Okay, can we have a serious discussion about her?

Malicious Metal·Apr 4, 2017·38 votes·4,034 views

https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/32955808/lulu.jpg

https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/32955817/lulu2.jpg

But well, you know, A support can't possibly be overpowered, right?

122 Comments

KnoyleApr 4, 201765 votes

So, what you are saying is we need to give Ryze another rework.

BisaknospApr 4, 20173 votes

xDD here take a cookie

KoggyStyleApr 5, 201711 votes

nah gotta nerf irelia.

Lord Phazanor Apr 5, 201716 votes

{quoted}

So, what you are saying is we need to give Ryze another rework.

No, he says mordekaiser should be slower and scale off of 5 new stats.

AhristocatsApr 4, 201728 votes

There is no point in discussion Meddler ignored many posts about Lulu in his "design talk" as well as nerfing Rumble without anyone knowing it. Rumble can get nerfed but lulu can't

The champion that enables bruisers, disengages, bullies you in lane, as well as having a strong sieging is now considered strong only because it's the meta. Meanwhile Janna is only strong at disengaging And being strong in a meta makes you immune to nerfs somehow, because people don't want a meta to change. They want a champion to remain with 70% ban rate 52% win rate 20% pick rate.

If Lulu was strong only because of the meta, Tahm kench and other protective supports would also have 70% ban rate, but they don't

Sincerly -gH

0 HogapuApr 4, 20173 votes

If Lulu is strong at basically everything, while Janna is only strong at disengaging, why does Janna have a higher winrate than Lulu, while having a higher pickrate ?

AhristocatsApr 4, 20175 votes

You do know that before having 70% ban rate, Lulu had 30% pick rate and 53% pick rate? you might research it on board as when i started to make threads on Lulu she had those stats It decreased because her ban rate increased reducing the amount of games she had

meanwhile janna has 52% win rate and 17% pick rate http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/janna/diamond

objectively Lulu does more than Janna, the only that janna does better than Lulu is stopping dashes from enemies and that's it I'm not saying that janna is balanced, i actually don't know this is a debate that started since years

But Lulu surpasses every other enchenters right now, i would prefer losing the ability to stop dashes to gain everything she has She works with every classes, can give an AOE slow around bruisers can give bonus movement speed to juggernauts attack speed to adc+protects them she can hard CC a target with a point and click spell to enable mages who should hit with skillshots it's quite hilarious really

0 HogapuApr 4, 20176 votes

I dont know where you get your data from, but I truly feel like I have never seen Lulus in my games before the Q buff she got 2 (?) patches ago. But whatever that might be my personnal feeling And objectively, Lulu does NOT do more than Janna. Her kit is more complete, in the sense that you have more possibilities ; but when you choose to empower an ally, you lose the ability to polymorph an ennemy and so on Im trying to say that Lulu can make mmore choices, but at the end her kit is not as good as others kits. Just imagine if Taric had 30%pickrate, everybody would be yelling at him "omg thats broken, he does everything a support should do, IN AoE !" I think people are getting biased towards her, because Lulu feels unfun to play against (and I know what it is about when i want to get that damn reset)

The thing that could actually be nerfed with Lulu is the base damage of her passive, that deals so much in late game. Otherwise, I truly think her kit is balanced, but unhealthy, though.

AhristocatsApr 4, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-04T23:06:40.463+0000)

I dont know where you get your data from, but I truly feel like I have never seen Lulus in my games before the Q buff she got 2 (?) patches ago. But whatever that might be my personnal feeling

leagueofgraph diamond+ i also never saw lulu in my games before the Q buff

but we're now we're not playing the game before the Q buff

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-04T23:06:40.463+0000)

And objectively, Lulu does NOT do more than Janna. Her kit is more complete, in the sense that you have more possibilities ; but when you choose to empower an ally, you lose the ability to polymorph an ennemy and so on Im trying to say that Lulu can make mmore choices, but at the end her kit is not as good as others kits.

that just doesn't make sense, her kit is more complete but she isn't better? how comes? what exactly lulu fails to do?

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-04T23:06:40.463+0000)

Just imagine if Taric had 30%pickrate, everybody would be yelling at him "omg thats broken, he does everything a support should do, IN AoE !"

i don't care about the pick rate alone, thresh has a high pick rate and isn't a problem lulu has 52% win rate and had 53% before the massive ban rate

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-04T23:06:40.463+0000)

I think people are getting biased towards her, because Lulu feels unfun to play against (and I know what it is about when i want to get that damn reset)

In master we don't ban unfun champs

we ban overpowered champs that will make us lose

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-04T23:06:40.463+0000)

The thing that could actually be nerfed with Lulu is the base damage of her passive, that deals so much in late game.

so you're still saying she needs a nerf

0 HogapuApr 4, 20173 votes

Lulu needs a nerf, just like Kata does, because she is too banned (even if there might be no reason justifying that high banrate, otherly than people not wanting to learn how to play agaisnt such champ)

I wasnt clear ; her kit is more complete (than janna's), because she can chose which spell to use depending on the situation. But she cant polymorph AND speed up an ally, nor she cant damage an ennemy AND shield an ally. We also need to notice that her shield is worse Janna's, in terms of raw numbers, but also utility (ad works with everything, attk speed is more specific)

The thing with Lulu is that she shifts all her personnal power to another ally (if she uses w, e and r on him), making this ally way stronger than any other guy. But by doing so, Lulu is useless on her own, she needs someone to express herself (i wish i'm clear) In master tier, adcs are always good, that is why she gets so banned so much : adc difference would be too high.

People need to play on Lulu's weaknesses, which are her inutility when alone, and the low range she has.

HalcyonDwellerApr 4, 201719 votes

I'll talk about how to beat Lulu after this brief counterargument to the statistics provided.

Ban rate means players just don't like to deal with it.
Pick rates just mean players find the champion fun or rewarding to play.
Win rates are watered down statistics, they leave out a lot of factors and do not paint the whole picture. additionally some of the websites have been broken lately and give false statistics.

I'm going to regret teaching people how to beat my favorite support but here are some suggestions to beat Lulu.

First, gameplay suggestions:

She is a poke + disengage support. This means she is reliant on poking you down and turning on you when you engage in order to win lane. This means that: a. If you bring / build sustain she cannot poke you out of lane. b. You don't have to initiate fights with her, wait for her to overextend while poking, then you catch her with cc for an easy trade. She can't sustain it back up, so after a few trades like this you can zone her out of lane.
Her strength is in her immense disengage power, so if you can bait her abilities out by faking an engage she will become useless and then you can go for the kill while her ult, w, and e are on CD.
her poke is dependent on her Q, but it has a slow travel speed, if you stay far from Pix you will have plenty of time to juke it as it comes in. If she tries to use E to place pix on you or your ally then the next few seconds is the time to engage, because she can no longer prevent damage to her carry with the shield from that ability.

Now some counterpick suggestions:

Nami has sustain and engage/disengage that are perfect for trading with Lulu. If lulu tries to poke you or your lane partner down, you can just sustain it off. And her w and e abilities are too low range for her to be able to harass with them freely. Stay out of range and when she comes forwards to use them, you can bubble her and you and your lane partner can burst her for a nice trade. Nami's e is great combined with Spelltheif's Edge, you can use this to auto attack her and punish her for stepping forwards even if you don't use bubble.
Braum's wall is the biggest 'f**k you' to lulu in the world. Her Whimsy is a projectile, so if she tries to use it on your lane partner you can block it with your wall / shield. This is a very small interaction with her kit and FOTM Lulu players will not know about this. Try it out and watch them cry. Instant profit. Additionally his Q combined with his passive make perfect harass and engage for whenever Lulu tries to step forwards to poke.
Thresh's hook and shield give you the ability to pick and disengage as you choose, so you can make trades when you want and poke / burst Lulu down so that you can zone her out. His auto attack boosting passive gives you strength to do the same punishment as Nami when Lulu steps forwards to poke.
Taric has heals built into his kit and his bastion allows you to cast abilities off of your ally even if they are Whimsy'd. This means you can protect and disengage for your partner easily. If Lulu steps forwards to try to poke you can catch her with your stun for an easy trade. Again, she doesn't have sustain, so a few rounds of this will put you ahead in lane.
Soraka can sustain her ally like nobody else. If Lulu tries to poke you have the perfect opportunity to hit her with Q. When your team tries to engage fights, just drop the silence AoE on Lulu and watch her pout as she is forced to flash just to shield and save allies or cry as she has to watch them die because she can't cast anything to save them.
Morgana can shield allies from Whimsy and can pick Lulu hard with snare and ult. Use the pool to zone Lulu towards where you want to snare her, or to zone her partner away from farm.
Zyra and Brand both have the damage to punish Lulu for trying to poke.

Stars ShaperApr 4, 20177 votes

Posts like this were done for Yasuo too.

The thing is that community hate makes them invalid so why should we apply a different meter for Lulu?

HalcyonDwellerApr 4, 20173 votes

I do not understand, can you please elaborate?

Stars ShaperApr 4, 20174 votes

A bit of a vent. I would write a long explanation but it's a mindtrip of mine.

To keep it short, your feedback is valid and will be taken in high consideration because you are defending Lulu. When the same defense was brought in for Yasuo it was completely bypassed by whiners and still today he is considered OP.

NinjaGuy69Apr 4, 20172 votes

When the same defense was brought in for Yasuo it was completely bypassed by whiners and still today he is considered OP.

I mean Yasuo is a bit too strong at the moment if you ask me, but it's not because of his kit. He's just one of those champions who can abuse both fervor and warlord's.

Stars ShaperApr 4, 20175 votes

Being effective = abuse?

Then I guess Nautilus is a huge CotC abuser.

NinjaGuy69Apr 4, 20172 votes

Being effective = abuse?

I mean...he does abuse the keystones. He can proc both of them with not only his autos, but his Q as well (which is on a negligible cooldown mid to late game) and his damage/sustain is insane late game depending on which keystone you choose. You're trying to use some odd if-then logic to somehow make a point...but I don't see what you're getting at.

GULAG 4 UApr 5, 20175 votes

No, abusing is when you're using something that was not meant for you, such as Trinity force ekko, an AP assassin building AD bruiseresque.

AkeneroApr 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-04T22:23:13.867+0000)

A bit of a vent. I would write a long explanation but it's a mindtrip of mine.

To keep it short, your feedback is valid and will be taken in high consideration because you are defending Lulu. When the same defense was brought in for Yasuo it was completely bypassed by whiners and still today he is considered OP.

He's not op, just has annoying factors that are amplified by the inability of low elo players to do things like cc him, build armor, and dodge things.

DeathBurstApr 5, 20172 votes

Ban rate means players just don't like to deal with it.

Pick rates just mean players find the champion fun or rewarding to play.

But a 90+% combined pick+ban rate is usually a sign that a champion is a problem. Maybe not OP as Malicious claims, but definitely an issue.

HalcyonDwellerApr 5, 20171 votes

She is a problem because people don't know how to play against her, there are successful play patterns against her both for Tanky Supports and for Ranged Supports. The thing is, her kit is more complex than a normal champion so people don't bother to learn how it works.

I made a post going in-depth on her kit and how to take advantage of its weaknesses, as well as listing some counterpicks and how they work well against her.

DeathBurstApr 5, 20173 votes

It doesn't matter why, if a champion has 90+% pick+ban rate, Riot should probably step in and do something.

IMHO they don't because Lulu doesn't have a 90+% pick+ban overall. She's much less contested in Bronze-to-Gold.

AlienPrimateApr 6, 20172 votes

As a Taric main I can add to this. All of the poke/disengage champions are easy to all in against. Just let them push a little bit, clear the bush in river, wait for the jungler to get close and go all in. Lulu will burn her polymorph putting it on cooldown and then the jungler ganks immediately after when she is just a helpless, abilityless minion.

DarkRitualApr 4, 201712 votes

I don't think she's overpowered. Her kit is just absurdly good in the current meta.

RaoulApr 5, 201710 votes

The funny thing is, the ban rate went up alot after the forum hate started xD

TyrekGoldenspearApr 4, 20178 votes

I'm posting here to bookmark this thread so I can see Rubick's reaction to you making a thread that he's made multiple times over and actually getting upvotes on it. :P

Dominick DestineApr 4, 20178 votes

Who the @*#$&% is "Rubick"?

Is he that Dr Sona guy? he makes the worst threads.... at least mine are often jocular and have an element of satire in them, that guy just says the most nonsensical things and plays it completely straight, I used to think he was a troll but I was told he is dead serious about everything.

I hope he rages. Malicious Metal > Dr Sona

Diamond Pride has been indelibly besmurched by him.

TyrekGoldenspearApr 4, 201715 votes

Is he that Dr Sona guy?

Yes.

he makes the worst threads.

No, he's actually quite knowledgeable on the subject of Lol, it's just that his method of presenting said knowledge that gets him hate sometimes. Also he quite frequently argues with other popular boards members. I'm quite sure there are worse threads. At least he gives accurate information. I'd trust his info.

mine are always jocular and have an permeating aroma of satire in them

I agree.

I hope he rages.

I don't. I just hope he eventually learns how to make threads on touchy information without alienating people he's trying to win over and earn downvotes. I have great respect for the guy and upvote him often.

Diamond Pride has been indelibly bismurched by him.

I'm sorry I can't hear you now that you're in Gold Mediocrity.

Dominick DestineApr 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry I can't hear you now that you're in Gold Mediocrity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWDLCTBwyn8&t=0m24s

I have never before been infuriated by a comment. I am very infuriated because you are absolutely right, I am Gold Mediocrity. Gold Mediocrity is disgusting and I must return to Diamond Pride.

I am nothing until I return to my beautiful Diamond Pride.

TyrekGoldenspearApr 4, 20174 votes

I am nothing until I return to my beautiful Unranked God Tier Podcast with Ariel

Well don't let me get in your way. Don't let your dreams be dreams.

Dominick DestineApr 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well don't let me get in your way. Don't let your dreams be dreams.

I've tried hard to get Ariel to do the podcast with me, but he's shy.

I'm not shy, I have done many videos, I wish Ariel would stop being a baby, ditch his fear and join me in the glorious YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=febeVVJcTjE&t=38s

Ariel the CruelApr 5, 20173 votes

I've tried hard to get Ariel to do the podcast with me, but he's shy.

(>_>)

Shyness is the tendency to feel awkward, worried or tense during social encounters, especially with unfamiliar people. Severely shy people may have physical symptoms like blushing, sweating, a pounding heart or upset stomach; negative feelings about themselves; worries about how others view them; and a tendency to withdraw from social interactions. http://www.apa.org/topics/shyness/

Ya...... Try again.

I wish Ariel would stop being a baby, ditch his fear and join me in the glorious YouTube.

You and I have very different interpretations of what makes something "glorious." Also, I haven't been a baby for at least a week now. ;p

Dominick DestineApr 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4yTIBA1e,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-05T00:28:50.403+0000)

(>_>) http://www.apa.org/topics/shyness/

Ya...... Try again.

Must you prove me so completely wrong? this is why I need you, you are my only equal.

There is no other.

Handin Out NapsApr 5, 20171 votes

Idk dude there are a lot of gold players out there, I'm sure you can find more equals.

Ariel the CruelApr 6, 20171 votes

Well that's just insulting. I'm UNRANKED. Get it right.

Don't lump me with all the ranked trash floating around. (Especially those "diamond pride" scrubs.)

Handin Out NapsApr 6, 20171 votes

Dw the only person in "diamond pride" is your gold friend. No one wants to be included in something that cringe.

Ariel the CruelApr 6, 20172 votes

Yes...... That was the joke.....

Handin Out NapsApr 6, 20171 votes

Well... this is awkward....

Ariel the CruelApr 6, 20172 votes

Very.

AhristocatsApr 4, 20173 votes

i renamed, as i grew too desperate on Sona. She is just the true Yorick forgotten on purpose because of the fan service she has, and people are fine with her and plays her a lot so riot doesn't bother to do anything her VO will be untouched, same for gameplay, lore, and everything related to her

i honestly will never play her again

Since i'm Rubick, i like to steal things i decided to steal the name of the best Rubick in the world

gH God

as for Lulu i already wrote my opinion above, she's just too strong with whoever bruisers, adcs, ect... I think riot will nerf eventually but in a lot of time

TyrekGoldenspearApr 4, 20172 votes

Man, I'm sorry for your loss main-wise. :(

I was honestly expecting you to rename yourself to something Darius related though.

AhristocatsApr 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Man, I'm sorry for your loss main-wise. :(

it honestly hurt me because music is the only theme i like

{quoted}

I was honestly expecting you to rename yourself to something Darius related though.

But i'm still a support main tho, i just happened to discover adc darius by luck in fact i discovered that i'm quite skilled at blitzcrank

nothing gives more honor that having the name of a great support as a support main

Malicious MetalApr 4, 20175 votes

Psst.

He mains Blitz now.

We rule bot lane with an Iron fist ( Mordekaiser Blitzcrank )

TyrekGoldenspearApr 5, 20175 votes

Well that explains the hues that echo through the rift every so often.

General Esdeath Apr 4, 20178 votes

Her banrate is high because people in bronze-gold listen to Redmercy and the other high elo players without realizing she's only a problem if you're an assassin (The thing she's meant to counter)

AMYS GRAVEApr 5, 20178 votes

She counters the meta, what do you expect?

Janna has had that winrate for years, why are you on about lulu now when she gets periodically nerfed?

Sexy Jack RabbitApr 5, 20178 votes

This is the fucked up thing about Enchanters. You don't pick an enchanter because they are individually strong in their own way, you pick them depending on which one is most broken.

Normally it is Karma or Janna , but atm Lulu is. We don't JUST need to address Lulu, we need to address the whole Enchanter class, as they've ALL been unbalanced since the day they crawled out of the primordial ooze.

Soraka Literally the second least interactive champion in the game. Janna The least interactive champion in the game. Lulu Either broken or useless. Nami One of the more balanced ones, but still lacks a niche. Sona Sorry who are you again?