Too much CDR!

Hemulen Magi··14 votes·2,187 views

There is far too much CDR itemization in the game... Let's remove CDR from: item 3156 item 3194 item 3147 item 3812item 3083 We can buff them in other ways if/as needed.

Let's rework item 3508 to always give only 10% CDR along with some new non-CDR-related replacement passive.

If marksmen and assassins want CDR, they can go out of their way and make significant sacrifices to build it or bring CDR runes. They can still situationally get CDR from items like: item 3158 item 3142 item 3078item 3508

Also, item 3071 should only give 10% CDR, but cleaves should stack up to 10 x 3% (from 6 x 4%) for a total maximum of 30% armor reduction. Melee auto-attacks should provide 2 cleave stacks each. This will further discourage marksmen from building BC to replace lost CDR itemization. Marksmen/assassins will still benefit from their juggernaut/fighter allies shredding more enemy armor with BC.

Also, maybe lower item 3110 to 10% CDR and buff its aura to 20% attack speed reduction. It's a cool supportive tank item, but it seems to have become more and more rarely built as CDR has become more prevalent. I think it's too hard to fit 20% CDR on a single item slot into a tank build nowadays. Also, the aura size should be more visible for allies and enemies (perhaps a faint line of particles resembling the aurora borealis or snow flurries on the edge).

Supports, supportive/true tanks, and maybe mages (at full build) should be the only classes reliably capping 40% CDR every game. AP assassins should really have better access to CDR than AD assassins if they choose to build it (item 3100 item 3152 item 3157) since they can't fall back on autoattacks to finish a fight. Also, AP sacrifices more to bring CDR glyphs because glyphs are AP's primary rune type.

28 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMER7 votes

CDR is such a free stat in this game now it's ridiculous, as a support It's come to the point where I'm over capping on CDR and I don't even care if I do.

Not sure why Riot decided they'll start to stuff CDR into almost every item.

MagicFlyingLlama2 votes

The game has gotten faster-paced over time, and this was apparently easier or less kludgey than simply giving everyone a free passive 20% CDR.

FiddlesOnTheRoof5 votes

I agree. CDR runes are virtually pointless because the stat is on every item now.

Kloqdq4 votes

Honestly I would like to see a lot of CDR removed from items. It is just trying to make the game faster for the sake of making the game faster.

underscores2224 votes

First off, I agree that cdr is a bit too easy to pick up. However, I also feel like removing it from too many items leaves certain classes of champs without the ability to even attempt to build for cdr if they want to.

Most notably, tanks and ADCs/AD bruisers struggled with being able to get more than 10 or 20% cdr, as the stat simply didn't exist on that many tank or AD items. I think Riot went a bit overboard by adding CDR to everything, but I also think they wanted to allow more champs to get cdr easier - and allow for different paths to do so. That being said, it feels like you can get a significant amount of cooldown just by building what you want to anyway, which doesn't feel like a good solution.

Hemulen Magi3 votes

I think we agree on most things, but I don't think every class should have equal access to CDR. I strongly feel if marksmen or AD assassins want to hit 40% CDR, they should need to either bring scaling CDR runes or seriously shape their build around it, taking item 3158item 3078item 3142 for example. Likewise, AD juggernauts who really want CDR should need to build something like item 3158 item 3065 item 3071 item 3800 (or bring some mix of CDR runes).

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate those classes. I used to main Yorick, who is an AD juggernaut. I don't necessarily want them to be weaker by limiting their CDR itemization. I think the items losing CDR should be given moderate compensation buffs in most cases, which would leave the classes using them balanced around the assumption that they'll not have capped CDR or will be making significant sacrifices by limiting their build in order to obtain CDR.

The point I think we agree on is that we should need to situationally and consciously decide to focus on CDR if we want to get it. I think we disagree on whether that should be equally true for every class and champion. While every class can benefit from CDR if it's freely available without sacrifice, that takes away planning and cheapens the stat. Similarly, defensive stats like health and armor are also useful on every class of champions, but they should and are more easily itemized on specific classes which those as their primary stats, ie., tanks and juggernauts who need defenses to fulfill their front-line role.

Classes which rely on their utility or CC in order to bring value feel like the most fitting CDR users because they are generally of very limited use while their abilities are on cooldown. Classes like marksmen and skirmishers with autoattack buffs feel like the least fitting users of CDR because they can still fight while their abilities are on cooldown, so they never feel truly powerless or ability reliant. Assassins also don't seem to fit well with CDR because they need significant cooldowns or else they become oppressive, since they should be punishable if they fail an assassination attempt, or at a minimum they should need to wait a decent window before making another attempt. AD assassins should have their CDR more limited than AP assassins on account of all AD assassins having strong autoattacks as a fall-back plan to finish off a target while abilities are on cooldown.

In my mind, there are three primary CDR classes which should have an easier time accessing CDR: Utility supports > Supportive/true tanks > Mages.

I see Utility supports as the prime user of CDR, and they fittingly have the easiest time building the stat thanks to items like: item 3069 item 3107 item 3504 item 3174 item 3222

Utility/CC tanks can also conveniently pick up CDR items, which is fitting: item 2303 item 3025 item 3110 item 3065 item 3109 item 3001 item 3800 But if anything, it's getting frustrating to avoid over-capping 40% CDR as a tank, which is why I suggest removing CDR on item 3083 item 3194 and lowering CDR on item 3110 in exchange for other buffs.

Mages actually have fairly limited CDR itemization, but I feel it's okay since they are still valued targets when their abilities are down. They still do have 3 solid items they can build for 40% CDR: item 3165 item 3157 item 3102

Like I've said before, other classes should still be able to get CDR, but it should be by meaningfully sacrificing other options, like by giving up magic resistance glyphs or by choosing item 3158 or pouring gold into item 3078 for examples. One particular item that I currently dislike is item 3508 because it literally seems like an item that says "hey, marksmen, want a ton of CDR tacked onto your regular crit build?" It doesn't necessarily seem overpowered, just a poor idea for an item. I think it should keep 10% CDR and get a different passive.

Sdars4 votes

Mobility creep

CC creep

Damage creep

CDR creep

Riot is so obsessed with turning this game into dota they don't realize when it's just too much, and we've been past that point a long time ago...

TheDonar3 votes

Totally agree. The stat is almost meaningless. The only other way to go is to raise the cap (probably bad idea).

If I end a game without 40% CDR it's because it was over in 5 minutes...even then I'll get to 30%

Yaskamasandwich3 votes

The crazy amount of CDR is going to stay sadly. Proof of that more damage for having over 40% CDR. Now building more CDR is going to increase the damage even more, need more damage creep yayyy.

G2 Hamza Har 3 votes

basically building items such as item 3110 becomes very inneficient since most the core items for tanks already give a lot of cdr such as item 3800 item 3001 item 3194 item 3109 item 3083 item 3065 ... and it's even worse for ad junglers that already get 30% by building only item 1412 and item 3071 leaving them with only one item to reach the cdr cap

Hemulen Magi1 votes

Yep, by reducing Frozen Heart's CDR to 10% in exchange for other stats, it will open up a slot for another item containing CDR without necessarily overcapping.

Sohleks2 votes

In b4 item 3508 item 3071 item 3046 with the CD overflow mastery is Lucian's next build

AD champs only2 votes

{quoted}

In b4 item 3508 item 3071 item 3046 with the CD overflow mastery is Lucian's next build

I build that shit on Tryndamere

AirKingNeo2 votes

item 3071 Because gutting bruisers is a good idea? The worst class needs a huge nerf?

item 3508 How about 20% CDR flat and nerf the AD. That sounds a bit more balanced.

That change to Frozen Heart sounds horrendous. Attack speed slows are already unhealthy in the game. You could buff it in other ways.

Hemulen Magi3 votes

{quoted}

item 3071 Because gutting bruisers is a good idea? The worst class needs a huge nerf?

Losing 10% CDR in exchange for buffing its cleave passive for melee users. Melee autoattacks would shred 6% armor rather than 4% and up to 30% total instead of 24% total. This would make bruisers stronger against tanks. It's not a nerf, but even if it was, it wouldn't gut bruisers.

AirKingNeo1 votes

10% CDR, especially early game, is worth way more than 6% armor pen.

Board's idiot balance strikes again.

Hemulen Magi1 votes

{quoted}

10% CDR, especially early game, is worth way more than 6% armor pen.

Board's idiot balance strikes again.

6% armor shred is team-shared utility, meaning it is more valuable outside of laning. In any case, even if BC became slightly weaker (and I don't think it would, except maybe as a rush item), that wouldn't "gut" bruisers as you claimed. You are clearly exaggerating and have taken up a needlessly belligerent stance. Bruisers don't need to rush BC as their first item, especially if their opponent isn't stacking armor. And you don't need to resort to personal attacks, calling people idiots on the boards.

You need to keep in mind that there are other CDR options for bruisers as well. You can take 10% CDR runes, item 3078, item 3065, and that's capped 40% CDR right there. Bruisers shouldn't even necessarily have an easy time capping CDR. They are not a primarily utility class. They can be given strengths in other areas to compensate for being balanced around the assumption that they won't have 40% CDR or that they will be sacrificing parts of their desired build to specifically go for CDR.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

That's hitting CDR way too much.

It would be so bad to get 40% as Riven, even if we could still use 10% CDR runes instead of the Overflow mastery. Boots of Lucidity would be necessary, which is fucking terrible since you basically NEED Tabi's against AD bruisers.

When you think about it, having CDR on Maw is a great idea. Bruisers use CDR a lot for more spammable abilities for higher DPS. It keeps them from having too much burst. If it was flat out stat buffed, bruisers would do too much burst, not enough DPS, and be too tanky.

Death's Dance is also a great item for CDR, the lifesteal and bleed make it great for extended fights. Also, CDR makes it not as great on ADC's, if the lifesteal or AD was buffed it would be waaaay more of a problem for ADC's. Right now it's a great DPS/tankkiller.

Agreed with Duskblade, though.

I have no idea why you would remove CDR from the two tank items and nerf Frozen Heart when you also say True tanks are the only ones who should be getting full CDR... those items are the true tank items, after all, with no offensive abilities like DMP or Sunfires. True tanks have it bad enough, why the fuck would you hurt their CDR itemization?

Hemulen Magi3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=59g2WA9z,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-08-11T22:02:17.074+0000)

It would be so bad to get 40% as Riven, even if we could still use 10% CDR runes instead of the Overflow mastery. Boots of Lucidity would be necessary, which is fucking terrible since you basically NEED Tabi's against AD bruisers.

Let's be honest, man, only Riven mains want Riven to have an easy time getting 40% CDR every game... She could still situationally pick up a lot of CDR, but she'd need to make sacrifices like giving up mr glyphs for scaling CDR or giving up Ninja Tabis for Boots of Lucidity depending on whether she thinks she'll need armor or MR more.

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=59g2WA9z,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-08-11T22:02:17.074+0000)

I have no idea why you would remove CDR from the two tank items and nerf Frozen Heart when you also say True tanks are the only ones who should be getting full CDR... those items are the true tank items, after all, with no offensive abilities like DMP or Sunfires. True tanks have it bad enough, why the fuck would you hurt their CDR itemization?

I personally think Utility/CC tanks have an easy time capping CDR: item 2303 item 3025 item 3110 item 3065 item 3109 item 3001 item 3800 If anything, it's getting frustrating for me to avoid over-capping 40% CDR as a tank, which is why I suggest removing CDR on item 3083 item 3194 and lowering CDR on item 3110 in exchange for other buffs. Of course, scaling CDR glyphs or even scaling CDR quints are an option as a tank too if you really want to reliably cap 40% CDR without thinking about your build. It's just that you sacrifice something else in exchange, which is honestly fair.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=59g2WA9z,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-08-11T23:15:05.010+0000)

Let's be honest, man, only Riven mains want Riven to have an easy time getting 40% CDR every game... She could still situationally pick up a lot of CDR, but she'd need to make sacrifices like giving up mr glyphs for scaling CDR or giving up Ninja Tabis for Boots of Lucidity depending on whether she thinks she'll need armor or MR more.

Of course we want Riven to have an easy time getting 40% CDR, we're the ones who understand best why she needs it so much.

We already sacrifice MR glyphs for flat CDR almost 100% of the time, and that option is gonna go away with reworked runes. No Tabi's means basically all our skirmisher competition will destroy us. Fiora and Yasuo as well as basically every AD bruiser or juggernaut. Our Yasuo matchup was already hurt with Dshield no longer blocking damage with each hit. This is a heavy nerf, which Riven has done NOTHING to deserve.

I personally think Utility/CC tanks have an easy time capping CDR: item 2303 item 3025 item 3110 item 3065 item 3109 item 3001 item 3800

Think again. You need 3-4 of those items, although I'll admit Righteous Glory change did help. But think about top laner tanks. Frozen Heart is one of the worst rush items for a tank, and only certain tanks can use Iceborn (which isn't even a full tank item, that's got damage on it). Keep in mind that many other top's are AD, and if you plan to survive early game at all, you're not allowed CDR until your 3rd or 4th item.

If anything, it's getting frustrating for me to avoid over-capping 40% CDR as a tank, which is why I suggest removing CDR on item 3083 item 3194 and lowering CDR on item 3110 in exchange for other buffs. Of course, scaling CDR glyphs or even scaling CDR quints are an option as a tank too if you really want to reliably cap 40% CDR without thinking about your build. It's just that you sacrifice something else in exchange, which is honestly fair.

Erh, do people even build Warmogs? Was Sunfire gutted that hard?

Hemulen Magi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=59g2WA9z,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-12T00:48:38.034+0000)

Of course we want Riven to have an easy time getting 40% CDR, we're the ones who understand best why she needs it so much.

We already sacrifice MR glyphs for flat CDR almost 100% of the time, and that option is gonna go away with reworked runes. No Tabi's means basically all our skirmisher competition will destroy us. Fiora and Yasuo as well as basically every AD bruiser or juggernaut. Our Yasuo matchup was already hurt with Dshield no longer blocking damage with each hit. This is a heavy nerf, which Riven has done NOTHING to deserve.

I don't blindly hate any champion, but you must know that Riven is considered one of the most snowbally and frustrating to play against as a bad matchup... Since it's become so convenient for Riven to reach 40% CDR once she's already snowballing, the windows to fight back against her have shrunk considerably in worst case scenarios, leaving bad matchups against her even worse. Would you consider that it might be healthier if she weren't balanced around easily capping CDR, perhaps in exchange for better options versus her hard counters? Riven is a popular champion with a devoted playerbase. Riot wouldn't leave her unviable if reducing AD fighter CDR itemization disproportionately hurt her winrates across the board. For the most part, less plentiful CDR itemization should create decision making. You could take scaling CDR runes to be less of a lane bully in exchange for a stronger lategame and still cap CDR for example. If your matchup allows you to get boots of Lucidity, then that would be another option. Building Youmoo's would be a third option. Building Warrior's Machete in her jungle off-role would also provide CDR. I don't think that Riven or other AD fighters should necessarily reliably reach 40% CDR in their standard build though. They can be balanced around getting other strengths in their standard builds. I didn't suggest specific buffs for item 3812 item 3156 but you can feel free to suggest what they would need in exchange for losing CDR.

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=59g2WA9z,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-12T00:48:38.034+0000)

Think again. You need 3-4 of those items, although I'll admit Righteous Glory change did help. But think about top laner tanks. Frozen Heart is one of the worst rush items for a tank, and only certain tanks can use Iceborn (which isn't even a full tank item, that's got damage on it). Keep in mind that many other top's are AD, and if you plan to survive early game at all, you're not allowed CDR until your 3rd or 4th item.

If we're talking about purely utility/CC tanks, then they are hardly playable without building damage in a solo lane role because they have poor dueling and waveclearing. When a true tank goes into a solo lane, they must build in a way that makes them somewhat self-sufficient, so in a solo lane environment, item 3025 is a real tank item (often combined with item 3068) even though other non-tanks, like Ezreal, will sometimes use it. Solo laning tanks are the primary users that the item is designed for, and it happens to fill a lot of the CDR cap. After laning, a top lane tank can also get CDR from supportive tank items item 3800 item 3109 if they want since they'll be filling a supportive role in teamfighting anyways. If they want to forsake CDR for pure tank stats (probably a bad idea in most cases) then they don't need to get 40% CDR in their build, but it wouldn't be too difficult if they want to build CDR. If you think about it, it's really quite difficult not to overcap CDR as a tank even in top lane. If you get item 3025item 3068 to help with laning, then you decide you want to get item 3083 item 3065 (these two items often go together) then you're already at 40% CDR, which discourages picking up item 3800 for example even though your team might need the help engaging. By putting CDR on every item, it actually limits freedom in building. We should need to plan to get capped CDR if we choose to build for it.

For item 3110, I am primarily considering bot-lane-support tanks since top-laners often prefer item 3025 for the reasons outlined above. As a bot-lane support tank, it is really very difficult to avoid overcapping CDR, considering item 2303 item 3107 is already 20% CDR, so if you don't want to overcap then you can't pick item 3110 with any other items which contain CDR even though there are so many options that a tanky support might want (item 3109 item 3800 item 3065 item 3050 item 3060 to name just a few). If item 3110 gave only 10% CDR in exchange for compensation buffs, then players could buy it and still pick a fourth item containing CDR without overcapping.

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=59g2WA9z,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-08-12T00:48:38.034+0000)

Erh, do people even build Warmogs? Was Sunfire gutted that hard?

Nope, I still pretty much never see anyone building Warmog's and that's part of the problem. The 10% CDR on it isn't always welcome in a build, especially as an item that is usually built when already near full build. I think that it should lose the generic CDR and likely have its prices increased in exchange for either more of the core stat people want to build it for (lategame fantasy of crazy health stacking, ie. tank equivalent to item 3031 item 3089) or some new actual unique strength to make it stand out.

Hemulen Magi2 votes

Ugh. Just refreshed the page and within a couple minutes, this dropped by about 10 upvotes and is now only +2 and has dropped off the front page of the boards. Just want to thank the Riven main (or whoever it was) who decided to suppress this discussion by downvoting with all of his alt accounts...

Disembark1 votes

I'm dumb hip. I heard that games are now starting players off with 80% CD-R.

It's getting out of hand.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

this board Irrecoverable

Grenadeslash1 votes

Yeah because an assassin like zed would love to build item 3508 or item 3078

Hemulen Magi2 votes

And players laning against an assassin like Zed love him having 30-40% CDR by mid-game... He can certainly build item 3142 in any case. If your Zed strategy absolutely requires him to have 40% CDR, then you could make the necessary sacrifice of taking scaling CDR runes and/or item 3158.

DrDubb1 votes

I personally find it frustrating to have so much CDR from an itemization perspective. I'm a mid main, and I wont even go into how efficient LUDENS ECHO is and how it's the Black Cleaver of mid lane... if you're a burst mage you ALWAYS build it first no matter what because it gives you EVERYTHING a mage needs unlike any other item (extra scaling burst dmg, wave clear, 20%CDR, mana item, HIGH AP) Damn, I said this wasn't about Luden's Echo ( or Black Cleaver...)

Anyways. It's DIFFICULT to not have a build that goes over 40% CDR. It's a crappy feeling every game. Absolute Focus being weaker recently, and 10% CDR in the rune stats, compounds the situation. Although I often take Absolute Focus over Transcendence, I can't see myself trading 10% CDR for 9AP... Ludens ECHO plus the 10% CDR from runes is already 30%, so pick your 10% item carefully. Zhonyas? Banshees? Hextech item? Twin Shadows? Lich Bane?Maybe you're a AP bruiser who wants Spirit Visage. I find it ridiculous an optimal build can't have more than one these item's and Luden's together. After boots, your other 3 items HAVE to be Void Staff, Rabadons, Liandries, Rylais, Morrelonomicon, or Mejais.

Maybe you're playing ARAM and want some weird itemization but often can't because it's ALWAYS over 40% CDR. Tanks have it EVEN WORSE. Pretty much CAN'T build Black Cleaver and Frozen Gauntlet together, because your MR item will put you over the cap. And I don't think you're running Transcendence as a tank, so you dont even have the chance to benefit from the extra adaptive force.

Overall... ALL the CDR feels bad.

P.S. Why are Ionian Boots even an item even more? If it wasn't for the summoner spell buff, they'd be COMPLETELY obsolete. Even the traditional support characters that would RUSH these boots don't because of excess CDR in every item. They're just better off with literally any other item. (Sorcerer boots for brand lux ect. Even tank boots are better than ionian boots for beefier supports. Swiftness/mobi boots are almost always good on supps)

Hemulen Magi1 votes

Looking back at this after all these years, since somehow this thread has been resurrected, here's how I feel I would rebalance CDR if I had the power to change it now:

20% CDR: item 3110 item 3040 item 3042

15% CDR: item 3110 item 3003 item 3004 item 3078 item 3025 item 3115

10% CDR: item 3101 item 3158 item 3071 item 3142 item 3905 item 3056 item 3102 item 3157 item 3174 item 3024 item 3050 item 3147 item 3100 item 3098 item 3092 item 3096 item 3069 item 3401 item 3161 item 3107 item 2065 item 3504 item 3800 item 3108 item 3222 item 1402 item 1412 item 3152 item 3802 item 3114 item 3285 item 3030 item 3508

5% CDR: item 3057 item 3133 item 3067 item 3813 item 3001 item 3065 item 3070 item 3163 item 3301 item 3083

0% CDR: item 3194 [Most items losing CDR would be compensated. Adaptive Helm could receive increased MR for example.]

No more Haste passive on item 3802 or items built from it.

item 3070 gives 5% CDR. Items built from Tear of the Goddess grant stats from both mana and over-capped CDR (replacing Transcendence rune).

item 3110 builds out of item 3070 + item 3024 + item 3082 and transforms into an upgraded version when Awe is fully stacked. Awe grants bonus health. The upgraded version has a stronger, ramping-up aura which can be toggled on, costing mana each second.

item 3004 builds out of item 3070 + item 3101, gaining its Shock passive (reduced to 1.5% mana on-hit) before upgrading to item 3042 (allowing the full 3% mana on-hit after upgrade). Because it would no longer build from item 1037, it would provide less AD, and the recipe change would make it somewhat more expensive. Manamune would offer a way for mana-gated AD champions to continue building CDR, while resourceless AD champions would have considerably less access to CDR than before. CDR capping doesn't need to be a super common thing for every champion class, and compensating some items with other strengths, like increased defensive stats, could help improve the game pace.

Transcendence rune is removed (now part of Awe passive) and it is replaced by a Spell Weaving or Expose Weakness rune (just give it a 'Sorcery' sounding name, like Blighting Curse, and give it synergy with DOT and AOE).

Also if Magic Resistance is increased on many items to compensate for reduced CDR on them, there will be room for a new Sorcery keystone tailored to DPS APCs. Deathfire Touch can make a return as a rune that reduces immediate ability damage dealt in exchange for a larger amount of delayed damage over time. This will allow players to give up instant burst potential in order to deal DOT DPS. For example, the keystone could convert 30% of damage that would be dealt by abilities into a burn over 4 seconds that deals 55% of the original ability damage. This would result in the ability doing 125% in total but spread out over a longer period. Squishy targets would normally die within 4 seconds of fighting, so this mostly impacts fighting frontliners, hence why this addition to the game would fit with increased availability of Magic Resistance on frontliner items.

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