I suddenly realized something monumentous

SpecterVonBaren·Dec 1, 2015·31 votes·2,561 views

..... CertainlyT finally did it... he finally designed something and aside from the hot-fix nerfs he got, he's fine.

He's not incredibly hair pullingly frustrating to play against, he's not impossible for Riot to balance without gutting him, and yet he still feels unique. I mean I know he only changed his passive and Q but still, considering how every other champ he's touched has ended up, this is potentially a fantastic step in the right direction for his designs.

54 Comments

GentzerDec 1, 201528 votes

He also did the Caitlyn rework if my memory serves, another rework I feel was successful.

Remlap1223Dec 1, 20155 votes

It really does go to show that he isn't incompetent, he just cannot deviate from what he envisions his champions to be. It's fine to be defensive of your work, but you also need to reel yourself in and have someone peer review it so it doesn't go off the rails.

I think that Caitlyn and Graves are the best examples of that.

A Miss FortuneDec 1, 20156 votes

I don't think him making two successful reworks (one of which wasn't initially successful) is a good reason to say he's a competent designer. Mind you that he still created some of the most toxic, heavily overpowered/broken champions in the game, almost all of which have overloaded kits. (Legit Kalista and Yasuo's passiveS are at least two paragraphs long each)

Lazypeon100Dec 1, 201511 votes

I think graves being op at first is less to do with the design, and more with the balance team, so I think it is unfair to put that initial blame on CetainlyT.

SinlaireDec 1, 20156 votes

Riot has even stated that designers just make the kit. they dont actually designate numbers. That part is entirely in the realm of the balance and gameplay teams.

So we're still give him a passing grade on this i say.

Chicken4dinnerDec 1, 201522 votes

As you noticed it still follows the CertainlyT formula of giving a champion a distinctiveness that allows them to be easily differentiated from every other champ of the same calibre.

In other words very unique

The only difference is that he didn't overload the champion in the process and throw his identity out of the window but rather accentuated and cemented it

Remlap1223Dec 1, 201510 votes

So what you're saying is to keep him on the rework team, but keep him off new champs?

RetillinDec 1, 20156 votes

Minor reworks... we don't have him working on something like Sion/Poppy/Taric. Those are basically new champions.

Chicken4dinnerDec 1, 20155 votes

Until he gets a grasp of how other champs achieve balance while still retaining a unique identity he should probably keep practicing on graves-level reworks

DrugothDec 2, 20153 votes

Do you guys all read the stuff you write? All of this judgement passing feels like you're a bunch of chairmen in Riot's boardroom analyzing someone's work you have a right to. So... patronizing it's sickening.

KeevalroyDec 2, 20155 votes

This is a designer who didn't respond to the Mordekaiser fans after his failure of a rework had gone on for months without any form of communication or compromise because he felt they didn't deserve an answer from him. Are we still patronizing?

DrugothDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

because he felt they didn't deserve an answer from him. Are we still patronizing?

Really? So you know what people feel? It definatly had nothing to do with him having deflated somewhat after reading some of the criticism he was receiving for something he worked really hard on and hoped people would like? Some of the stuff the playerbase were saying were downright uncalled for, maybe his vision wasn't the same as millions of others but can he be at fault for being a unique person? The internet has really made video game developers really sad recently because the shared aspect of mass anonymity and callous people tends to make people a little underappreciative of real efforts.

Long story short, developers and designers have to deal with a lot of bullshit flying at them from angry childish playerbase unlike the old days where a lot of information wasn't available to the public and they didn't have such a public forum that also offered instaneous response to released content and anonymity. The internet makes everyone a bunch of assholes just wanting to shit all over everybody. Well i'm a dick, and dicks @#$% assholes, so there.

V The Support VDec 2, 20151 votes

[deleted]

KeevalroyDec 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=V The Support V,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5EXIij0A,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-02T16:22:28.835+0000)

Offer a solution or stop crying.

We have for years, nothing matters because he stonewalls the community so he can focus on his grand vision. I wouldn't expect a blind white knight see that though.

V The Support VDec 2, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Chicken4dinnerDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The only difference is that he didn't overload the champion in the process and throw his identity out of the window but rather accentuated and cemented it

He solved his own problem

A Miss FortuneDec 1, 20158 votes

Still doesn't excuse his previous works like Kalista, Mordekaiser, Yasuo, Thresh, etc. All of his designs have ended up being absolutely broken or overpowered on release and almost all of them still have major design issues with their kits.

V The Support VDec 1, 20153 votes

Yet they all have become unique staples in the game.

Doctor JarvisDec 1, 20159 votes

Not because they were fair or fun to play against, but because they were inherently UNFAIR and stupid to fight.

KeevalroyDec 1, 20156 votes

Unique, unhealthy, broken, obnoxious staples.

V The Support VDec 3, 20151 votes

But unique staples none the less.

AudiomancyDec 1, 20152 votes

Zyra

HawkefireDec 1, 20157 votes

CertainlyT's only real problem is the fact that he usually doesn't listen to player feedback while making something. He doesn't seem to be able to take criticism very well and that is really his only flaw. I love his champion designs and think many of them are very cool, I just wish he would listen to the players about certain mechanics more often

V The Support VDec 2, 20152 votes

From what I see people just complain and don't offer any legit solutions. He can't be the shoulder for everyone to cry on.

HawkefireDec 2, 20151 votes

Most people do just blindly complain without offering solutions, but I have seen many people offer up reasonable well-thought posts labeling the problem and even suggesting some ways to fix it just go completely ignored.

Also, if a lot of people are complaining about something in specific, odds are, that thing being complained about has something wrong with it.

Meep ManDec 1, 20155 votes

CertainlyT needs to design more Marksman it seems.

ZedexDec 1, 20154 votes

He didn't design a single marksmen. He tweaked two.

The FastDec 2, 20153 votes

He designed Kalista mang

KeevalroyDec 2, 20152 votes

So no one was responsible for this cancerous abomination?

Kalista

V The Support VDec 2, 20151 votes

When you do something different from everything else you can't be sure how it will turn out. There are only two options;

Release champ - It's overtuned- Labeled a cancerous failure - Gets played a TON/Lots more data - quick fixes are put out swiftly to bring back in line. (Kalista)

Release champ - It's undertuned - Labeled a useless failure - Rarely gets played/Very little data - Takes forever to bring up to par or gets aggressively over compensated. (Bard)

In the case of the reworks, you already have a solid foundation of how the champ and their abilities work and interact on the rift making much easier to get appropriately "balanced". However, if you only saw Graves when he hit live then you missed the whole WAY TOOO OP phase he had on the PBE right after the rework that made Kalista look underpowered on release. Thankfully for the community and CertainlyT he didn't hit live in that condition.

KeevalroyDec 2, 20152 votes

When you do something different from everything else you can't be sure how it will turn out.

A hop on every single auto attack, percent damage on a scout ability for no reason, infinitely stacking damage with a tacked on slow, and an ult that can't be declined which allows Kalista to displace an ally against their will which gives them the ability to re-engage with a knockup because lets be honest, Yasuo needed even more synergy with champions.

We didn't know how toxic she would turn out? Nah, who could have seen this coming?

Meep ManDec 2, 20152 votes

Graves rework is basically half a new design.

KeevalroyDec 2, 20153 votes

Considering how Cait turned out, as long as nothing resembling Kalista happens again, fine.

Packun FlowerDec 1, 20155 votes

Rumor has it the balance team actually had to sit down and talk with him and tell him to tone down his idea's because almost all the time his champs are broken pieces of cancerous shit that have some bull shit double/triple/quadruple passive or gimmk and due 600 million true damage.

GigglesODec 1, 20155 votes

{quoted}

..... CertainlyT finally did it... he finally designed something and aside from the hot-fix nerfs he got, he's fine.

He's not incredibly hair pullingly frustrating to play against, he's not impossible for Riot to balance without gutting him, and yet he still feels unique. I mean I know he only changed his passive and Q but still, considering how every other champ he's touched has ended up, this is potentially a fantastic step in the right direction for his designs.

All I want to say is close, but no cigar bwah ha hah ha

BijornDec 1, 20154 votes

The only thing that bothers me about Graves is how similar he is to Lucian now in the basic sense

Q: Linear Skill shot W: roughly same hitbox size abilities (circle vs star, but I believe the star "fits" into the graves circle giving it the same width) E: Dash Ult: Long range skillshot.

Still, he feels completely different and I am very happy with it. Now he just needs to Fix Mord.

LittleBlastDec 1, 20155 votes

They are nothing alike...

TeCoolMageDec 1, 20153 votes

Still, he feels completely different and I am very happy with it.

Kappa

Hyrum GraffDec 1, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The only thing that bothers me about Graves is how similar he is to Lucian now in the basic sense

Q: Linear Skill shot W: roughly same hitbox size abilities (circle vs star, but I believe the star "fits" into the graves circle giving it the same width) E: Dash Ult: Long range skillshot.

Still, he feels completely different and I am very happy with it. Now he just needs to Fix Mord.

Still significantly more different than they were before the rework.

ZedexDec 1, 20153 votes

I'll give it a couple months. He'll rise to popularity again, and the pitchforks will be out in full number for CertainlyT's head yet again.

The boards are just a massive demograph of CertainlyT haters and tank circle jerkers.

SettDownShutUpDec 1, 20153 votes

My god, it's as if... human beings LEARN or something.

In all seriousness, he's a developer like anyone else at riot. He's going to have good ideas, bad ideas, and everything in between.

Yeah I was on the CertainlyT hate-train with Mordekaiser, but I still respect his work and desire to push what is technically possible with champs. Darius and Thresh are still some of my favorite champs, and we're better for CertainlyT making em.

... Except mordekaiser.

... Especially Mordekaiser.

V The Support VDec 2, 20151 votes

[deleted]

SettDownShutUpDec 2, 20151 votes

YOU

HAVE

IDEA.

JMoormannDec 1, 20153 votes

I think that, despite the problems that some of his designs have caused, in the long term it will be better for the game to have those champs. Why? Once there will be a moment where League has like 200 champs. And I can guarantee you that there will not be a single one who is too similar to Yasuo, Kalista or his other champs. Unlike some other champs, like Ziggs/Xerath/Lux who fill exactly the same spot and feel way too similar, all of CT's champs are vastly distinct from every other champ in the game.

Even Morde, who had a damn lot of trouble, has definitely changed the League landscape: for the past 5 years bot lane always had an ADC, which would always be a long ranged squishy who AAs you to death. Morde is the first champ ever that really changed that.

Yes, some of his champs may be overloaded, but as long as they can be balanced, I don't care. I know I am the only one in the world, but I (somewhat) like playing against Yasuo as a Ziggs. Every other matchup means I just press Q over and over again to waveclear and bully my opponent. Against Yas, I have to play differently. And despite the fact that I might get crushed, afterwards I still have a feeling that I just played an interactive, strategical game, instead of doing the same thing as always.

Indominus BladeDec 2, 20153 votes

Yasuo and Thresh were his best creations, amazing champions, fun to play and fun to play against.

KeevalroyDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Indominus Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5EXIij0A,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-12-02T15:40:33.486+0000)

and were his best creations, amazing champions, fun to play and fun to play against.

(Pukes)

KorilloDec 1, 20152 votes

I want old Graves back :(

[zombie-nunu-tears]

Solidair3Dec 2, 20152 votes

I think CertainlyT is just ambitious. He has pushed champion design further than any other designer. He obviously overdoes it sometimes, but I think it is important that boundaries be pushed so we can learn what works and what doesn't.