Sunfire Cape and Enchant Cinderhulk should have a 0.25-second damage cadence

darkdill·Jan 21, 2019·36 votes·13,681 views

Right now, the Immolate item passive only ticks its damage every 1 second, which honestly makes it feel unimpactful. It would feel a lot better if it ticked for damage every 0.25-seconds instead of every 1-second, though with the same overall DPS.

For instance, at level 15, Sunfire Cape does 40 damage per second. This change would alter it so it does 10 damage every 0.25 seconds. Thus you get the same overall DPS, but it just ticks more frequently.

28 Comments

oortoomeebreesuuJan 21, 201919 votes

It's not the 1 second tick that needs to be looked at, I think it's the fact that it doesn't tick when you're in range of the enemy, it just pulses. Under the wrong circumstances, you could essentially get zero ticks of dmg off on an enemy who's orb walking despite the fact that they are in range of your aura almost the whole time. That, and damage over time is worthless in the ROFLSTOMP meta but that's a few locked threads and a can of worms on it's own.

darkdillJan 21, 201912 votes

Then this is all the more reason to change the cadence. Highly skilled opponents just weave in and out of the timer and avoid taking damage; changing to a 0.25-second cadence would prevent that.

oortoomeebreesuuJan 21, 20198 votes

I simply meant that the damage registration should be irrespective of time pulse. I still think 1 tick / second is fine, granted, .25 leaves little room for interpretation, but even still it could cause you to lose dps. I simply was suggesting if enemy champion:

Has not taken damage from Sunfire cape within last 1.0 second?

Is Inside of Aura Radius?

If both yes, apply tick of damage immediately, and not until both of those conditions are met again. This way, each enemy is on their own pulse and you're guaranteed to never "miss" a tick unless they are outside of your range. But the moment you enter range , you don't lose any time yet again. The cycle begins immediately with a damage tick. Whether this would be more or less difficult to last hit with, I couldn't say.

ZeromatsuJan 21, 20191 votes

this is actually pretty good.

BigFBearJan 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Then this is all the more reason to change the cadence. Highly skilled opponents just weave in and out of the timer and avoid taking damage; changing to a 0.25-second cadence would prevent that.

Rofl who did that? I can't imagine that pros run in and out right in time to perfectly dodging Cinderhulk ticks, while fighting you. No one does that. Maybe Google AI will do this some day.

EmollientNut0Jan 22, 20191 votes

Agreed. Also if they changed the tick to .25 farming with it would be a nightmare.

Solo Q MemesJan 22, 20193 votes

I 100% agree that this would be a good change for the item. 1 second is far too slow. I think that would make the item more appealing on top of the 150g cost reduction coming soon.

The thigh guyJan 21, 20192 votes

I could see some weird exploits with liandries and hunters talisman with this one.

SithesisLordJan 21, 20194 votes

Just make them not function with auras. Done.

The thigh guyJan 21, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Just make them not function with auras. Done.

This is the company who’s coding team fucked up so hard changing ezreal’s q they removed the root from morgana’s q somehow. That may be a little over their heads. XD

WTBeGirl100EUhrJan 21, 20195 votes

I don't think Liandries or Hunters Talisman tick when re-applied (I could be wrong) but if they don't then it will not cause an issue.

There's also the Kennen R solution, where it ticks every 0.25s but can only affect each target if they haven't been affected in the last 1s.

Sire HippingtonJan 21, 20191 votes

sunfire does not proc spell effects so that won't happen

The thigh guyJan 21, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=50gPX3Ep,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-01-21T08:47:10.187+0000)

sunfire does not proc spell effects so that won't happen

It will apply hunters talisman effect. Cause cinderhulk does and it’s the same passive.

GodlyBaneJan 21, 20192 votes

So at max level 160 damage per second? Nope

darkdillJan 21, 20193 votes

Wrong. Still 40 damage per second at max level, but it deals 10 damage every 0.25 seconds instead of 40 every second.

Rathar DashingJan 22, 20192 votes

Possible negatives including dealing less damage to enemies with Adaptive Helm, finding it harder to leave combat due to more consistent hits on minions, letting Mundo stack his magic resist much faster, the damage per instance would be potentially negated entirely by current Spear of Shojin, and there's a tiny possibility it could screw with Camille's passive logic and give her the wrong type of shield.

darkdillJan 22, 20191 votes

In exchange, it'd give far greater consistency in a variety of situations.

Rathar DashingJan 22, 20191 votes

Exactly. Only real problematic one there is Shojin, but it's getting reworked anyway an isn't even live on SR yet.

darkdillJan 26, 20191 votes

Welp, the reworked Shojin doesn't have that damage reduction anymore, so it's not a factor.

Daddy AntsJan 21, 20191 votes

0.5 seconds against minions and monsters

1 second vs Champions.

BestealJan 21, 20191 votes

I mean screw Illaoi no one plays her anyway amirite?

NhikaJan 21, 20191 votes

If only Tiamat had a 1 second cooldown per auto attack...

SanKakUJan 21, 20191 votes

Not only do that, but we make Ch/SfC damage scale with armor as well? This way, tanks can buy an item they can rely on for damage. How many critical strike items scale with AD? All of them. Then we have Nashor's Tooth and Lich Bane in the AP section...why aren't tank items scaling with tank stats? We get a handful of champions with armor scaling, but their numbers are frightfully low for how much so many non-tanks have been buffed again and again. NT might not be popular, because it's scaling is bad. But mages will still buy it for the CDR and attack speed. Tanks want to buy armor items that feel impactful. That's why players besides me started buying item 3387 and item 3143 because they have really important passives. Sunfire Cape is bought on Amumu. That's about the only champion it's useful on and even on him, you're probably better off either going full AP(lol) or buying a Thornmail.

We could take the idea further and simply replace the passive of Cinderhulk and put it on a new jungle item, one that grants armor and no/less HP. We could also get a magic resist jungle item. A tank lover can dream.

darkdillJan 21, 20191 votes

Much as I'd like for Immolate to scale based on your stats, Riot would forbid this because Immolate works passively and doesn't require player input. They hate "invisible power, no gameplay".

SanKakUJan 21, 20191 votes

They used to have a Gromp Smite buff that scaled off of maximum HP. IIRC it was immolation and was what I thought to be the main reason Sejuani got reworked but who really knows. Maybe it's because they wanted to move her ultimate(or rather a new version of it) over to Neeko.

Champion SkinJan 22, 20191 votes

IIRC it was immolation and was what I thought to be the main reason Sejuani got reworked but who really knows.

Actually it was closer to Thornmail as it triggered on enemies auto attacking you (and yes it did potentially deal a lot of damage)

SanKakUJan 22, 20191 votes

I looked it up and apparently it was a poison touch passive. So yeah, somewhat like Thornmail because it activates when the tank is attacked, but like immolation in that it dealt damage over time.

Smiting the Gromp grants Gift of the Toadstool - attackers are poisoned for 6 (+ 6 per level) magic damage over 3 seconds.

They patched it a few times.

DAMAGE SCALING : Gift of the Toadstool'd champions deal ~~6 + (6 x level) magic damage over 3 seconds~~ ⇒ 4 + (8 x level) magic damage over 3 seconds

They decided tanks weren't popular enough so instead of giving them some better tank scaling usage out of items, over-buffed this Smite Buff.

GROMP POISON : ~~4 + (8 x level)~~ ⇒ 10 + 10% of bonus health

They realized they went too far, so they tried to tone it down.

DAMAGE SCALING : ~~10% bonus health~~ ⇒ 5% bonus health

But the problem was no longer about the numbers but about how tanks were getting power. It made the jungler slot dominated by tanks and that's what made people annoyed. So they took it out. People talk about Cinderhulk as if it was ever a good damage item. It's not. Gromp's Poison is the true reason tanks were dominating the jungle. If you tie tank damage to only HP, you have to be conservative about it.

That's why champions like Braum, Nautilus, and Taric don't have too much HP scaling...it makes them tanky against both magic damage and physical damage. Even if you bring that interaction back, tanks can just ask for a ban on MasterYi Vayne for fear of them buying item 3124 right? So the better solution IMO would be to tie either armor or MR resist to such an interaction. And it could go on the new jungle item, since the AP jungle item scales with AP anyway, it's only fair that tanks get something to scale with better.

Tanks that go all in on an armor jungle item would lack HP and lack MR, so mages could still bring them down with ease. Tanks that go all in on a MR jungle item would lack HP and lack armor, so AD champs could still bring them down with ease. It wouldn't solve all of a tank's problems, but it would give them options, and if the passives for those jungle items are done right, then tanks could become a competitive but not dominating choice in the jungle for all players.