Can someone at Riot explain to me how Volibear keeps avoiding reworks/updates?

ModCaptainMårvelous··31 votes·8,543 views

Let's be clear: I'm not a volibear player or main or anything. But really, I want to sit down and ask why Volibear isn't being touched. At all.

#1.) Volibear's Gameplay Pattern is the simplest in League of Legends.

I'm not exaggerating either. Where is the skill expression in Volibear's kit? Almost everything in his kit is "Run at you and check your stats". To further iterate this, here are some comparisons to "Simple" champions:

Annie Has the ability to time E during the Q for a surprise stun. Sure, it's not much, but it's something. Garen Villain mechanic and canceling E for reduced CD. Also timing courage for CC waves. Vi Contains one (1) skillshot.

Volibear's got nothing. No timing involved. No planning. Nothing but psuedo-mind games in passive baiting.

#2.) Volibear has an insanely strong theme wasted on such a generic kit.

Volibear is a ursine (read: bearman). But it's not just that. He's a psuedo-shaman of storms and controls lightning. He's the leader of his people. He's one of Sejuani's councilers in the Freljord civil war. This character oozes potential for someone who does...well, anything with his kit. Instead, Volibear recycles parts from almost every other brusier to be the generic bruiser/diver/juggergod kit.

#3.) Volibear can never afford to be strong.

Remember that time Volibear got nerfs because one guy was spamming him in, like, challenger or something? Volibear is a stat-stick champion. A champion who is only strong if his numbers are filthy mcdisgusting. If his numbers aren't strong, he isn't worth picking.

But for all my complains, Volibear's biggest issue is that he's old. He, more than anyone else, reeks of a design Riot put out because they knew a bear-in-armor would sell. He's a character shipped out ASAP to cash in on a meme that was quite popular at the time during Season 2. I'm not a volibear main, as I said, but this is a champion that deserves better than what he gets.

64 Comments

Sire Hippington18 votes

Zilean "In my day we would have never allowed an armored bear into the League of Legends."

DwarvenGiant2 votes

This quote really makes you realize how much of a meme Volibear is.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vPOZ5yo,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-07-20T01:00:40.251+0000)

Zilean "In my day we would have never allowed an armored bear into the League of Legends."

Sad thing is that's true, Voli is literally an armored bear and can't do shit besides run at people at smack them, which is the entire problem wiht his kit

RiotRiotRepertoir18 votes

Mostly because he needs more than a little bit of work to get to a spot where we'd be happy with him, and there are other old champions that we've felt need the work just as much or more. It's not that he doesn't need it, but I don't think there are particularly strong arguments for why he needs it over others that have been prioritized for VGUs.

Not sure if this is known, but Volibear was originally considered for the Juggernaut update, and we couldn't really find a direction for him. So, the light update attempt has been tried; it just didn't yield anything.

Drunk Tsundere6 votes

Make him the protector of his people, his team. Instead of running at the enemy ADC to flip them into your team, you could give him incentives to flip enemies off of your ADC. And then he could roar to cc them.

I guess what I'm saying is that instead of a juggernaut, I think he would be cooler as a warden.

Ralanr3 votes

Wouldn't that be a good reason for a full VGU? Remake him from the ground up so he's not just "the bear champion" since small updates don't do anything?

Quepha3 votes

That's what he's saying, but full VGUs are as much work as a full new champion, there's a big line for them, and they only want to move forward with one if they have a really solid direction that they strongly feel is going to pay off.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

I suppose that's a fair assessment. (And you actually told me this back during the juggernaut update or so. I made a similar thread because Volibear is a really sore point for me.)

I suppose I just attribute far too much pain-point to Volibear than I do to someone who is clunky-but-unique such as Mordekaiser or Pantheon.

The Blue Rajah1 votes

I think what it is is that even if for example, Mordekaiser or Pantheon are more unique, they're also worse for game health. Volibear is never really oppressive like they can be. I think that's why the difference in prioritization.

Angry Monster1 votes

Can you guys gave him more speed on his Q so he has at least an early game? Its pitiful considering the CDR on it and the fact you cant max 1st.

Shahamut1 votes

Wish they would have found something, might have saved my Skarner:-(

Rozzeta1 votes

Why are there so many champions in need of serious rework?

Dreadlocks1 votes

I vote keep putting him off :) Wouldn't want to see another rework failure xD

IPv41 votes

{quoted}

Mostly because he needs more than a little bit of work to get to a spot where we'd be happy with him, and there are other old champions that we've felt need the work just as much or more. It's not that he doesn't need it, but I don't think there are particularly strong arguments for why he needs it over others that have been prioritized for VGUs.

Not sure if this is known, but Volibear was originally considered for the Juggernaut update, and we couldn't really find a direction for him. So, the light update attempt has been tried; it just didn't yield anything.

As a Voli main for countless ages, this makes me sad. Still waiting for the day Rito shows some love for Bear.

Big Lincoln7 votes

tru

i hope they give him good animations too. in terms of pure visuals/how he holds himself i'd like his fighting style to be more martial arts/something that looks like what a trained warrior would do as to how he currently acts swinging his big paws. we have enough savage beast-men i think

also more lightning plz

Cocho3 votes

Sometimes its good to have simple characters for newer players. My friend who introduced me to league played alot of volibear, and when I started, I basically one tricked annie.

The barrier for entry to league is decreased by simple champs.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

There's a difference between "Simple" and simplistic however.

Camille is a very basic champion with the most "difficult" thing about her being the Q timing. Despite this, she's an execution-heavy character and the difference between a new camille and a 1k game camille is exponential.

Volibear has none of that. And yes, while there is a place for "simple" champions, having champions who are simple with no room for growth is worse for players who enjoy the champion but are told to move on because they've done all they can with this basic champion.

Asayake 5150glow5 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between "Simple" and simplistic however.

Camille is a very basic champion with the most "difficult" thing about her being the Q timing. Despite this, she's an execution-heavy character and the difference between a new camille and a 1k game camille is exponential.

Volibear has none of that. And yes, while there is a place for "simple" champions, having champions who are simple with no room for growth is worse for players who enjoy the champion but are told to move on because they've done all they can with this basic champion.

That's not true, knowing when to use W, dodging/predicting shit with R, juking things with the dash portion of E, hitting a W mid E, and landing E are all important parts of playing Camille. She's not simple.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

When we talk about the BASE level of understanding what it takes to play a champion, Camille is easy. The only part that really is difficult about her at a level in-which you have to understand how to use the champion is what I mentioned.

Everything you listed are mechanics that separate the beginner camilles from the advanced camilles. Everything you've spoken about contributes to her skill ceiling, not her skill floor.

As another comparison, Azir (one of the hardest champs) has tons of mechanics you have to understand at a base level to make him playable. Soldier placement, his range with soldiers, etc. All of these are things you have to understand to play Azir to a level where you're not actively hindering the team.

Disembark1 votes

the whole problem here is that a champion's power budget is stored into their "skill ceiling". For example, Garen used to be just a full faceroll champion, and in a sense he still is.

However, they put his power budget inside the villian mechanic and whatever other mechanics they're introducing to him.

So the champion feels "weak" to newer players because their power is stored into a different mechanic which they don't fully understand. For example, old WW was very simple and easy to use, however new WW has a lot of his power locked away in understanding how to use his Q, how to use your W for ganks properly, how to use his fear properly in combination with his W and how to use it as a damage reductiont tool. Before it was just "I ult, I kill". Which sure is uninteractive, but it was a good way for new players to learn how to jungle.

paisy1 votes

You could've used a better example

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Perhaps, but personally I think Camille is the most recent champion to come out who isn't really "hard" to pick up.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between "Simple" and simplistic however.

Camille is a very basic champion with the most "difficult" thing about her being the Q timing. Despite this, she's an execution-heavy character and the difference between a new camille and a 1k game camille is exponential.

Volibear has none of that. And yes, while there is a place for "simple" champions, having champions who are simple with no room for growth is worse for players who enjoy the champion but are told to move on because they've done all they can with this basic champion.

If you can't land your E, you will be destroyed in lane as Camille. If you can't hit W, you'll also be destroyed in lane. If you can't dodge shit, you'll be destroyed too.

Assuming you're facing a fighter who's relatively good at dueling.

Toplane fighters are very skill reliant, being just a little worse than your opponent means you get stomped.

Starcraft243ver3 votes

Well, he can throw the fed ennemy assassin/bruiser into your squishies so it's an interesting mecanic.

DoktorKaiser2 votes

Ok, I dont agree that he is the simplest champion, I still think that Garen is just the king of braindead, also Rammus, Malphite and Nunu are much more braindead in my honest opinion. But yes, he needs a rework, I like him and I like playing him but he is just either pure trash like right now or he is impossible to stop, in metas where he is a strong pick I managed to break 80% win rate which is fucking retarded, but atm I can barely get more than 40% which is also retarded. Its really obvious that he needs a rework, hopefully RIOT will show the bear some love

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

If I may try to change your mind?

Rammus, Malphite and even Nunu all have mechanics and/or aspects that give them something, however small, comparative to Volibear. Malphite for example has to hit his ult, which is a skillshot. Nunu has to properly time his ult and use vision stacks for increased damage. Rammus now has to be careful with his power ball. Even Garen, as I mentioned, has the mechanic of timing his W now to get the most out of his tenacity. Are these things SUPER deep or incredibly complex? Not at all. They are, however something that can happen to you and fuck up your day.

Now, comparative to all these champions, what is the most skill-intensive thing on Volibear?

You could argue timing W so you get the execute but chances are you're biting when you can because you're a melee with little-to-no sticking power. You could argue baiting your passive but that's not really a skill so much as taking advantage of your enemy being careless. Volibear has no skillshots, nothing he can "miss" per say unless you don't get close to them.

Volibear, in that regard, is a champion of touching. A champion who only wants to walk up and give you a big ol' touch. Then it becomes a question of if you survived him touching your forehead or if you died. You could argue volibear gets more complex by buying actives but any champ can do that. At the end of the day, Volibear right-clicks you to death. while occasionally pressing Q W or E.

Disembark3 votes

Volibear is far more complex than you make him out to be. You state annie's mechanic is "pressing E for stun with Q".

  1. Well Volibear also has his Q as an auto-attack reset and can also cancel his auto-attack animation with his Q making it "instant".

  2. He can also Q any jump/dash in the game to cancel them (kha, trist, graves, camille...).

  3. Using his ult chain lightning on minions to kill someone.

  4. Knowing how to use your bite to poke/execute (because it scales off enemy's missing health, and it has a substantial cooldown and is most of his damage).

  5. His fear on his E is great for trading and not taking minion damage.

  6. Using his passive properly. Taking "losing fights" and winning them because of the health regen.

You're blatantly leaving things out to try and make him seem more simple than he is. He's in the same level of simplicity as Mastery Yi/Tryndamere. Some mechanics, but mostly just right-clicking to death.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

See, the difference there is that these aren't exactly mechanics that are unique to Volibear nor are they mechanics that are particularly deep.

In the Annie comparison, Annie's the one in full control of her stun-trickery. It's a game of chicken, so to speak, with her lane enemy. Annie is banking on her lane enemy not knowing/realizing the Q-E-Stun trick while her lane enemy is hiding or aware of the fact that annie could very well do this sort of thing. It's a simple mechanic, yes, but there is depth there. However small it is.

Now let's take a look at Voli Q as an auto-reset. For one, Volibear has to use it to get in so the first Q isn't going to really have that mechanic. Beyond that, while you can auto-reset, most of the time it's better to use it as soon as it's off CD for the sake of having hard CC. Theoretically you can have this mechanic but in terms of Voli's role (A disrupting bruiser/juggernaut), you care more about the CC than being able to auto-reset.

Stuff like the Q dash-cancel isn't usually placed in Volibear's hands either. If you cancel the dash, it's less about you timing it right but more about your enemy waiting too long to dash. You don't have the mechanical say in this, the enemy does.

But let's pull back: Almost everything you've focused on is something either already in another champion's kit or with little strategic depth. Knowing to execute with W isn't exactly a "mechanic", it's more so just using the skill for its intended use (And even then sometimes it's just better to use it while trading). Passive-baiting isn't a mechanic so much as it is praying that your opponent overcommits with it up. (Unlike the annie situation, once again it's all in the other player's hands.) but most of all, anything that would make Volibear more complex is usually chalked up to obvious uses of your kit. Knowing how to use Volibear, not showing "mastery" of volibear. It also doesn't help that certain mechanics in volibear ala AA resets can be applied to any other champion with the right items.

I'll concede that maybe the E fear is decent for trading and a neat little thing. But even taking that into considering, Volibear falls insanely flat in mastery, execution skill, player/enemy combat patterns and a variety of other fields more so than most, if not all, other champions.

Disembark3 votes

You completely glossed over using ult chain lightning on minions to damage.

Timing his Q to cancel dashes is HUGE and its completely in your hands. You can reactively cancel a lot of jumps (kha, trist) and the only way they get away is if they jump before you get close, which isn't always possible using bushes (also in which case they cannot fight you either - and ALSO they just wasted their only esape s. Or for example Camille, if she doesn't hookshot away before you get close, you hold your Q for her hookshot and she never gets to use it.

Also MANY times, especially in ganks, you don't start with Q. That's stupid. You just get a flank position or use ghost/righteous glory to just "walk up" to them. You then E them for a very long slow. You always save your Q - its your most important ability in terms of CC. After they dash/flash, then you Q, get another burst of movement speed.

Also the auto-attack reset is VERY important to apply your bite quicky (auto-auto-flip + bite mid-flip). This allows him to turn a chase around (you're at 5% health, theyre at 15% health, you E for slow and run until bite is off CD, turn , auto-auto-flip execute before they can do much).

ALSO, you can fear Heimer turrets/shaco clone etc. Another good interaction.

But that's not what's important

The whole essence of this thread is flawed.

What's important is that he's not necessarily a "stat stick" champion. He provides really good pick potential and has good dive/peel potential (flip is great peel/pick, your E slow is disgusting to help your backline kite).

Your bite + smite is also good at securing objectives.

IDK why you're so hung up on volibear being a "stat stick champion" when shit like Dr. Mundo or Udyr are literally just a walking ball of stats and ACTUALLY have no reason to be picked unless they're broken stats-wise.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

IDK why you're so hung up on volibear being a "stat stick champion" when shit like Dr. Mundo or Udyr are literally just a walking ball of stats and ACTUALLY have no reason to be picked unless they're broken stats-wise.

I can actually answer that, which sort of goes to the onus of this thread as well as why I focus on Volibear and not other, (possibly) more problematic champions:

Nobody really talks about Volibear.

Udyr, for example, has been in the PBE cycle for months now with all sorts of changes being thrown around. Mundo has shown up a few times as well, along with just recently with some major changes. Both of these champions have had work done to a scale far greater than Volibear. The last touch-up volibear had was in 7.7 that...gave him more bounces. That's it.

My problem is less so outright anger and more so frustration. Volibear, a legitimately interesting champion from a thematic point of view, is seemingly neglected. Before the ult buff, Volibear's last touch was a nerf in 6.19. Before that, a bug fix in 5.22. Now, I can't say I expect volibear to be touched in EVERY SINGLE PATCH, but when a champion like Udyr gets a ton of work or a champion like Mundo gets entirely new mechanics added, seeing Volibear left behind just feels...wrong.

So, to sum up, I hate the idea of Riot leaving behind a champion which has so much potential and neglecting him until years down the line when more problematic characters are taken care of. Volibear, as a champion and as a concept, deserves better than that.

Hypernater1 votes

as a voli otp all i can say is this: while most of that is true, it just feels ridiculously disjointed, his q is very underwhelming when trying to chase people, that it almost forces you to buy dead mans. he shouldnt be as item dependent as he is. not to mention that there are so many better gap closers in the game which are safer to use. he just feels old, and his q and e only slightly work with each other and his ult is good early game then quickly goes to shit. there are just other champs that do everything he does better

Wukong Airlines2 votes

To be honest it's frustrating to see even newer champs like RekSai for example get buff/nerfed and adjusted/updated just because she witnessed lots of plays in LCS. meanwhile older..WAY older champs Volibear Pantheon MonkeyKing (wukong hasn't been touched in 3+ years, not a single buff/nerf or update) Tryndamere get completely ignored because they don't affect much the overall game's lore, don't have much player base and aren't flashy enough to get some love.

Jar Jar binks l1 votes

I know really, they rather give fking swain a vgu , where he is already in a fine spot

LostFr0st26 votes

Swain IS NOT in a fine spot. Especially his rig. Swain has been on the waiting list for at least 4 years and has been locked out of skins and anything related to that since then. He needs this VGU.

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

Swain IS NOT in a fine spot. Especially his rig. Swain has been on the waiting list for at least 4 years and has been locked out of skins and anything related to that since then. He needs this VGU.

swain is not fine? lol hes easy af, and is pretty good.

LostFr0st12 votes

So because Mord is in a "Fine spot" (disregarding the bugs) and is "pretty good" we should skip him too right? ofc along with Xin and placeholder Aatrox (who is getting an actual update this fall).

I don't agree.

Very sorry if I come across as salty, but Swain players have been waiting for a very long time.

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

So because Mord is in a "Fine spot" (disregarding the bugs) and is "pretty good" we should skip him too right? ofc along with Xin and placeholder Aatrox (who is getting an actual update this fall).

I don't agree.

Very sorry if I come across as salty, but Swain players have been waiting for a very long time.

Morde is fine, but is obviously in need of work. I don't think Swain has the same issues. He got some light work a while ago and it seemed more than enough.

LostFr0st12 votes

Here's how Swain works right now:

Is he ahead?

Yes?-----> Swain point-clicks you and wins. No?----->Swain is useless and dies.

With new item 3010 he doesn't even really run oom if he's paying attention in a fight. Once he gets item 3116 it's just very not fun and not interactive for both sides.

Bob the Toastr5 votes

Yorick: Don't talk to me about not getting skins lol

LostFr0st4 votes

LOL, your club-mates Cassiopeia and Viktor aren't happy either Yorick-mori.

Hoping he gets something good.

Bob the Toastr2 votes

True, true.

Iota Theta1 votes

I could be wrong here, but back when they were working on or finishing up Yorick, I vaguely remember a dev blog about how they go about the reworks, I was sure at one point it said that, while kit and health show a need for a rework, some champs get pushed back because they don't quite have an idea they agree that could work, which in part was why Yorick was frozen for so long.

Maybe they just haven't quite gotten a decent idea for him and a few others yet? (It's how I keep myself going waiting for Malphite's)

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

See, that's the thing though: Volibear has such a strong theme that you can do a TON with his character. I find it hard to believe Riot can't figure out how to make an armored lightning shaman bear interesting.

iDemacia2 votes

It may not necessarily be that they can't figure anything out. Could be something where multiple people have different directions they want to go like this:

Person 1: "We should make Volibear into X!!" Person 2: "No Volibear should definitely be Y!!"

etc etc

Could also be that nobody is even talking about it but we'll only know by asking about it so kudos for bringing the subject up. Hope ya get a red response out of it

Meep Man1 votes

I completely agree with this post. Everyone harps about Mordekaiser, Skarner, and all the rest, but at least they are remotely enjoyable to play and have some complexity to their kits. Volibear is run in, flip, roar, AA some, bite, AA some more. All simple button presses with little to no aiming.

KawaiiShroom2 votes

I find that way for fun than skarner. Skarner you need to spam q which makes my finger hurt :/

Anags1 votes

Are you really in that big of a rush to have voli turned into a different champion?

Because that is what will happen.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

If it means him being more interesting and having more depth? Absolutely.

AdeBug1 votes

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