The reason this game can't be balanced

the weeaboo··67 votes·4,410 views

**Make 'em good early game: ** "Their laning phase is oppressive" **Make 'em good late game: ** "It takes too long for them to come online" **Make 'em good all game: ** "This champ is never not good"

**Give them mobility: ** "Too slippery" **Don't give them mobility: ** "This champ gets cucked by mobility"

**Give them a high skillcap: ** "This champ is too good in the right hands" **Give them a low skillcap: ** "This champ takes no skill to do well with" **Give them a low skillfloor: ** "This champ takes no skill to do well with" **Give them a high skillfloor: ** "This champ is too hard"

**Give them CC: ** "This champ has too much CC" **Don't give them CC: ** "This champ has zero CC"

The list goes on and on.

85 Comments

Tobias Brackner41 votes

Sounds like what you are getting at is that the game is impossible to balance because people will always find something to complain about.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

Particularly that Riot actively listens to the things that people complain about, encouraging them to actively complain about what beat them last game.

Tobias Brackner12 votes

Nah, them actively listening is good. They are also pretty good and separating the whiny babies from actual advice.

JaxMoonStealer3 votes

Man, who gets these Boards. "Riot never listens to us!" "Riot listens too much, they're encouraging us to whine."

Anidan2 votes

To be fair, I tend to find that the people saying Riot never listens and the people that say Riot listens too much are most definitely not the same people, and it varies more by department. Art team tends to listen to criticism decently well, though it was pointed out by someone when I mentioned it that the art team is generally pretty silent even when criticism is noted so it can be hard to tell if they received it; on the other hand, the balance team is routinely accused of not listening to player warnings (S2 mobility creep that said mobility either become the norm or have to be toned down--it became the norm; Sejuani nerfs during Cinderhulk meta even though she wasn't the only abuser; several rework concerns like Skarner, and the Cass mini-rework in which people warned that Stashu's first passive idea couldn't be balanced, and so on).

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Jesus christ that's some brutal shit right there.

the weeaboo2 votes

Yes, you are correct

YambrinZ23 votes

The game is always balanced. Ever notice these little patch things they do every other week?

AmazoX6 votes

Best comment in League's history.

Cunning Enigmah1 votes

{quoted}

The game is always balanced. Ever notice these little patch things they do every other week?

you mean when they gave mundo %100 hp regen to his ult?

ZT Xperimentor15 votes

Make them too normal: "This champ is too dull" Make them to exotic: "This champ will become a meme"

Project omen4 votes

Yasuo

Sir Fuzzi8 votes

It's the item system that breaks League's balance. Plain and simple.

Big Lincoln9 votes

i agree

hard to do anything reasonable when everything is just stat sticks

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

I mean, it's only ever a matter of time before Boards erupts into salty rage over the next off-meta build, like tank assassins or stupid crap like that.

Voluug131 votes

I thiink that it will be very hard to make something similar in cancer levels to tankassassins because no other champion intended weakness can be cancelled out, while not losing much of their intended power (because some lol assassins are broken on a fundamental level).

Tanky adcs and tankassassin were a problem because Riot gave them the tools to build some items that cancelled out their weaknesses, like anti burst on adcs and tankiness (+ strong bases) on assassins.

You cant solve inmobility with items, for example.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Lich/Luden's is not an uncommon item loadout and will afford most characters as much movespeed as they'd have with boots. There's also the Protobelt, and in case of emergency peel, item 3030 ... there's also Mercurial Scimitar for AD, which does give a small movespeed stim. There's also the matter of 'who can do what with Black Cleaver.' Now, you won't get a lot of hard mobility outside of Protobelt, but even still... they're quickly letting anything be itemized.

More importantly yes, anything that isn't meant to build tank that can is pretty flawed. There's just so many items compensating for so many things (Dead Man's) that there's a lot of unfortunate overlap.

Voluug131 votes

A 5-8% movespeed wont solve mobility problems (in fact, extra movespeed is better with pre-existing mobility), and neither really does protobelt when, unlike durability or anti-burst, its effect its attached to a very inefficient item with crap stats and a relatively high price.

Soft CC and small buffspeed increases arent mobility, and much less against mobile champions.

AmazoX2 votes

Agreed, Items have been messing up the game so much.

Anidan1 votes

Even when DotA2 adds new items they don't just add in simplistic stat sticks... c'mon Riot, stat sticks are not the result of--what was it called when Riot decried DotA's design again? Oh yeah, "8 years of learning" material.

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

It's just that every time they release a new item, it's in response to like, a single new problem. And then, two or three iterations later we discover-- oh god, we added items without reviewing the hundred others. Now we have a balance issue. Then they gut something, and they go around again. And each time, they make everything a little more convoluted and hard to understand.

I still don't have an answer-- does Adaptive Helm function for multiple instances (say, for instance, Teemo shroom and Cass poison) at the same time, or only one at a time? Will it function on multiple instances from one champion? Or just the last effect taken?

Rıots Bad Client7 votes

'Wow, Why can't my rock ever beat paper. Paper is so broken...'

Edres5 votes

"Better nerf paper, buff rock, and give scissors a VGU"

Danjeng5 votes

Please Revert Scissors

Hi. My name is Jengdan and I have been a Scissors main since Season 2. With the update, a lot of Scissor's power has been taken away from beating paper, and redistributed on not being beat as badly by rock. Scissor's identity is no longer unique. Paper already beat rock, and not being beat by rock takes away from Scissor's identity. Scissors shouldn't be nerfed because how well it does in competitive. Nobody asked for this. This patch, Scissor only has a 32% win rate in solo queue. Meanwhile, Rock has a 100% win rate against Scissors.

Cowseed3 votes

Ugh... gut scissors.

Who came up with the bright idea of having a metal device that can cut through thin materials. Scissors has not one, but 2 blades. I don't even see the point of picking knife at this point because scissors is basically 2 KNIVES!!! Scissors also has a 80 pick rate when cutting paper and a 33% winrate in rock-paper-scissors.

Scissors is also so damn overloaded. It has two sharp edges, a handle, can cut grass, paper, CARD BOARD and cloth. Tell me that's not OP.

Bladeglory1 votes

Scissors has to be fed to beat Cardboard and Cloth in late game. Furthermore, no matter how fed they are, just group and buy properly. Learn to play, stop feeding the enemy carries, and you'll start winning more match-ups. Git gud scrub.

Zerenza6 votes

Well i mean...that goes back to League's core design, it was based off of DOTA, dota is a game where counter's are very important, not just very but almost to the point of extremes. In DOTA if you get counterpicked it doesn't mean you lose but if it counter's you it does it hard. Unlike in DOTA though in league you have Masteries, Runes and Summoner Spells, these helps to lessen your champions weakness or heighten their strengths. In league this works because each champion, well most there are definitely exceptions, is designed with strict weaknesses in mind that other player's can exploit with counterpicks but counterpicks are kept in balance by allowing the opposing player to select things that help them alleviate those. Builds are also a part of this, even if they do need to work on all these aspects League is much more balanced that other games of it's kind and many other competitive games as a whole.

For example, i'v been playing a lot of syndra lately, hyper mobile assassins usually counter an immobile mage like syndra, but if i take Exhaust and build correctly i have a higher chance of winning, not by very much but it puts it back over 50% rather than being 46-49%. Another thing is that in terms of leagues balance, people complain constantly about how unbalanced it is but the usual difference in winrates is within a 10% threshold, this means that outlier's that have say a 58% winrate are exceptions and those are target's for nerfs, champions that have 45% winrate are also targeted for buffs more often except in cases where the champion is getting an update or riot admits to their mistake when designing said champion so they want to keep them subpar(Yorick, Aatrox, ect). This also means that if we averaged up the overall winrates of every champion, that it would be around 50%, meaning the game is actually mostly balanced with about 15-20 or so severe outlier's at the top and at the bottom. Also, if we were to average up the overall winrates of every class, and compare it to the overall winrate for all champions in total, if it was bellow the overall average then that would mean the class is weak, if it were higher than average that would mean the class was too strong.

Now yes, some champions have very high play rates and that does affect their winrates because a champion shouldn't have a 30% playright and above 50% winrate, most champions that do have high play rates like 10% are either just under or just over 50%, such as Ezreal at a 21% play rate but a 45% winrate. On the other hand Ahri has a 53% winrate and a 21.6% playrate, which is waaay out of line. Lucian's is also absurd at 39% playrate and a 50.5% winrate, it might not sound like much but that means that 40% of player's platinum and above are winning games more than 50% of the time with lucian.

The first competitve game i played was Yugioh, Yugioh is not balanced at all, sometimes a certain deck will have a win chance of 90% against anything that doesn't have the same absurd winchance, that's called Teir 1. If a champion ever became that strong, then yes this game is unbalanced but at the moment, hovering around 49-51% overall winrate is pretty fucking impressive and means that with most champions in the game you have a very good chance of winning your game and can buff it up by your own player skill.

the weeaboo1 votes

Can I get a TL;DR

Almighty5 votes

You just described 90% of the threads made in the "Gameplay" section of the Boards.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Almighty.

Khristophoros4 votes

how to have fun at games: stop caring about balance. play the top tier.

50000000000000002 votes

Eww no thanks A lot of us care about our champions

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

Eww no thanks A lot of us care about our champions

I honestly cannot understand this mindset. When I lose it's frustrating. It's not fun. When I play a champion that sucks and I can't even win my lane I hate playing. It's like why would you pick an ineffective strategy in anything in life including games? I mean sure sometimes I play champions I'm not good at or I try strategies that are totally off the wall but it's for learning. If it sucks I don't say "HEY RIOT MAKE THIS SHITTY THING GOOD" I just accept that it's a bad strategy and move on.

Part of this is I played this game for so long that I got used to my "main" being nerfed or changed in such a way that it doesn't work for me anymore. In beta I mained Trist and then they remade her and despite all my complaints they took too long to fix her so I just kinda changed to whatever worked for me next. I played AP Ezreal when he had a heal, and then when they removed the heal I found that I didn't really enjoy AD Ezreal (I mean yeah he was still really OP but I just didn't feel it anymore) so I moved on to Kassadin. Eventually they totally ruined Kassadin so I moved on to Vel'Koz.

Just play whatever works for you. Never. Get. Attached.

50000000000000001 votes

For me, I like playing supportive roles. This means not just playing supports, but playing tanks top/jungle instead of fighter, utility mages instead of assassins mid, and utility marksmen instead of likes of Lucian and such. I don't care so much about winning, as much as picking based on synergies and counters. If I played well, and carried out the plan I made in champ select, I'm fine with that.

But when those strategies become shitty because of meta (Brand/Zyra/Malzahar support, assassin meta, etc.), that means pretty much all champions from a given role become useless. I could learn those meta picks and win more, sure, but I wouldn't have fun winning with them. I'm sure most people would disagree with me here, but going 20/1/5 as Zed or whatever is not fun for me. I'd rather go 0/2/35 as Janna, because that's fun for me. But I'm also not gonna have fun picking my favorite champions for the role if the playstyle I enjoy is shitty. I usually just switch position so my playstyle is at least somewhat effective.

This is technically separate from your argument (I'm not really getting attached to any one champion), but I can understand why people can have fun OTPing. And it seems only fair to want your favorite pick to be viable all the time.

P.S. the one thing I was attached to was the 5 man item 3512 item 3060 comp, but Zz'Rot lost its splitpush/freeze power. That was legitimately cancerous, though, and I understand why Riot removed it. That was really fun (for me) though.

Khristophoros1 votes

Yeah sometimes the meta is legitimately fucked up and needs to be fixed.

TimX24968B1 votes

That sounds like a meta slave right there.

not to mention, people have different ideas of fun. sometimes its just wanting to win (sounds like you), sometimes its just wanting to do some exciting stuff, sometimes its wanting to make people laugh, maybe even yourself.

I know if I wanted to just win I would be playing with an entirely different mindset, but having that mindset does not constitute fun for everyone. (honestly, if winning was most important to me, the difficulty level would be the first thing addressed before my own ability to perform at that level)

The last thing I play this game for, or any game for, is the strategy factor. Hate it, and how it all boils down to a couple simple strategies that manage to outshine everything (being super defensive and doing nothing but catching your opponent out, for example.) If I was playing just to win, I would be playing another game.

But hey, that's why everyone has different opinions.

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

That sounds like a meta slave right there.

not to mention, people have different ideas of fun. sometimes its just wanting to win (sounds like you), sometimes its just wanting to do some exciting stuff, sometimes its wanting to make people laugh, maybe even yourself.

I know if I wanted to just win I would be playing with an entirely different mindset, but having that mindset does not constitute fun for everyone. (honestly, if winning was most important to me, the difficulty level would be the first thing addressed before my own ability to perform at that level)

The last thing I play this game for, or any game for, is the strategy factor. Hate it, and how it all boils down to a couple simple strategies that manage to outshine everything (being super defensive and doing nothing but catching your opponent out, for example.) If I was playing just to win, I would be playing another game.

But hey, that's why everyone has different opinions.

Depends on my mood. Like I said sometimes I try off the wall things. But I have some champions and strategies with those champions that are established in my mind as effective so I go to them whenever I want to win.

I would not call myself a meta slave. I main Vel'Koz and probably will until they nerf him or something.

When I said pick top tier I was oversimplifying. For most people the top tier will probably be the best bet but you should try everything and see what fits you.

My point was don't hold your breath for Riot to buff something that currently isn't effective for you, or nerf something that gives you problems. You can enjoy the game in the moment by adapting to whatever the current meta is, whether that is by following the meta or finding something else that just works for you in the meta.

Danjeng1 votes

Once attached, there's no going back. Stuck with Ryze for 5 seasons.

Rework. Big buffs. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf. Massive Nerf. Buff. Nerfs. Rework. Buff. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf.

To this day I'm still waiting. Hoping that he'll get better one day. Even if my winrate drops to 40% and I demote into silver, I'll keep playing him. BTW I'm not making this up, this is legitimately Ryze's balance changes from Season 5, 6, and 7. Look it up.

I'm not sure but maybe there's a pattern going on here.

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

Once attached, there's no going back. Stuck with Ryze for 5 seasons.

Rework. Big buffs. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf. Massive Nerf. Buff. Nerfs. Rework. Buff. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf.

To this day I'm still waiting. Hoping that he'll get better one day. Even if my winrate drops to 40% and I demote into silver, I'll keep playing him. BTW I'm not making this up, this is legitimately Ryze's balance changes from Season 5, 6, and 7. Look it up.

I'm not sure but maybe there's a pattern going on here.

My problem with this is: Hoping for buffs means you desire to win, otherwise you wouldn't hope for buffs. However, The stubbornness of sticking with him for all these years contradicts that desire to win.

I still like all my previous champs but they don't work for me anymore.

And also, I often do well with champions that others don't think are good. For example, my secondary was Ashe in season 3. If I couldn't play Kassadin it was Ashe. I had the same winrate on both in plat, something like 75%, despite the fact that Kass was considered overpowered and Ashe was considered underpowered. After Ashe's remake I just can't really do well with her consistently anymore even though she's considered better than her pre-rework by most players. So my point with this example is that some players are going to make the champion work even if it's not meta or you in particular can't make it work. So instead of asking for buffs, be humble and realize you're just playing the champion wrong. Some weirdo out there has a 70-80% winrate with the champion you think needs buffs.

Danjeng1 votes

Ashe was never really considered trash. Nobody has a 70% win rate on Ryze post-nerfs. Maybe 60% is pushing it. Most top Ryze players get just above 50%. Even so, the win rate is being inflated by pre-nerf games.

I don't have a desire to win. I have a desire to win with Ryze. I do fine, but I think that Ryze could use a buff more than a nerf FROM A BALANCE PERSPECTIVE. I have, on multiple occasions, insisted that Ryze be nerfed, though never to the extent that he was.

Frightning1 votes

Ironically enough, I find this odd because, I usually feel like I can win lane if I play it well in almost any matchup. It's one thing that's been getting better over time with this game (been playing since season 1). I also have played a lot of off meta stuff too, and mostly been having successes with it.

FioraWillCarry3 votes

I think the best way to balance a game is ironically not to balance it anymore.

Starcraft: Brood War was considered one of the most balanced RTS ever made. It was perceived that way because people played it in a single state for so long that the elite players figured out how to overcome the most obvious imbalances and these counters became standard play. In fact, I remember every season of competitive, each of the 3 races kept rotating on which of them was the strongest, and this happened purely in meta. No balance changes whatsoever. For over a decade people still kept discovering new things in an otherwise stagnant game. Perhaps League needs the same stagnation.

Danjeng1 votes

One of League's charms is that it's always updating. Always new content and balance shifts in champions (with some exceptions, you know who I'm talking about).

Brood War's last patch came out in 2009. It's mainly popular in South Korea, where the fans sustain its longevity. I remember when Bisu won against sAviOr 3-0 PvZ. At the time, the matchup heavily favored Zerg, but he won because of his strategy and skill.

However, unlike Starcraft, League has 130+ champions! That's a lot, considering each one has about 5 abilities which can interact with the other champion's abilities, producing an exponentially increasing amount of champion synergies with each release. There's also items and buffs around the map and so forth. Very hard to balance all that.

You do have a point. The balancing team sometimes makes some very questionable choices. The meta revolves around supposedly OP picks, until said OP picks are nerfed. Meanwhile, weak, outdated champions are given changes that may or may not make them overwhelmingly powerful. And so the cycle of nerfs and buffs continues. We will laugh, they (boards) will cry.

Balancing team should let players figure out how to deal with a champion. They could go for some more conservative tweaks, instead of constantly nerfing and nerfing and nerfing and nerfing and nerfing a champion. After some seasons, that champion is updated, buffed, but boards complains, dominates LCS so the champion is nerfed and nerfed and nerf...

_Guess my main without using external sources. What champion have I just described? _

Anidan1 votes

I think it largely depends on the game. I'm not necessarily sure League could be left in isolation and still be called 'balanced,' because a definite tier list could easily appear by exploiting whatever systems they left it alone with. The 'meta' of League could definitely change over time, but it's doubtful that it would be as dramatic because it's a bit less complex overall than what you could theorycraft for an RTS. League strikes me as the game that if left alone it would become more akin to Smash Melee: there is a definitive best pick for given roles and strategies, but by no means are you required to pick the best, as long as you're fine with the consequences of picking something that's lesser for the strategy you plan to use. There's not enough balancing tools in League's basket to leave it alone with the players and expect it to do fine in terms of balance, I feel.

thedude1372 votes

I'm just gonna leave this here...

Kled is the most balanced champion in League of Legends

Persecute me heathons

Limrick2 votes

Ever heard of perfect imbalance? You need the game to be slightly unbalanced or it loses all fun. Imagine a game where every character does the exact same thing, it's balanced, but boring as hell.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Skill floor low means its harder to do well with went bad with champion. Skill floor is like a multi floored building say 20 floors. You want to be as close to the sky as possible. Skill floor is your starting point as skill celing is the ending point skill with a champion is a room that spans multiple floors. Master Yi is easy to start off with so he has high skill floor starting at 7 a good ways close to the sky but his skill celing is 13 aways from the top and only 7 floors inbetween short to medium time to mastery. Orianna has a skill floor of 5 its easy to mess up when you dont know anything, but a good Orianna can have a skill celing of 16. In the early phases of knowledge a Master Yi will show better results but where Master Yi caps Orianna can pass a Master Yi in Skill it takes to play the champion at top effectiveness. The Orianna will usually take longer as the room to grow is 16 floors rater than 7 . Though you dont have to enter on a champions skill floor that is an estimate of the worst the champion can do.

TheSingularity5 votes

Skill floor low means its harder to do well with went bad with champion.

revise the post and get back to me

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

you can. however Riot has said themselves that they like to tinker with balance to create I guess. artificial metas and playstyles. which I dont personally like as it is forced. its hard to perfecrly balance. but you can get close. league isn't even trying to be close. you have a champion with 45% winrate and one with 55% winrate for years

TemmShoppe1 votes

Well, to be fair, the game was never balanced. Then again, A LOT of games such as these never are.

But the thing about it is, it's fun. And that's 1 reason of why we play it.

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