So when do we do something about Ardent Censor?

chipndip1·Feb 3, 2016·6 votes·925 views

The item is garbage. Complete garbage. The effect it had was decent from before, but Riot decided to make the attack speed buff weaker, yet last longer while adding a little ap damage per AA. The problem with this move is that LoL team fights end really fast. A lot happens in a very small time frame, and the adc won't be AA'ing non-stop for the full duration. Rather, they'll AA, move some, cast ult, AA 2-3 times on someone that's close up and hasn't reached them yet, move some more, and the battle is most likely ended by now. To boot, 30 magic damage a hit is hardly noticeable at all, especially since you can't even stand still to make use of it + it's reduced to like 15 - 20 magic damage after resistances. What's even worse is that with ZZ'Rot, Banner, and Sheen upgrade items available, I can't find an instance where I'd be grateful that I bought an Ardent Censor to help take down a turret, especially since it's not hard to take down a turret even without these items (they just make it so much easier). I'd like the 8% move speed and 100% mana regen, but holy crap this item sucks...

When do we do something useful with it?

30 Comments

JorenciceFeb 4, 20162 votes

I buy it 100% of the time on janna.

Every single Stat is one I need.

OleandervineFeb 3, 20161 votes

It's not a bad laning tool, and it is pretty good if you need to help take the dragon quickly from Bot lane.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not a bad laning tool, and it is pretty good if you need to help take the dragon quickly from Bot lane.

not a bad laning tool... which means it's the 3rd item that supports will pick? since you need sightstone and the gold gen upgrade way before Arden's and by that point Locket or something else would be way better than Arden's

ErockandrollFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

not a bad laning tool... which means it's the 3rd item that supports will pick? since you need sightstone and the gold gen upgrade way before Arden's and by that point Locket or something else would be way better than Arden's

Really, your talking about an 800 GP item, and the GP 10 item, doesn't even need to be completed. And even if you did, you can combined Sightstone with your GP item. So really it's only one item. you complete before going for Arden's.

{quoted}

support items that need some sort of change since as of now they aren't worth... one could argue about Zeke's but now that ADCs can reach 70%+ crit the item lost a lot of value since ADCs are critting way more reliably than before

Your thinking too much about the ADC's. You can recouple Zeek's to a completely different champion. And Arden's really helps everyone, I actually prefer the on hit damage over the extra AS. It's not entirely about what the ADC needs, it's what the team needs.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Really, your talking about an 800 GP item, and the GP 10 item, doesn't even need to be completed. And even if you did, you can combined Sightstone with your GP item. So really it's only one item. you complete before going for Arden's.

Your thinking too much about the ADC's. You can recouple Zeek's to a completely different champion. And Arden's really helps everyone, I actually prefer the on hit damage over the extra AS. It's not entirely about what the ADC needs, it's what the team needs.

yeah, i much rather have a dumb item that scales horribly by the MID GAME! than have an actual useful active item. Arden is a terrible item to get at ANY point of the game. The active of ANY of the gold gen items kick the ass of Arden's passive a million times before it even has a chance of fighting back. Sorry but if you really want to waste 2200 gold on an item that only scales in any way shape or form is because of the AS it gives (and even then it's stupidly low). There are so many better items you could get with those 2200 gold it's not even funny.

Yeah you can use it for other champions... doesn't mean much since how many other champions actually care enough about the crit chance that don't already build in some way shape or form? Fiora and Garen comes to mind and that's about it.

What the team needs is for their gold starved support to waste gold on terrible items. Get a locket, even against a full AD team the shield of the locket is way much more useful than Arden's Censer as a whole. Get Banner and send minions to splitpush for your team, hell grab goddamn Zzrot or Ohmwrecker! ANYTHING BUT ARDEN!

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not a bad laning tool, and it is pretty good if you need to help take the dragon quickly from Bot lane.

So you spend 2.2k on something you won't be able to afford until after laning...that sucks outside of taking early drags?

ZephyrDrakeFeb 3, 20161 votes

item 3504 item 3050 support items that need some sort of change since as of now they aren't worth... one could argue about Zeke's but now that ADCs can reach 70%+ crit the item lost a lot of value since ADCs are critting way more reliably than before

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

support items that need some sort of change since as of now they aren't worth... one could argue about Zeke's but now that ADCs can reach 70%+ crit the item lost a lot of value since ADCs are critting way more reliably than before

Adcs could always reach higher crit rates...they just didn't due to the meta. Now that the meta doesn't demand you buy a GA or Banshee's every game (or sometimes even armor pen if the enemy has too few tanks), they just build another crit item.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Adcs could always reach higher crit rates...they just didn't due to the meta. Now that the meta doesn't demand you buy a GA or Banshee's every game (or sometimes even armor pen if the enemy has too few tanks), they just build another crit item.

the most you would ever see ADCs reach before the change was 40%-50%, anymore and it was stupid since it came at the cost of damage. Now they can get 70% and not lose any damage

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

the most you would ever see ADCs reach before the change was 40%-50%, anymore and it was stupid since it came at the cost of damage. Now they can get 70% and not lose any damage

You LITERALLY don't know what you're talking about.

It's called building 2 PDs when they don't have dedicated tanks like Malphite or Maoki. Before the changes, you could land 90% crit carrying that + IE and then go on to build the rest of your build standard.

The thing you don't realize is that everyone built either GA or Banshee last, so the reason why people didn't buy more crit was because they were using late-game insurance instead. Now people go with multiple crit items anyway, forgoing the last defensive item. Adcs LOST damage, and are thus responding to this by being more offensive in their builds, especially since the strong adcs atm have a good deal of mobility.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You LITERALLY don't know what you're talking about.

It's called building 2 PDs when they don't have dedicated tanks like Malphite or Maoki. Before the changes, you could land 90% crit carrying that + IE and then go on to build the rest of your build standard.

The thing you don't realize is that everyone built either GA or Banshee last, so the reason why people didn't buy more crit was because they were using late-game insurance instead. Now people go with multiple crit items anyway, forgoing the last defensive item. Adcs LOST damage, and are thus responding to this by being more offensive in their builds, especially since the strong adcs atm have a good deal of mobility.

sorry but no, you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. You are losing damage if you built anything more than IE+Zeal item, barely anyone built GA or Banshee's last season. That slot was reserved for QSS or a second Zeal item if the enemy had no CC. Don't come here and saying "this really dumb and inefficient build says you are wrong". Now you can go IE+Zeal item+ER and have an easy 70% crit chance + 30% CDR and you lost nothing. I'm sorry to hear you were stuck in season 4 mentality and kept building GA or Banshee's last season

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

sorry but no, you are the one who has no idea what you are talking about. You are losing damage if you built anything more than IE+Zeal item, barely anyone built GA or Banshee's last season.

Yea...I think we're done here. Have fun with whatever you're saying.

LaoBushidoFeb 3, 20161 votes

I believe a long time ago (last year) they said something about a "enchanter" (healer and shielded) class update so that would have been a good time to update the item so I guess if that class of support is revised we would see Change then. On a side note I actually like zzrot

BoulderoxFeb 4, 20161 votes

well seeing as item 3092 and item 3050 , its useless.

AbyssphereFeb 4, 20161 votes

Honestly I'd just put a 5% per 100 AP ratio on the AS boost and a 10% AP ratio on the on-hit damage. Give the item some scaling even if it's minor. Anyone who buys Ardent will generally be getting FQC so you can assume roughly 100 AP, adding a nice 5% AS and 10 damage to the passive.

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I'd just put a 5% per 100 AP ratio on the AS boost and a 10% AP ratio on the on-hit damage. Give the item some scaling even if it's minor. Anyone who buys Ardent will generally be getting FQC so you can assume roughly 100 AP, adding a nice 5% AS and 10 damage to the passive.

I'd have it so it gave more attack speed in a shorter window, like it used to. As it is now, all it does is nothing. 15% attack speed with a measly 30 magic damage tacked on is way too lousy.

Also, 5%/100 ap for the attack speed means you need 300 ap for even 15% attack speed. Also, you'd need 300 ap for...30 magic damage on hit. This is a terrible idea unless these are added on top of the initial boosts, but that would probably just break AP Sona to the point of no tomorrow seeing how she'd actually hit around 300 ap in a decently long match (that'd literally double the values of the current iteration of the thing on 4 champs at the same time). Not sure if good idea.

AbyssphereFeb 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'd have it so it gave more attack speed in a shorter window, like it used to. As it is now, all it does is nothing. 15% attack speed with a measly 30 magic damage tacked on is way too lousy.

Also, 5%/100 ap for the attack speed means you need 300 ap for even 15% attack speed. Also, you'd need 300 ap for...30 magic damage on hit. This is a terrible idea unless these are added on top of the initial boosts, but that would probably just break AP Sona to the point of no tomorrow seeing how she'd actually hit around 300 ap in a decently long match (that'd literally double the values of the current iteration of the thing on 4 champs at the same time). Not sure if good idea.

I meant that the scaling would be on top of the existing bonuses. It's possible it'd cause problems but I find it hard to think of AP Sona threatening the balance of an item to be honest.

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I meant that the scaling would be on top of the existing bonuses. It's possible it'd cause problems but I find it hard to think of AP Sona threatening the balance of an item to be honest.

Remember how Sona jumped to almost a 55% win rate and doubled her play rate simply due to FQC being good? Sona's success as a whole is entirely tied to items she could abuse. If she's seen as strong, something's wrong with support itemization as a whole.

That said, Sona would be the worst abuser of such an added bonus. That's 30% attack speed and 60 magic damage on-hit for 10 seconds per W she casts on up to four people, with her W on a 6 second cd at 40% cdr. THAT seems a bit much...

AbyssphereFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Remember how Sona jumped to almost a 55% win rate and doubled her play rate simply due to FQC being good? Sona's success as a whole is entirely tied to items she could abuse. If she's seen as strong, something's wrong with support itemization as a whole.

That said, Sona would be the worst abuser of such an added bonus. That's 30% attack speed and 60 magic damage on-hit for 10 seconds per W she casts on up to four people, with her W on a 6 second cd at 40% cdr. THAT seems a bit much...

Sona jumped to a 55% win rate (from her standard 52-53%, so hardly a major change) because FQC went from horrendous to amazing and she got a keystone mastery that she uses unarguably better than every other champion in the support roster with the exception of Soraka and even then you can make the argument that she uses it better than Soraka does. The FQC change was particularly impactful on Sona because the safety the active offers her is more valuable to her than it is to anyone else as Sona and her ADC are easier to pick off and kill than any support + ADC combo.

The Frost Queen's Claim rework this pre-season is the first and only time Sona has had her balance majorly impacted by an item change in the support class and even then, a large part of the power boost she got can be attributed to the mastery rework rather than the item system. We didn't see anything wacky happening with her when Zeke's Harbinger was introduced, so we're 50/50 on major support item changes affecting Sona significantly. Refusing to add AP scaling to a support item because Sona likes AP is silly.

Obviously Sona would use Ardent Censer better than almost every support, that's the case right now. But given the current state of Ardent I don't think we should be complaining about someone actually wanting to pick it up occasionally. You're right that Sona with 300 AP would do a lot with the Censer buff, but there's no reason we couldn't nerf Sona (her synergy with AP perhaps?) should the need arise, if it'd allow us to make Ardent an actually good buy. Not that I'm massively convinced that that's necessary because "AP Sona"'s probably swapping out a high AP item to fit Ardent (40 AP) into her build in the first place.

I mean yes it might just be less complicated to just increase the flat values on Ardent's buff in comparison to adding AP scaling, but I feel like Ardent is pretty strong early on as is and needs help in not becoming completely irrelevant later on. Making it scale with AP gives you room there.

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sona jumped to a 55% win rate (from her standard 52-53%, so hardly a major change) because FQC went from horrendous to amazing and she got a keystone mastery that she uses unarguably better than every other champion in the support roster with the exception of Soraka and even then you can make the argument that she uses it better than Soraka does. The FQC change was particularly impactful on Sona because the safety the active offers her is more valuable to her than it is to anyone else as Sona and her ADC are easier to pick off and kill than any support + ADC combo.

The Frost Queen's Claim rework this pre-season is the first and only time Sona has had her balance majorly impacted by an item change in the support class and even then, a large part of the power boost she got can be attributed to the mastery rework rather than the item system. We didn't see anything wacky happening with her when Zeke's Harbinger was introduced, so we're 50/50 on major support item changes affecting Sona significantly. Refusing to add AP scaling to a support item because Sona likes AP is silly.

Obviously Sona would use Ardent Censer better than almost every support, that's the case right now. But given the current state of Ardent I don't think we should be complaining about someone actually wanting to pick it up occasionally. You're right that Sona with 300 AP would do a lot with the Censer buff, but there's no reason we couldn't nerf Sona (her synergy with AP perhaps?) should the need arise, if it'd allow us to make Ardent an actually good buy. Not that I'm massively convinced that that's necessary because "AP Sona"'s probably swapping out a high AP item to fit Ardent (40 AP) into her build in the first place.

I mean yes it might just be less complicated to just increase the flat values on Ardent's buff in comparison to adding AP scaling, but I feel like Ardent is pretty strong early on as is and needs help in not becoming completely irrelevant later on. Making it scale with AP gives you room there.

Here's the thing: Everything else that benefits Sona more than Season 5 (Winsdspeaker's, Lich buff, more room for ap when taking Watcher's) is the exact same, yet she's in a worse spot than she was before once you leave Bronze/Silver. FQC being too good effected Sona (and a few others) literally that much. In any case that ap support itemization could have a major balancing flaw, Sona's value as a champ is going to jump significantly since she as a champ is entirely defined by her itemization.

Also, we can't nerf Sona because holy shit what else is there to nerf? EVERYTHING on her's been nerfed on rapid repeat to the point where she's at now. More nerfs would probably cause major outrage, especially considering the sheer mention of the thought from Repetoir (maybe Meddler, forget which) during the preseason had a whole bunch of people on edge already.

More on topic: I'd either revert it back to the way it was or slightly increase the AA speed, the on-hit magic damage, and then decrease the buff's duration. Main thing is that it needs to return back to more of a bursty buff than something that overstays its welcome.

AbyssphereFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: Everything else that benefits Sona more than Season 5 (Winsdspeaker's, Lich buff, more room for ap when taking Watcher's) is the exact same, yet she's in a worse spot than she was before once you leave Bronze/Silver. FQC being too good effected Sona (and a few others) literally that much. In any case that ap support itemization could have a major balancing flaw, Sona's value as a champ is going to jump significantly since she as a champ is entirely defined by her itemization.

Also, we can't nerf Sona because holy shit what else is there to nerf? EVERYTHING on her's been nerfed on rapid repeat to the point where she's at now. More nerfs would probably cause major outrage, especially considering the sheer mention of the thought from Repetoir (maybe Meddler, forget which) during the preseason had a whole bunch of people on edge already.

More on topic: I'd either revert it back to the way it was or slightly increase the AA speed, the on-hit magic damage, and then decrease the buff's duration. Main thing is that it needs to return back to more of a bursty buff than something that overstays its welcome.

But FQC is still far superior to its season 5 version, so if Sona is somehow weaker now than she was in season 5 then that seems to say that there's more to Sona's balance than how strong the systems that support her are. That said, I'm not sure where you get the idea that she's worse now than she was in S5 anyway. I know you get that Sona saw a major jump in performance at the start of the pre-season (5.22), but when you compare 5.22 Sona to 6.2 Sona the difference isn't that big:

5.22 Plat+ Winrate: 52.96% 6.2 Plat+ Winrate: 52.00%

5.22 Plat+ Play Rate: 6.22% 6.2 Plat+ Play Rate: 5.91%

She's dropped off a bit since the start of the pre-season but that still puts her comfortably above where she was before it came. I'm pretty sure her win rate right now is about equal to where it was before the pre-season, but her play rate is still about double of where it was before the pre-season came. Judging by the best metrics we have for balance, she's doing better than she was in season 5, not worse.

I don't get how in the same discussion that you a discuss a world in which Sona would be broken as hell (saying my buffed Ardent Censer would make her break the game), you say that we can't nerf her. A champion cannot simultaneously be extremely overpowered and yet weak to the point where she's in crisis. In a world where Sona is too strong, she is too strong. Champions that are too strong can get nerfed. The reason there was so much outrage about the prospect of Sona being nerfed a few weeks back was because she wasn't too strong, she was just good. If she hits a 58% winrate after an item change then the only people complaining about her being nerfed will be the deluded fanboys that proclaim "Meddler secretly plans to delete Sona!" to everyone who'll listen.

Re: Ardent, I'm not certain on a revert being the best way to go about it but I do agree that changing the length of the buff to be shorter but more impactful during the buff would be a good idea. I'd like to keep the on-hit damage personally.

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But FQC is still far superior to its season 5 version, so if Sona is somehow weaker now than she was in season 5 then that seems to say that there's more to Sona's balance than how strong the systems that support her are. That said, I'm not sure where you get the idea that she's worse now than she was in S5 anyway. I know you get that Sona saw a major jump in performance at the start of the pre-season (5.22), but when you compare 5.22 Sona to 6.2 Sona the difference isn't that big:

Don't use champion.gg. They don't update information consistently enough. Use LeagueofGraphs.com instead.

With this said, Sona has fallen to almost less than 3% play rate on a 51% win rate. SIGNIFICANTLY worse than where she used to be during the preseason, which was about double the play rate on about 54% - 53%. Before the preseason...she had about these exact stats.

She's dropped off a bit since the start of the pre-season but that still puts her comfortably above where she was before it came.

Actually she is EXACTLY where she was before the preseason. 3% play rate on around a 51% win rate. That's basically non-existent.

I don't get how in the same discussion that you a discuss a world in which Sona would be broken as hell (saying my buffed Ardent Censer would make her break the game), you say that we can't nerf her.

You can't nerf her because she'd be garbage if you did. You can't give Ardent Censor ap ratios because no other support besides the greatest user of the passive commonly builds even above 200 ap in a match.

A champion cannot simultaneously be extremely overpowered and yet weak to the point where she's in crisis.

You're right. She's in a terrible spot of balancing where over-buffing a single item that pertains to her will make her seem broken while she can abuse it, but outside of that she's relatively unviable at higher levels of play outside of lack of match-up experience.

The reason there was so much outrage about the prospect of Sona being nerfed a few weeks back was because she wasn't too strong, she was just good.

No, it was because FQC made her and a few others seem way stronger than they actually were.

If she hits a 58% winrate after an item change then the only people complaining about her being nerfed will be the deluded fanboys that proclaim "Meddler secretly plans to delete Sona!" to everyone who'll listen.

No, it means the item she's probably abusing the hell out of was over-buffed...

Re: Ardent, I'm not certain on a revert being the best way to go about it but I do agree that changing the length of the buff to be shorter but more impactful during the buff would be a good idea. I'd like to keep the on-hit damage personally.

I think the on-hit damage makes it a bit more noticeable, but yea, the duration needs to be reduced while the benefits need to be buffed to compensate.

Grey FortuneFeb 4, 20161 votes

Build path is crucial for supports. Still not sure why item 3050 doesn't build from item 3113 + item 3024 but . . .

item 3113 and item 3114 are not very good for the gold you spend so it's a small wonder that item 3504 suffers in its current state. Unless they have plans for a support item 3070 item they need a few new items.

Right now, item 3190 and item 3222 are so much better for intercepting/ reversing damage.

I would like to see an item for champs that can shield/ heal a whole team though. Janna Karma Soraka amongst others.

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grey Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KEzuApw,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-02-04T04:26:45.582+0000)

Build path is crucial for supports. Still not sure why doesn't build from + but . . .

and are not very good for the gold you spend so it's a small wonder that suffers in its current state. Unless they have plans for a support item they need a few new items.

Right now, and are so much better for intercepting/ reversing damage.

I would like to see an item for champs that can shield/ heal a whole team though. amongst others.

Build path for Zeke's doesn't have Aether Wisp because it gives cdr, not movement speed (most support items have cdr).

The mana regen and the movement isn't the problem. It's the passive.

Locket and Crucible have NOTHING to do with what Ardent does...

...and Ardent Censor is already an item that does things for champs that can shield/heal a whole team. -_-

Grey FortuneFeb 14, 20161 votes

The reason I think item 3050 should build should from item 3113 is because other than item 3742 everything that gives ms, and a buff that stacks based on movement. e.g: item 3285 item 3087 item 3094 has movement speed on it. It Fits the genre of item, and doesn't clog up your inventory.

As for ardent censor, Items on ANY champ should help that champ do what they do, only better. If you want to give on hit damage, then Lulu Nami and Leona are strong picks, especially with zekes.

Champions that focus on heals and shields in the thick of combat are better off making sure those shields stay intact and that the heals stick. Both item 3190 and item 3222 on champs that do that ( Janna Soraka ) can allow the teams marksman (and other Squishies) to hold off on items like qss and banshees veil, even to the point of allowing them to go 6 dmg items with impunity.

If you would like to see Adent Cesor as a combat Item, It would need to go the way of Zeke's Herald.

Side note: what if to built from item 3057 + item 3114 +gold= item 3504 and gave a version of spell blade to the recipients of a heal/ shield? Might cause people to skip finishing their gold item though. Spell blade is just one of those things that becomes indispensable if it becomes too available ( like whenever they buff trinity force).

tldr: I see your point, but champion Identity is important to consider when buffing/ changing items.

ProfirixFeb 4, 20161 votes

The only champion I EVER get item 3504 on is Lulu when supporting KogMaw . Any other champion is just too inefficient to get use out of it. With Kogmaw, you are getting double your AS value plus an insane amount of on-hit damage. It also synergizes with Help Pix! The item needs a significant rework and/or buff.

Dominick DestineFeb 4, 20161 votes

I like item 3504 on Sona .

You can trigger it twice with a single W. Although people favor AP burst Sona, I am still a traditionalist and play her full support. Fuck the haters. Supportna ftw.

That said; I tend to agree, it could stand to gain a slight buff... maybe have the AP damage scale with level, something like 20 - 50 per hit instead of a flat value.

Duke AnaxFeb 14, 20161 votes

They should put the effect on minions back

Nanuk PihoqahiakFeb 14, 20161 votes

The item is a case where it's either going to be too strong and up near-permanently or not up enough to justify support-income purchasing it. Someone like Alistar loves this item, especially when characters like Xin / Jax / Yi are popular. In contrast, someone like Janna or Soraka make meager use of it, only keeping it up on one target with any relatively high uptime.

chipndip1Feb 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nanuk Pihoqahiak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KEzuApw,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-02-14T08:48:46.688+0000)

The item is a case where it's either going to be too strong and up near-permanently or not up enough to justify support-income purchasing it. Someone like Alistar loves this item, especially when characters like Xin / Jax / Yi are popular. In contrast, someone like Janna or Soraka make meager use of it, only keeping it up on one target with any relatively high uptime.

The problem is that, with the pacing changes, even if games last longer than they did before when they were stompy as all hell, you still don't really need an Ardent Censor. Guys like Yi/Jax/Xin can take towers just fine without it anyway. The small AS boost isn't more valuable than an Aegis aura item would be, or even an Abyssal or a Frozen Heart. The item is either too strong or too weak to be worth buying, and items and champs like those are the first things that need to be dealt with in the game.