like a freight train, he wants to run up and bash peoples skulls in, but like a raid boss, he is gated by conditions and a killzone to be effective. Trundle's ability to steal stats from his target means he can seriously weaken anyone that tries to fight him while he gets stronger, however. it's his Ult that is the ultimate stats stealer and tank buster as he constantly drains their HP and Resistances ,making him a powerful off-tank that helps contribute to teamfights.Trundle also feeds off death allowing him to heal a small percentage of his target's total HP after they die near him, combined with Frozen domain and Spirit visage, Trundle is a sustain beast that excels at divide and conquer tactics while healing off high HP targets that die near him.

Illaoi : Type: Raid Boss.

Pros: Insane damage, zoning, ult deals colossal damage (Hentai tentacle teamfight rape fest), high sustain.

Con's: Solely focused on damage, no real utility. kiteable, all her attacks have wind-up, making her predicable.

Illaoi is the definition of the bitch you stay the fuck away from, She is a powerful zoner that wants to let the fight come to her and when she get's a grip of your soul, you'd better run or make her do it instead. She is a powerful damage dealer that wants to be in a teamfight to destroy the enemy team. even if she is low on HP, her sustain and tankiness allows her to get some of it back and continue fighting. because she is packed with damage. She only truly shines in a comp with high CC as they can lockdown targets long enough for Illaoi to give her the chance to body fools .

Nasus Type: Raid boss:

Pros: Whiter is an ADC buster, infinite Q stacking. E removes %armor, late game monster, decent AoE damage. Can counter kiting to some extent, Ult makes him unkillable and reduces Q CD. Baseline Lifesteal.

Con's, becomes useless if his Q stacks are not high enough, getting focused can seriously hold him from stacking Q, which is his only way to dealing serious damage Single Target.

While Nasus is know for the pimp cane he carries he also has some decent utility. Due to his W's AS and MS slow and E's Armor shed. Nasus can bring more to the table than just smacking people with his cane. In teamfights he can cripple a high priority target and remove armor from the enemy team. While Nasus is a simple champion, His ability to deal high single target damage and offensive utility makes him a simple but deadly champion. and his Ult makes him unkillable. Anytime he ult's you know he is gonna nuke someone with that plutonium stick (Hehehe, Pluto) while also healing for a lot. It's not called the pimp cane for nothing.

Mordekaiser: Type: Raid Boss.

Pro's: Powerful shield that can be consume for a heal, AoE, on his abilities, insane passive damage and also empowers AAs, fantastic pull with E, %MR penetration, drags you to the otherside to be the living #hit out of you and steal your stats, Uber-juggernaut that will stomp many other juggernauts, Manaless, Voiced by Fred-freaking-Tatasciore

Con's: Slow, can be kited, missing attacks are highly punishable, not as much sustain as other juggs, mobile champs can dodge his attacks and stomp morde.

It's about time Morde got his rework and it is GLORIOUS!!! He now fits the theme of a Warlord turned Lich that carved out empires boht in the living world and the underworld. Morde is now a proper Jugg and has far better tools than before. In his old kit he melee battle mage-like juggernaut that didn't reward people for building him with proper tanky item, now his kit and abilities mean that he can get tank items and still be effective even a few AD once he got item 3151 and his truty item 3116. or go for a more aggressive build. Kitwise, his passive is his old W and procs after 3 hits with his attacks or abilities. is Q is a combination of his old Q and E, an AoE that deals more damage to a single target, a homage to his very first Q. His W is his old passive on command and stores damage he takes as well as deals to cast the shield and can now be cast again to consume the shield for HP. E is his first ever real CC abilities and drags multiple targets to him, similar to Darius's E but also with some elements of Thresh's E. Finally his ult will now drag his target to the underworld to fight for 7 seconds, a powerful ability that can isolate a fed or a weak target for him to kill or stall and when he fights them, he gains 10% of their base stats and keeps them if he kills them, meaning that a Morde that wins a 1v1 vs 4v4 can comeback and ruin the enemy team. All in all. His rework has hit the mark on what to improve while keeping the soul of mordekaiser intact. Making him the quintessential AP juggernaut that makes him one of the most toughest and deadliest champion to fight in melee combat.

Personally I will say it's a wonderful rework and Riot deserve praise for it.

Yorick Type: Raid Boss.

Pro's: High pushing power, Ghouls are glass cannons that can deal insane damage, Maiden can split push for him allowing him and his team to push all three lanes. Insane synergy with Rift Herald, Waller, Q+Trinety Spellblade can deal insane damage. Pets scale with MS. Deadly objective taker. Has some of the highest base stats in the game along side Darius and Illaoi. Maiden Summons Ghoul for each grave around her. Got both Current and Max %HP magic damage.

Con's: Very weak without Ghouls or maiden, relies on E to tag his target, less sustain than other juggs. Maiden has an insanely HIgh CD in the early game. ghouls fall of late game, lack means to summon ghouls outside maiden. have no control over his pets.

Yorick a powerful split pusher, He sticks to lane and makes sure that they are pushed and if anyone comes near him he will sic his mistwalker AKA ghouls at them to rip them apart. having all four of them jump at someone is scary as they deal damage the moment they land and will continue to maul their target until they are dead. Yorick's ability to wall allows him to cut off enemies and save allies near chokepoints in the jungle as they can pass through his wall freely and if he can wall someone after they have dashed, they are more or less screwed and doing so is the key between a good and a great Yorick player. The maiden is also excellent for taking rift herald and dragons as his ghouls and maiden attacks can quickly kill them, making yorick a good pick for taking objectives as well. Thanks to his Insanely high Base damage, He can deal serious damage with his Q once he has Sterak's and TriForce and it's something that people often underestimate. Yorick is a beast that possess insane pushing power and can 1v2 or even 1v3 the enemy team as his sheer tankiness and damage alongside his minions allow him to pressure the enemy team and makes Yorick a fearsome juggernaut.

Volibear Type: Freight Train

Pro's: Insane HP regen at 30% Hp, decent CC, Charge and flips back target. Decent execution power. Chain-fucking-lightning. AS based, Anti-Dash, counter-engage.

Con's: No ranged abilities his ult chain. wonky scaling with AP. Kitable

Volibear is more or less intended to be that champ that mauls the hell out of his target before finishing them off with his W, due to his descent AS scaling, his W passive and his ult synergizes well with each other, allowing him to deal a lot of AoE damage while also causing a helluva lot of chaos among the enemy team by flipping and slowing them. sending the enemy team into panic mode as they struggle to kill you. He's pretty much a mix of a vanguard and a jugg due to his Passive and the durability he has. Thanks to the update in 8.4, he is able to run faster and his E now as knockback and it now deals increased damage to anyone that is dashing or airebone, allow him to juggle his enemy with a Q+E combo before swallowing his foes. Like Mondo, he doesn't really need any attack items and his base damage is insane.

Olaf Type: Freight Train.

Pro's: Constant AoE slows, Insanely high AS, even more so at low HP. High sustain, Ult passive grants tankiness, while it's active effect grants Ad and make him give zero fucks about CC(unstoppable). True damage. Good chasing power.

Con's. Q is a skillshot and his only CC ability. Losses passive resistances during ult, making you more vulnerable to getting dogpiled. No real AoE ability apart from Q with is a linear ability. E deals true damage to Olaf as well. Reliant on being at Low HP to deal more damage. Wallers can stop him during his ult.

Olaf is a berserker and it shows, He is that champ that wants to singlemindedly chase and murder someone and not give a damn about anyone getting in his way. HIs kit is designed to get in and tear shit up and because of his ult makes him immune to CC, he can with a shield or if he is fed, completely deny a CC heavy comp from locking him, allowing him to pretty much kill anyone he wants. HIs E is also a big middle finger to Resistance building champs, so unless they have a a lot, and I mean a lot of HP it's will hurt like a motherfucker.

DrMundo : Raid Boss(with some Freight Train traits)

Pro's: Decent chase power, high regen from both passive and ult. % HP damage. AoE damage and Tenacity with his W. Gains A lot of AD with his E, even more the lower his Hp is. High MS with ult. Damn hard to kill. Mage killer due to his W's passive.

Con's. Weak to tank busters. Kiteable. Abilities cost HP to use. High Hp cost on W, Q is a skillshot. High risk High reward champ. Grievous wound is a kick in the balls to him.

Mundo is well, Mundo. He is a pain in the ass and because he is so damn tanky he is hard to kill, force out of lane and just harass as he is a stone wall that don't give a damn. He will piss you off with his constant poke and trying to get near him is even worse as he can then beat the hell out of those that get near him. Mundo works well as a harasser due his ability to remain alive and unless there are tank busters around, he can fight for a long time and is a threat because of his sustained damage and regen. Mundo is also a nightmare to any AP champions as he gains up to 30% more MR when he takes magic damage and combined with Spirit Visage, Burst ain't gonna cut it. Sadism is a beast of an ult as mundo can regenerate 60% of his Max Hp at max rank and boost his MS, allowing him to turn the tide of a losing fight and regen his way to victory.

Darius Type: Raid Boss.

Pro's: Stacking Dot on hit and gains AD on max stack. Decent champion lockdown. Good AoE damage which can spread max stack DoT. Good sustain on Q hits. Ult deals true damage and resets on kills. Can reel in targets, baseline Armor pen makes it hard to do negate his damage. Excellent teamfighter and cleaner.

Con's: Reliant on Passive ramp up. denying him Max stack proc hurts him, needs to properly time his attacks. Q is a realistic attack, get hit by the handle and you don't get a dot, heal him and take as much damage. kiteable, ult only deals max damage with 5 stack of his passive.

The pimp hand of Noxus, The Dunkmaster himself. Darius is a feared champ because he wants people to fight him and unless they can dance around his Q, few can match him in a slugfest because of his insane power and he can at times pull a 180 on ganks as he can spread a fully stacked Dot to his next target and then dunk them. Darius is also the motherfucker you don't want to see in a teamfight as he can focus on target, spread his Dot to everyone and then proceed to pentakill the entire enemy team. Thanks to his Q's heal he can recover from a beatdown regaining up to 36% of his missing Hp if he hits three targets or more meaning he a jugg that lives for the carnage and carnage it shall be if he is fed as he is a danger both in 1v1 and teamfights.

Urgot Type: Raid Boss

Pro's:Decent slow on Q, Deals insane AoE damage, can dash and throw around other champs. Deals % HP damage, W deals insane damage to locked on target. Ult executes anyone below 25% Hp. Has shield. Got shotgun knees for god's sake. Good single target damage. Shield on W.

Con's: Slow, lacks sustain in his kit. Short range. Predicable. Ult is a skillshot and some champs can prevent the execute from happening. W slows him even more. Q has a short delay. shotgun have a long CD in the early game and can only fire in a certain direction

Urgot is the first ever Ranged Jugg and because of this, he is a special case, unlike other juggs, he trades sustain for a shield and can even dash. in spite of his. He still has the trademark Killzone power that raid bosses have, he is slow, but when he doe enter in the fray, you can expect a lot people getting shot while wondering where the hell the corpse of one of your mates is and why there is only gib around them. Urgot is all about positioning, as his shotgun knees only fire out in a 60 degree direction and have a CD which can screw him over if he ain't prepared. But when he is prep'd and he slowly walking into the enemy team and offloads his payload, and people will see just why he is called "Urgod". Because if anyone, and I mean ANYONE get within range of Urgot, pray he doesn't have his ult up. He can deal INSANE damage and with Clever and Mallet, few are gonna get out fast enough to survive his damage if he gets his Q > W/E Combo on them.

Aatrox Type Raid Boss/Skirmisher.

Pros: insane sustain, Sweetspot reduces CD, powerful duelist, ult steroid grants more AD and Healing, decent CC. Short CD dash

Cons: Skill reliant, relies on self-heal to win fights, Passive can be unreliable, somewhat clunky.

Aatrox has gone from being a diver into a juggernaut and it's been a radical change, no longer is he a in-your-face diving AS shredder, he has now become a dueling caster Juggernaut that relies on methodical and accurate Q strikes to deal the most damage to his target, with a dash that is the envy of all juggs, Aatrox has far more mobility than any of them and use this to reposition his Q strikes to better get the drop on his target. Due to his fantasitic dueling powers he is one of the best juggernauts as of the time of writing, even after losing his revive on his ult. Despite being a jugg, he also part skirmisher due to his mobility being higher than most juggs and being more maneuverable, however he doesn't have a powerful defensive ability relying on his sustain to survive in fights.

Upcoming Champion: Sett Type: The (Raid) Boss

Pro's: Strong Anti tank damage. Regeneration grows stronger the lower his HP is. Makes good use of on-hit abilities due to double striking AA's. Got an Insane Shield due to grit. Can deal True damage equal to Darius and Cho'Gath with a basic ability. Multi-pull targets. Ult can disposition targets and deal a percentage of the targets Bonus HP in damage.

Con's: No dashes beyond ult, relies on taking damage to deal high damage back, vulnerable to kiting, low range.

Sett is a new juggernaut that coming out in 2020 and is a return to the simple yet strong juggernauts. As a Raid Boss you don't want someone like Sett to be near anyone of your allies as he will break their faces in and can deal true damage in a line with Haymaker. Sett is a brawler, he wants to get into the thick of things and beat the everloving shit out of anyone he can get his hands on and pray that he doesn't get his hands on a tank during a teamfight because he will dunk them on his squishy enemies with his ult. But like all Raid bosses, Sett is vulnerable to kiting so unless he can purchase a item 3022 He's going to struggle against Mobile and or ranged opponents.

Anyways I hope You like this post and that was on the ball for you guys, if not then hit me up with some suggestions to improve this post.

Peace.

61 Comments

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser: Type: Raid Boss.

not even sure, mordekaiser works better right now by killing someone from range and let the clone killing everyone

{quoted}

Con's: Uses Hp as a resource

doesn't really matter, flat hp cost and in the end he converts it into massive shield reducing the damage he takes at the end

{quoted}

325 base MS

i do acknowledge that it's a drawback, but you made sure to not list the pros of having 325 base ms

mordekaiser is the only juggernaut who can burst someone from range with W+E+R+gunblade

and for some reasons, you did not list his W as a bonus movement speed steroid

{quoted}

can't build tanky unlike other juggs

he HAS to build tanky, what the fuck are you talking about?

{quoted}

lower base HP than most juggs.

lower base hp is only a drawback if you go full ap but mordekaiser has the strongest base damage of all juggernauts

the lower hp is here to force him to build hp instead of going full ap, because if he had 2200 base hp like darius, he would be impossible to kill with iron man, and his insane base damage, while also healing from ult (steals 50% of someone's hp with full ap) and W

{quoted}

Mordekaiser is an oddball among juggs, meant to a kind of ADC but that reworked failed miserably.

failed to do what? i do not understand, it failed to make him healthy which is why he's going to get reworked again

until his rework, he perfectly works in the adc role, he's one of the most busted pick in that role and was played in lcs as an adc multiple time in 2017 most mordekaiser mains above d1 plays him in the adc role (i know 5 of them) Malicious Metal acknowledged that the ADC role is the strongest role for morde which is kind of depressing because you want to be able to carry games while being top

{quoted}

He can even use his W on an ally to get them** to steal HP for him**.

????????????????????? this thing actually made me wondering if you know the subject you're trying to talk about

{quoted}

however he is extremely reliant on Rylai's and without it he can't really do anything besides using his W to sustain himself.

https://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.gyazo.com%2F3fe61aeef22407c233f6d6f909eddfa1.png&key=f0abbd34f14549f3a15cd94dd9970851&width=425

he's only reliant on Rylai in solo lane, in duo lane he kills everyone

https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=my+final+hour

this vayne OTP has an insane win rate on ADC morde in high elo without building Rylai

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Lj6oXPe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-19T14:37:03.964+0000)

not even sure, mordekaiser works better right now by killing someone from range and let the clone killing everyone

doesn't really matter, flat hp cost and in the end he converts it into massive shield reducing the damage he takes at the end

i do acknowledge that it's a drawback, but you made sure to not list the pros of having 325 base ms

mordekaiser is the only juggernaut who can burst someone from range with W+E+R+gunblade

and for some reasons, you did not list his W as a bonus movement speed steroid

he HAS to build tanky, what the fuck are you talking about?

lower base hp is only a drawback if you go full ap but mordekaiser has the strongest base damage of all juggernauts

the lower hp is here to force him to build hp instead of going full ap, because if he had 2200 base hp like darius, he would be impossible to kill with iron man, and his insane base damage, while also healing from ult (steals 50% of someone's hp with full ap) and W

failed to do what? i do not understand, it failed to make him healthy which is why he's going to get reworked again

until his rework, he perfectly works in the adc role, he's one of the most busted pick in that role and was played in lcs as an adc multiple time in 2017 most mordekaiser mains above d1 plays him in the adc role (i know 5 of them) Malicious Metal acknowledged that the ADC role is the strongest role for morde which is kind of depressing because you want to be able to carry games while being top

????????????????????? this thing actually made me wondering if you know the subject you're trying to talk about however he is extremely reliant on Rylai's and without it he can't really do anything besides using his W to sustain himself.

https://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.gyazo.com%2F3fe61aeef22407c233f6d6f909eddfa1.png&key=f0abbd34f14549f3a15cd94dd9970851&width=425

he's only reliant on Rylai in solo lane, in duo lane he kills everyone

https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=my+final+hour

this vayne OTP has an insane win rate on ADC morde in high elo without building Rylai

Dude critic me if you want but don't be that fucking harsh. Anyway since you have given me better insight to mode will edit that right away. Also Morde doesn't have room to get as many raw tank items compared to other juggs. so his final builds often mean that he doesn't have has much raw resistances as someone like darius. Sure he can drain train people but you also have to remember the pro's and con's of that. Not that I am saying that it's bad but you sound like an angry fanboy for two reasons:

One: Morde can't make proper use of his high AD, even with item 3053 and Q scaling. he is better off with AP.

Two: are you trying to imply that having the lowest MS in the game is a good thing?

Ahristocats2 votes

first i'm not harsh, except at the moment you said morde can make people stealing hp for him which is just false

second: morde can make use of his high ad LOL, he builds sterak and gunblade, ends up with 240 ad, punches harder than darius, his Q has a 660% ad ratio if we take in account the AD+ratio of Q his ghost gets mordekaiser's bonus ad which is straight up broken

third: having the lowest ms in the game is not a good thing, but mordekaiser exchanges it for things like range

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Lj6oXPe,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-19T15:27:35.749+0000)

first i'm not harsh, except at the moment you said morde can make people stealing hp for him which is just false

second: morde can make use of his high ad LOL, he builds sterak and gunblade, ends up with 240 ad, punches harder than darius, his Q has a 660% ad ratio if we take in account the AD+ratio of Q his ghost gets mordekaiser's bonus ad which is straight up broken

third: having the lowest ms in the game is not a good thing, but mordekaiser exchanges it for things like range

So. His W only steals HP from his own Aura?.

Also. I am not ignorant about Ms for power trade. Morde has a longer and better killzone than other Raid bosses.

Technically his Q has a 360% AD radio at max rank. at lv 18 with GB, Natural power and Stetak's that is (146.1.3+40+10)= 239.8 or 240 rounded up.

This means with no AP his damage is on all three hits combined is 864 magic damage + 200 base Q damage for a total of 1064.

So ok, I was bit wrong about the scaling of Mordes AD's power. however we can both agree that morde is a jugg's jugg. due to his high damage, tankiness with sustain being his main form of defense and trading MS for much better range/Killzone?

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

So ok, I was bit wrong about the scaling of Mordes AD's power. however we can both agree that morde is a jugg's jugg. due to his high damage, tankiness with sustain being his main form of defense and trading MS for much better range/Killzone?

well morde is a big metal dude tough and crushes people with a big weapon

that is what he should be, you would expect him to act like darius or nasus, going in the center of the fight and kill whoever is in front of him, however right now it's better to kill someone from range and get a clone

and yes he only steal hp from his own aura, his ally steals hp from the ally's aura but morde doesn't get anything from it

SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Dude critic me if you want but don't be that fucking harsh. Anyway since you have given me better insight to mode will edit that right away. Also Morde doesn't have room to get as many raw tank items compared to other juggs. so his final builds often mean that he doesn't have has much raw resistances as someone like darius. Sure he can drain train people but you also have to remember the pro's and con's of that. Not that I am saying that it's bad but you sound like an angry fanboy for two reasons:

One: Morde can't make proper use of his high AD, even with item 3053 and Q scaling. he is better off with AP.

Two: are you trying to imply that having the lowest MS in the game is a good thing?

That's not harsh, you're just soft.

The OP is a shitfest that tries to explain juggernauts but ends up not really adding anything more than what riot probably stated themselves.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

That's not harsh, you're just soft.

The OP is a shitfest that tries to explain juggernauts but ends up not really adding anything more than what riot probably stated themselves.

Next time, please read more of my discussion with I Am Rubick Sama. He already help me learn more about Morde.

I'd save you from looking like an utter dickhead.

Ralanr2 votes

If Mordekaiser is functioning better by killing people from range and letting the clone doing the work then that's just poor design.

Ahristocats1 votes

even before the rework he was like this, and even worse as his range was bigger

but yeah, it's the only good argument you can use against me on why mordekaiser needs a VGU, they will probably change his kit massively while keeping his R to make him a juggernaut instead of a half juggernaut, half ranged mage

Randomonium2 votes

Olaf is now considered a diver by Riot (though I agree he fits better with Juggernauts.) Great stuff.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

Olaf is now considered a diver by Riot (though I agree he fits better with Juggernauts.) Great stuff.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

Hey Randomonium great to see you. Riot have misclassified some Champs and a key trait of a diver is the ability to dash or quickly get into melee range to harass their target. The only jugg that even closely resembles a diver is Shyvana.

Ralanr2 votes

Olaf's ult too easily breaks the core rule of a juggernaut though, which puts him in the diver category.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, but Olaf doens't have the key strengths required to be a Diver either.

In fact, IMHO, we need a third Fighter sub-class where the likes of Olaf, Warwick, Volibear, Udyr, Mundo, Shyvana, Trundle, ... all live happily together.

I even wrote some stuff about it and tried to get Fearless and Meddler to look at it, but I've been unlucky until now. Here, have a look ;) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fSghVIlb1XdodKU0ze_gY4a57qwFFZWtuVX_d3Daryg/edit#gid=0 Any comment welcome :)

Ralanr1 votes

Wait why does Warwick not fit diver?

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, Warwick is on the fence, but I think his R is not reliable enough to qualify as a real Diver. It's closer to Shyvana's R than to Jarvan's or Vi's R.

The key difference between Divers and what I called Brawlers is that Divers can choose who they'll lock down. Brawlers can force a fight to happen, they can sorta engage, but they cannot focus a priority target.

All the "true" Divers have a targeted, point'n'click gap closer that can't be body-blocked, either on their ultimate or on another skill: Irelia, Xin, Jarvan, Vi, Camille, Diana, Pantheon, Wukong, Elise, Rengar. The rare champs that I would still consider Divers but who don't get a targeted gap closer at least get a non-bodyblockable dash to get to the back line, combined with some CC: Hecarim, Reksai and Lee Sin.

But the goal isn't to put a precise label on every single champ. It's to have a framework that makes sense and that ensure every champ has meaningful strengths and weaknesses. When I hear that Juggernauts are supposed to be weak to kiting and I see Trundle in the Juggernaut category, I die a little...

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

All the "true" Divers have a targeted, point'n'click gap closer that can't be body-blocked, either on their ultimate or on another skill: Irelia, Xin, Jarvan, Vi, Camille, Diana, Pantheon, Wukong, Elise, Rengar. The rare champs that I would still consider Divers but who don't get a targeted gap closer at least get a non-bodyblockable dash to get to the back line, combined with some CC: Hecarim, Reksai and Lee Sin.

Except that's an unhealthy aspect of divers that's probably going to get removed. Camille's main diving ability isn't her ult, it's her dodgable E.

DeathBurst1 votes

Vi R is gonna get removed? Jarvan R? Diana R? I can believe Xin, Irelia or Panth won't have the exact same gap closer after their reworks, especially Panth since it doubles up as both a gap closer AND an undodgeable CC, but you won't convince me that all the other point'n'click gap closers will be removed.

Especially since a Diver's kit with a non-targeted mobility spell is dangerously close to an Assassin's kit. The only reason Reksai or Hecarim or Lee aren't build as Assassins is because they are built tanky instead... in competitive play. Because in Silver and below, you still see some full AD Heca or Lee.

There is nothing inherently un-healthy with targeted mobility, to the contrary. It's a good restriction on something that tend to power-creep a lot in more recent years. The usual problem with point'n'click in general is the lack of counterplay, but what is true for damage or CC does not apply to the specific case of mobility: you can still interrupt them mid-dash with another displacement, you can CC them on arrival, etc.

Ralanr1 votes

Ultimate targeted dashes are fine. But basic ability single target dashes like Xin's don't really have counterplay.

DeathBurst1 votes

EDIT: My original post was rambling a bit, but I think I found a clear way to put it. Free-range mobility is more powerful than targeted mobility. Having point'n'click dash is a good restriction, not a case of no counterplay.

Original post below.


Xin dash still has more counterplay than any non-targeted dash... At least with Xin, it needs to get in range of the target first, he can't use it to cross walls at will, or to simply move faster when trying to catch up to you if you're already far. Forcing dashes to have a valid target in range before being able to move at all is a GOOD thing.

Are you actually saying all those things "have no counterplay" and should be removed?

  • Lucian and Graves dashes?
  • Gragas and Sejuani bodyslams?
  • Shen taunt?
  • etc. etc.

Actually, I'm just gonna link the wikia: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dash#Direction-targeted_dashes and http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dash#Ground-targeted_Dashes

Also, in the recent Champion Roadmap published a few hours ago, Reav3 pretty much confirmed that Xin would keep his dash unchanged.

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

EDIT: My original post was rambling a bit, but I think I found a clear way to put it. Free-range mobility is more powerful than targeted mobility. Having point'n'click dash is a good restriction, not a case of no counterplay.

Original post below.


Xin dash still has more counterplay than any non-targeted dash... At least with Xin, it needs to get in range of the target first, he can't use it to cross walls at will, or to simply move faster when trying to catch up to you if you're already far. Forcing dashes to have a valid target in range before being able to move at all is a GOOD thing.

But you can't actually avoid that dash and it doesn't really give him much room to fuck up.

Are you actually saying all those things "have no counterplay" and should be removed?

I'd argue that's what Riot is trying to do.

  • Lucian and Graves dashes?
  • Gragas and Sejuani bodyslams?
  • Shen taunt?
  • etc. etc.

All of these can be dodged or are mainly used for positioning rather than just jumping onto someone. And even so, I don't consider Lucian and Graves's dashes having no counterplay.

Actually, I'm just gonna link the wikia: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dash#Direction-targeted_dashes and http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dash#Ground-targeted_Dashes

Also, in the recent Champion Roadmap published a few hours ago, Reav3 pretty much confirmed that Xin would keep his dash unchanged.

Can't say I agree and personally I think Xin could use a full VGU instead of just a small gameplay update. But they'll do to Xin what they do to Xin and I can't stop it.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Well, but Olaf doens't have the key strengths required to be a Diver either.

In fact, IMHO, we need a third Fighter sub-class where the likes of Olaf, Warwick, Volibear, Udyr, Mundo, Shyvana, Trundle, ... all live happily together.

I even wrote some stuff about it and tried to get Fearless and Meddler to look at it, but I've been unlucky until now. Here, have a look ;) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fSghVIlb1XdodKU0ze_gY4a57qwFFZWtuVX_d3Daryg/edit#gid=0 Any comment welcome :)

Not bad, Fearless and Meddler should have commented on this at least. It's a change to the categorization shibob but it's not false. If and I do mean if Juggs to get split rather and than in theory having two further sub-classes then I can Freight Trains becoming brawlers.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah, my "Brawlers" are pretty close to your "Freight Trains". That being said, I think it was a mistake on your part to start from Juggernauts and sub-divise this class instead of starting from the whole Fighter arch-class, for three reasons:

  1. It's inelegant to have Juggernauts be the only sub-class with further subdivisions. Why a 3-level taxonomy only for them? There are good arguments to subdivise Assassins or Battlemage further, too.
  2. More importantly, it made you lose sight of the fact that there were some champs fitting your description of Freight Trains in the other sub-classes, such as Kled, Warwick or Skarner.
  3. Your definition of Juggernauts include "weak to kiting", and your Freight Trains can "even reach the back line sometimes", which is a bit contradictory. Freight Trains are simply not Juggernauts, just another sub-class of Fighters.

Brawlers and Freight Trains are not strictly equivalent though. In your system, I agree with Garen being a Freight Train, but in mine, I think he's still closer to a Juggernaut than to a Brawler. I believe my system is better because it defines the different classes in term of what they do, not how they do it. E.g. you talk about "using AA" or "having ranged ability", I talk about who they target and if they can engage. It's broader and more meaningful to compare different champions who are supposed to fill the same role.

To illustrate, let's come back to Garen: yes he is based on move speed and has no CC or ranged ability, but he still can't engage a fight like Voli or Udyr can, his threat level is more comparable to what Illaoi or Darius can do, with lots of AoE, and kill potential on pretty much anyone with his Armor shred and his R, and his durability is on the higher side of things (even though he sorely lacks in-combat sustain), closer to Yorick than to Shyvana. So in the end, what's more meaningful? Sorting Garen with Udyr and Volibear in the Freigh Trains, or with Illaoi and Darius in the Juggernauts?

Or course, my system is still not perfect, and I'm open to any suggestion ;)

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, my "Brawlers" are pretty close to your "Freight Trains". That being said, I think it was a mistake on your part to start from Juggernauts and sub-divise this class instead of starting from the whole Fighter arch-class, for three reasons:

  1. It's inelegant to have Juggernauts be the only sub-class with further subdivisions. Why a 3-level taxonomy only for them? There are good arguments to subdivise Assassins or Battlemage further, too.
  2. More importantly, it made you lose sight of the fact that there were some champs fitting your description of Freight Trains in the other sub-classes, such as Kled, Warwick or Skarner.
  3. Your definition of Juggernauts include "weak to kiting", and your Freight Trains can "even reach the back line sometimes", which is a bit contradictory. Freight Trains are simply not Juggernauts, just another sub-class of Fighters.

Brawlers and Freight Trains are not strictly equivalent though. In your system, I agree with Garen being a Freight Train, but in mine, I think he's still closer to a Juggernaut than to a Brawler. I believe my system is better because it defines the different classes in term of what they do, not how they do it. E.g. you talk about "using AA" or "having ranged ability", I talk about who they target and if they can engage. It's broader and more meaningful to compare different champions who are supposed to fill the same role.

To illustrate, let's come back to Garen: yes he is based on move speed and has no CC or ranged ability, but he still can't engage a fight like Voli or Udyr can, his threat level is more comparable to what Illaoi or Darius can do, with lots of AoE, and kill potential on pretty much anyone with his Armor shred and his R, and his durability is on the higher side of things (even though he sorely lacks in-combat sustain), closer to Yorick than to Shyvana. So in the end, what's more meaningful? Sorting Garen with Udyr and Volibear in the Freigh Trains, or with Illaoi and Darius in the Juggernauts?

Or course, my system is still not perfect, and I'm open to any suggestion ;)

Well All Juggs are weak to kiting, but Freight Trains can subvert that and flank much better than Raid Bosses. While Garen has some Raid boss trait's such has near tank like durability and the lack of AS steroids in his kit. I felt that He was a freight train because he ran up and dealt ticking damage with his spin. But maybe I should have labeled him as a hybrid but I was hesitant because he seem to lean more towards having more upfront damage than needed to ramp or set up his attack.

DeathBurst1 votes

Oh no, I totally agree that Garen should be a Freight Train inside your own system. That was just an example to illustrate some issues the system had, but I agree that it was logical to label Garen as a Freight Train.

My point is, the important thing is what Champions can (or cannot) do, what results they can achieve. Not HOW they do it, how they get to those results, but WHAT they do.

Whether a champ has ranged abilities or a move speed buff isn't important. But whether a champ can engage a team-fight or win any fight played on their terms is. Doesn't matter if the engage was made with a ranged Pillar of Ice (Trundle) or with a move speed buff + melee stun (Udyr).

In other words, you put the right labels on the right champs, based on the definitions you chose. But you didn't choose the most relevant definitions, I think. Do you see my point?

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Olaf's ult too easily breaks the core rule of a juggernaut though, which puts him in the diver category.

So does Shyvana.

Ralanr2 votes

Which is why Shyvana is considered a diver.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

Which is why Shyvana is considered a diver.

Shyvana can't properly diver without her ult and even then it's a once off attack until it wears off. Every diver( Apart from Olaf and skarner who are not really divers) HAVE A ON-HAND DASH OR GAP CLOSING ABILITY!

Sorry for the caps but a lot of people fail to see that it's what makes them divers. Also, unlike assassins they have poor disengage menting they have to stay in the battle and fight on and pray they didn't make a bad call.

Ralanr2 votes

Except it's not just the engage, but the sticking and chasing power.

Honestly Olaf and Shyvana both walk between diver and juggernauts, but they break rules of juggernauts that are too important to break if they are to be balanced around that class.

Diver allows them to break less important rules.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Except it's not just the engage, but the sticking and chasing power.

Honestly Olaf and Shyvana both walk between diver and juggernauts, but they break rules of juggernauts that are too important to break if they are to be balanced around that class.

Diver allows them to break less important rules.

If you are talking about kiting, well, Like I said. Shyvana's is unreliable and olaf just runs at you, so a wall can stop him. So even if Garen now has a cc reduction ability, does that mean he also breaks the "golden" rule about juggs to a lesser extend?

Ralanr2 votes

But they do have more consistent speed boosts.

Randomonium1 votes

Funny thing, Shyvana isn't considered a diver by Riot, she's considered a juggernaut. So we have Olaf with no gap closer now considered a diver and Shyvana with a gap closer not considered a diver.

Not trying to say one is right and one is wrong, just that consistency seems to be lacking in this area.

The third fighter subclass is an interesting idea, especially since fighters are the biggest class in the game.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing, Shyvana isn't considered a diver by Riot, she's considered a juggernaut. So we have Olaf with no gap closer now considered a diver and Shyvana with a gap closer not considered a diver.

Not trying to say one is right and one is wrong, just that consistency seems to be lacking in this area.

The third fighter subclass is an interesting idea, especially since fighters are the biggest class in the game.

This the point where anyone should call riot out on their bullshit right there. Saying shyvana is more of a jugg than Olaf what a fucking joke. They are both Juggs while Shyvana does lean more towards be a bit of a diver.

The whole shibob about having a third class could be nice and DeathBurs7 did make a pretty good suggestion about Brawlers being a third fighter class.

Salson2 votes

While the post itself is good, you forgot the best juggernaut Darius, which is weird as hell.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

While the post itself is good, you forgot the best juggernaut Darius, which is weird as hell.

OH SHIT. Thanks for the heads up.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

aren't the "freight trains" technically in the "fighter" category. also you forgot kled.

Critmaster Garen9 votes

{quoted}

aren't the "freight trains" technically in the "fighter" category. also you forgot kled.

kled isnt a jugg. hes too mobile.

mainly thanks to his e.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

tell riot to nerf his full tank titanic build then.

Ralanr10 votes

Camille can build the exact same dude. Kits determine class, not build.

Big Lincoln1 votes

she won't be nearly as threatening though

Ralanr1 votes

Probably because it's not her best build.

AwesomeGuyDj1 votes

{quoted}

tell riot to nerf his full tank titanic build then.

Thats not full tank. Full tank means you dont build any offensive stats, in favor of more defensive heavy items. Its a bruiser build. Titanic, black cleaver, Ga, steraks, (insert boots) and a stone plate or MaW is a typical build for him i would say.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

aren't the "freight trains" technically in the "fighter" category. also you forgot kled.

Read previous post I made about Juggs being further to two groups, the link in at the top. Also, Kled is a Diver/tanky Skirmisher.

Eternal7911 votes

Don't know if it was intentional since he hasn't hit live yet, but I think you forgot rework Urgot.

DeadUnborn1 votes

What you describe as "Freight train" is a failed arquetype Riot wants to stride away from. If you notice, all the freight trains are very old champs with very unhealthy kits. A similar thing happens with autoattack stat checkers like jax, irelia and xin zao (they have no in/out patterns). The arquetypes exist because Riot hasn't gotten around to updating the champs, but I don't think they should be classified as healthy or desireable

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

What you describe as "Freight train" is a failed arquetype Riot wants to stride away from. If you notice, all the freight trains are very old champs with very unhealthy kits. A similar thing happens with autoattack stat checkers like jax, irelia and xin zao (they have no in/out patterns). The arquetypes exist because Riot hasn't gotten around to updating the champs, but I don't think they should be classified as healthy or desireable

True, but I am not saying they are the best champs ever, but rather highlighting a stark difference between some juggernauts.

RizHippoKhan1 votes

i really wouldnt consider Shyvana skill shot reliant,most of the time u will E in melee range

Chaos Milk Tea1 votes

To help explain the distinction between freight trains and raid bosses, one needs to consider the three high damage types in league:

Burst: Deals a lot of damage all at once. Typically gated by high cool downs or relies on hard to set up conditions. While no as much damage over all, it is dealt so quickly squishy champions can not respond. Typically this pattern is seen on assassins.

Cycled: Deals continual pulses of damage, usually on medium or low cooldowns and typically has some sort of crowd control, dash, or heal/shield to help them engage amd reangage between moments of power. Usually on duelists and mages.

Sustained: The highest damage overall, but dealt over a longer period of time. These champions need to drag out fights and stay in attack range throughout to get their maximum potential. They are often necessary to kill high up characters, and will have built in healing or synergize well with healing items to help them drag out fights. Most are ranged adcs.

To bring this back to juggernauts, their design demands them to have longer drawn out fights to both compensate for and take advantage of their high survivability. Therefore sustained and cycled damage fit them best (freight trains and raid bosses). The freight trains deal damage over time, necesitatimg their ability to stick to targets and chase them down. Raid bosses have trouble reaching their prey, and so will often have abilities that extend their reach and apply c.c.. Every moment with their target is precious, so they will often deal considerable chunks of damage between control effects in an attempt to continue playimg with their food.

And of course there are always champions who are kinda in between.

Jackom11 votes

I liked your previous post, and I like this new one even more, although you wrote some incorrect things (morde can't be healed by the ally that is sharing his W, that champ will be healed by his own portion of the aura). I like that you kept Olaf as a jugger, I too think he doesn't fit at all as a diver: he may become immune to cc, but he just doesn't have a dash and/or a proper gapcloser.

Still, I have a question for you: what is you opinion on AS items

What I mean by that is: some juggs, like udyr and shyvana (and to an extent trundle) benefit so much from at least an AS item that they pretty much need one in every build. Problem is, all AS items right now don't give tankiness, which is something that basically every item made for juggernauts have. Black cleaver, Sterak, Titanic, Frozen mallet, all give both health and damage, fitting with the juggernaut theme of being hard hitting and hard to kill. But a shyvana that builds bloodrazor, instead of cinderhulk, will inevitably be less tanky than your average juggeranut, since she had to build an item that only gives damage. Basically it's a thing that annoys me. There are many juggernauts that benefit from AS, and some that basically need one or more AS items in their builds, but the only items that gives both Attack speed and tankiness is item 3091 , which is instead mainly used by champs like kayle and kog, and doesn't really perform well on juggs (at most it's situational).

Do you think that there should be an item better suited to AS focused jugger, that could possibly help some divers too? Or would you say that AS focused juggernauts are actually inteded to be less tanky than than those who just want straight damage.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

I liked your previous post, and I like this new one even more, although you wrote some incorrect things (morde can't be healed by the ally that is sharing his W, that champ will be healed by his own portion of the aura). I like that you kept Olaf as a jugger, I too think he doesn't fit at all as a diver: he may become immune to cc, but he just doesn't have a dash and/or a proper gapcloser.

Still, I have a question for you: what is you opinion on AS items

What I mean by that is: some juggs, like udyr and shyvana (and to an extent trundle) benefit so much from at least an AS item that they pretty much need one in every build. Problem is, all AS items right now don't give tankiness, which is something that basically every item made for juggernauts have. Black cleaver, Sterak, Titanic, Frozen mallet, all give both health and damage, fitting with the juggernaut theme of being hard hitting and hard to kill. But a shyvana that builds bloodrazor, instead of cinderhulk, will inevitably be less tanky than your average juggeranut, since she had to build an item that only gives damage. Basically it's a thing that annoys me. There are many juggernauts that benefit from AS, and some that basically need one or more AS items in their builds, but the only items that gives both Attack speed and tankiness is item 3091 , which is instead mainly used by champs like kayle and kog, and doesn't really perform well on juggs (at most it's situational).

Do you think that there should be an item better suited to AS focused jugger, that could possibly help some divers too? Or would you say that AS focused juggernauts are actually inteded to be less tanky than than those who just want straight damage.

Error's happen and I am glad you like the post.

Anyways, about Juggs and AS. I think many of them have AS in their kit is because AS item's apart from item 3078 and item 3091 don't grant tankiness. They need the AD combined with the AS in their kit to do any form of damage, That is why Bruiser items have AD and HP, because they don't need to worry about the extra AS unless you are Shyvana, Udyr or Trundle(at times) as they tend to prioritize shedding their target fast and vault having higher damage than other juggs, naturally because they deal more damage and are faster, they do suffer from a loss in tankiness but they are still hard to take down. thereby making them more bruiser, tougher than divers but less tanky than other freight trains and Raid bosses.

A jugg can get away with building one Offensive item and then sticking to building bruiser/tank items afterwards, otherwise they'll risk becoming less effective and die before they can do anything. I think that if ever there is an AS item that grants HP comes around, ADC's would want it for extra tankiness unless it was made to increase AS based on bonus hp from other items. But if that happened then Abusers like Darius and Chogath would end the game.

So personally i think it's better that AS items remained a purely offensive stat without getting any tanky stats and Trinity is ok as it is. And that those juggs are ok in trading a little tankiness for damage as long as they remain tanky.

Nefarious Yordle1 votes

I agree with some of the more controversial classifications, such as Mundo being a Juggernaut, as well as Trundle. These are controversial because they are usually referred to as tanks, but I think a champion can be a hybrid of multiple classes. And whenever it is a hybrid, it usually isn't as much of one thing than most pure types. For example, Maokai, Ornn, and Malphite, are a lot harder to kill due to their massive CC than Mundo or Trundle. On the other hand, Darius, Garen, and Illaoi all have much larger damage outputs than the aforementioned juggernauts.

However, Skarner is not a juggernaut. He has tons of utility and builds like a tank. His damage output is extremely low and never in his entire life would he be able to pop off in a teamfight. He's literally a CC bot, that's why he builds tank and Righteous Glory. Juggernauts are supposed to be able to win almost any 1v1 with those who dare enter melee range, which is not going to happen with Skarner at all.

Udyr is mainly centered around hit-and-run, not just popping off in a teamfight either. Udyr will not be able to 1v1 a strong dueling class like Fighters; only juggernauts can do such a thing. In my mind, Udyr is a fighter with just one juggernaut trait, which is the capacity to run really fast.

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