And I don't like playing any of them so I'm gonna complain about it.
But seriously though, that doesn't seem healthy at all.
Edit: I should add that is only 23.5% of ADCs
Edit#2: I based this off of op.gg which I didn't realize was using data from only Korea. Still relevant though
Edit#3: Some people mistook this post to mean that I am saying ADCs in general are too weak. That's not the case, I just wanted to put this statistic out there for discussion.
Attticus Finch12 votes"Dude its an ADC meta"
Critmaster Garen11 votes[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-08T04:50:31.488+0000)
"Dude its an ADC meta"
every game has 2 adc on bot lane. adc are pushing other adc out of the meta.
this means if some adc have positive winrates and most adc have negative winrates, then those few adc are significantly stronger than the ones with lower winrates.
almost the entire class of champions always lanes against each other every game in the same lane. whichever side wins snowballs to ridiculous levels. most of the time before youve finished an item on top lane, one of the bot lanes is already pushing for an inhib turret or rotating around the map.
hence adc winrates only tell you how adc do against each other, and it doesnt tell you shit about how they compare to the rest of the champion pool.
top lane on the other hand has the largest and most diverse champion pool and is filled with a champion pool of extreme varieties in playstile. top lane is heavily counterpick oriented. even a top laner with a high winrate might not always be the best top laner, and can have a high winrate due to being a counterpick that is only ever picked in response to certain specific other top laners.
on the other hand an adc with a high winrate is usually simply the best adc and shits on all other adc.
yes, at least until next patch where we will be getting bruiser buffs, its still an adc meta because bot lane still has the largest game impact.
Anonagon25 votesThis doesn't at all mean that ADCs aren't dominant in the current metagame. As Critmaster pointed out, because ADCs almost exclusively go in one position against a single other ADC, their winrates really only are indicative of their power relative to each other, not to the champion pool as a whole.
What this data really tells us is just how ridiculously far out of line the dominant ADCs are right now. While the data is inconsistent between various sites, what is consistent is Ezreal and MF at the top with 54%+ winrates, while the only other "good" ADCs may barely break 51%. So while ADCs as a whole are a problem right now, Ezreal and MF are just especially broken.
Attticus Finch4 votes"because ADCs almost exclusively go in one position against a single other ADC, their winrates really only are indicative of their power relative to each other"
This is an illogical conclusion because ADCs don't fight each other in a vacuum. There are at minimum 4 champions bot lane at any given time, and bot also statistically has the most jungler interaction, bumping that number up to 5 or even 6 champions. That is far too many factors to make "if an ADC loses, that means the other ADC was stronger" a likely correlation.
Akumu4 votesThat is far too many factors to make "if an ADC loses, that means the other ADC was stronger" a likely correlation.
In a single game yes, in thousands of games however it is not as you put it an 'illogical conclusion'. Especially in the current state of the game where basically one bot lane wins hard and the other gets crushed and this most of the time decides the game outright.
Anonagon8 votes[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-08T06:48:11.654+0000)
because ADCs don't fight each other in a vacuum.
Except they do, from a statistical standpoint. If one ADC (by position) wins, another ADC (by position) loses. That's just how the game works, so an ADC's winrate by position is only important insofar as it compares to another ADC's winrate by position. This is actually true for every position in the game.
Akumu2 votesThis doesn't at all mean that ADCs aren't dominant in the current metagame. As Critmaster pointed out, because ADCs almost exclusively go in one position against a single other ADC, their winrates really only are indicative of their power relative to each other, not to the champion pool as a whole.
What this data really tells us is just how ridiculously far out of line the dominant ADCs are right now. While the data is inconsistent between various sites, what is consistent is Ezreal and MF at the top with 54%+ winrates, while the only other "good" ADCs may barely break 51%. So while ADCs as a whole are a problem right now, Ezreal and MF are just especially broken.
Ya and of course instead of nerfing the ADCs that are too strong in typical Riot fashion they will buff every other ADC to a broken level further cementing ADC dominance. Meanwhile when a couple of mages are out of line and the rest of the roster sucks balls, what does Riot do? Just nerfs the strong mages.
The Oasis2 votesEzreal technically got nerfs with this last patch, whether or not they went far enough. Although I was surprised to see that Miss Fortune didn't even get a love tap.
Disembark7 votesSo why doesn’t Lucian/Ashe/Trist/Ezreal have good win rates in off roles? Hmm?
If ADCs are so “out of line”, then they would dominate other roles too? Right?
But ADCs have shit win rates outside of bot.
Ezreal & Twitch JG hovers 48% w/r EVEN with low pick rates
Trist JG is hilariously bad with 42% w/r.
Lucian mid sitting at 44%.
Even Quinn is sitting at 49% top - IN A LETHALITY META, she loves the lethality meta. Also Vayne top is like 46%.
Why are they confined in bot lane if they’re so broken???
Anonagon11 votesThey aren't confined to bot lane. The low winrates of off-lane ADCs can be attributed to how much taking a second ADC generally cripples a teamcomp. ADCs are a broken class right now, but luckily they aren't so broken as to make teams able to completely ignore other roles.
Disembark7 votesSo what you’re saying is 0 adc = bad, 1 ADC = good, and 2+ adc = bad.
And somehow they’re a broken class.
This makes no sense. How are they broken if that’s literally what they’re designed for? To be played bot lane (less reliant on XP, more reliant on gold).
Explain to me how they’re broken, you keep saying they’re broken “just cuz” .
saltran5 votesWelcome to Boards.
Yets42403 votesWhen they are 1 out of 12 clases, and competeing for 1 out of 5 positions, and they get it every single time for both teams Yes. That is a problem. A serious one, we've had for 7 fucking years.
Disembark1 votesIf its been like that for 7 years then why the hell is it a PROBLEM? Its like saying "red buff is a problem, its been here for 7 years".
????? ????
There literally is no logical equivalence. Riot designed the game in a certain way - that's the game you play. It's not a "problem" just because something is part of the game that you personally don't like.
Riot has designed the game in a certain way PARTICULARLY in a way where they want a marksman in the bottom lane. That design has made their game INCREDIBLY successful, so why should they overhall it, do some Dota-esque shit with increasing turret range blah blah etc when their game is WILDLY successful the way they've made it?
So someone please fucking explain to me why it's a "problem" that adc is a "mandatory" role (it's not even "mandatory" in SoloQ - just optimal, a lot of people climb high playing off-meta shit bot lane).
Also the "1 out of 12 classes" is hilarious too. Why do fighters/bruisers/juggernauts/divers all get seperate classes when they are pretty similar - but all ADCs where a lot of them are vastly different (compare Ezreal (poke) to Jinx (hypercarry), or Lucian (skirmisher) to Ashe (utility)). And they all individually fall in and out of meta
Race My Jayce4 votesIts a bot lane meta, not an ADC meta. Whoever wins bot wins game.
ampheon1 votesNot if you have twitch on your team and you're unranked
Troll for Trump2 votesIt's almost always an ADC meta, because the game is centered around ADCs. That doesn't mean that ALL ADCs are good, as they rotate. But the ADC class is always prominent and always found in every game.
Mages don't need to be in every game. Assassins don't. Enchanters don't. Tanks don't. Bruisers don't. Marksmen do.
Need Gold 4 Tent3 votes[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-08T04:50:31.488+0000)
"Dude its an ADC meta"
It's been ADC meta since season Ashe moved out of midlane. Though they are moving back in ther, and invading top while at it. You have ADC every single game, it's just a matter of which ADC.
Ahri Baka1 votes[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-08T04:50:31.488+0000)
"Dude its an ADC meta"
adc meta yet still only 4 adc with high winrate , the logic tho
Mordepool7 votesOnly 4 Juggernauts have positive winrate.
Meh seems fine sure my main isn't doing well but whatever
Lunar Lunacy4 votesOnly 4 Juggernauts have positive winrate.
Meh seems fine sure my main isn't doing well but whatever
Fair enough
I like these little tidbits of information, it's nice to try to pool them together to put things into perspective better.
Like how many ad assassins have positive winrates vs. how many ap assassins or burst mages for example
What do those champions that have a positive winrate have in common, if anything, that they don't share with the champions with negative winrates?
The deeper you dig the more you find how difficult balancing this many champions really can be
Mordepool2 votesTrue that. I think they account for lane hard counters, but I'm not sure they account for enemy ADC factor. For example I could be fed on Morde but if they have a Vayne or Tristana on the enemy team it's almost a gaurenteed loss for Morde since I have no way of ever locking them down during a fight
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesAs Morde, just don't worry about those two then. Let your mid or jungler handle them. Just try to get a slow on them, and ult them before they die if you have the chance to. Focus on beating down the frontline, you have the damage and sustain to do it. You can also nuke their assassins when they jump in, given that the slows you have from Rylai's and Gunblade should really fuck them up, and you do damage on-par with them, while having better defenses.
If you can't be useful for one thing, try being useful for something else. If worst comes to worst, go split-push top. They'll need to answer you with multiple people.
Mordepool2 votesSee here is the thing about Morde. He isn't effective vs thier front line. Killing assassins sure easy. Frontline not really since his Q damage scales the more damage he deals resistance stack which frontline tanks do. Effectively negate alot of damage by Reducing how much it scales per hit.
Rand0mH3r0X5 votes14 Champions have 40% of total play in all games.
LegitBusinessman5 votes14 Champions have 40% of total play in all games.
There were two years where champion diversity at worlds was just absurdly high. Then Riot was like 'LETS MAKE NEW MASTERIES AND BREAK THINGS THAT ARE WORKING FINE' 10 THUNDERLORDS A GAME OH BOYYYY.
Lunar Lunacy5 votesTo expand on my original post, 28 top laners have positive winrates. 21 junglers. 24 midlaners. 18 supports.
Just to add a little perspective.
Anonagon5 votesThe numbers alone don't add perspective because they're all out of different totals. You should show these as percentages out of the total champion pools of those lanes.
Lunar Lunacy12 votesThe numbers alone don't add perspective because they're all out of different totals. You should show these as percentages out of the total champion pools of those lanes.
Okay.
28/55 top laners, 50.9% 21/38 junglers, 55.2% 24/45 mid laners, 53.3% 18/34, supports 52.9%
4/17 adcs, 23.5%.
Granted, this is mostly counting the more "meta" picks for each role
Anonagon3 votesCool, thanks.
vgamedude5 votes9 actually. Youre probably looking at op gg. Thats out of 17 as well.
Lunar Lunacy3 votes9 actually. Youre probably looking at op gg. Thats out of 17 as well.
Is it bad to be looking at op.gg? Please let me know if they have faulty information and where I can find more accurate numbers, I don't want to be spreading misinformation
vgamedude6 votesIsn't op gg Korean only?
Disembark1 votesThey have a much larger ranked pool than NA and their SoloQ is generally more competitive - so I’d think it’s better data.
AbiwonKenabi7 votesA more limited data pool is not better data. This data doesn't include things like regional tendencies and favorites.
Like remember when Morgana support first started being popular? She was played mostly in NA and EU, so KR server data wouldn't have reflected that, making it inaccurate data.
LankPants2 votesIt's a good idea to at least cross check another site though
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/detailed/
Lolalytics says there are 6 botlaners, 5 of whom have relevant pick rates above a 50% winrate, so I'd say the point's still relevant.
Lock On5 votes"ADCs are BROKEN" "DELETING tanks!" Said no player with their eyes open ever.
Heos004 votes[{quoted}](name=Lock On,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-12-08T08:41:45.391+0000)
"ADCs are BROKEN" "DELETING tanks!" Said no player with their eyes open ever.
A teemo 5/5 does more damage than a Vayne 10/3 ROFL and an adc in this meta is most likely to get oneshooted even by a support lololol
FatedSaviour1 votesmeanwhile as full ap nami mid XD
Executioner1 votesStill have yet to delete a tank as an ADC, even with cut down.
Tortunga5 votesHonestly speaking this doesn't come as an surprise to me, as just from the state of the game you can write off certain ADC to do well;
I think if they bring MF/Ezreal and lethality down a bit, ADC's winrate should get closer to each other.
Sleepcoma5 votesthe 4 adcs with such high win rates crowd out the others who are below a 50% wr. so basically what your saying is “buff adc” because you don’t know how to play them. if adcs were weak you wouldn’t be seeing team comes with more than 1 tank ever. just because your bad at them doesn’t give you the right to complain because of your single skill level. the higher elo the better adc becomes as supports know how to keep you alive better and you can position better.
tldr; your post means 4 adcs are way too strong and your not good at playing adc and want them to get buffed so you can succeed
Lunar Lunacy2 votes[{quoted}](name=ADC Stalker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-12-08T15:30:04.404+0000)
the 4 adcs with such high win rates crowd out the others who are below a 50% wr. so basically what your saying is “buff adc” because you don’t know how to play them. if adcs were weak you wouldn’t be seeing team comes with more than 1 tank ever. just because your bad at them doesn’t give you the right to complain because of your single skill level. the higher elo the better adc becomes as supports know how to keep you alive better and you can position better.
tldr; your post means 4 adcs are way too strong and your not good at playing adc and want them to get buffed so you can succeed
I actually never said that the the ADC class in general is too weak, I was just posting a statistic for other people to judge. Nowhere in this thread have I even offered my own suggestion as to WHY only four adcs have a positive winrate, I was leaving it open for discussion.
I guess some people mistook my post for saying that the ADC class in general is weak right now but that is simply not the case. If the problem lies with the outliers, then I am more than happy just to see that become the focus for balance.
Thanks for pointing out how bad I am though, that was necessary.
Sleepcoma1 votessorry for the flame dude, I was really tired and misunderstood your post. I do agree that the stats your provided is unhealthy for the game though
Imperial Pandaa4 votesI mean, I have been seeing a lot of adcs in too and mid currently too. Could be enough to skew results.
Sona Ping3 votesYeah, probably. But you can't say that around these parts.
Athenes Lulu3 votesShould highlight that it's only 23% of all ADCs in your original post.
That's where the issue is.
Thefrostyviking2 votes49-51% is balanced for the marksmen, since at least 2 of them are always played in a game, it's only when they drop beneath 49 or rise above 52% that you need to start wondering if something´s going on.
But yeah, when they are all fairly balanced they will all be sitting at 49-51%.
warpenguin5552 votesEz and MF or so broken it's hurting the rest of the roles stats lol
LordGeovanni1 votesmaybe consider that everyone is picking them to try to hard carry games but dont know what that entails and unlike most other classes even though there are a top 4 adcs most adcs are playable.