@Riot can I get a rioter to answer these questions?

CitadelOfIce·Feb 17, 2016·106 votes·25,858 views

Last season you had a clear goal, strategic diversity. What is the goal this season? What are you trying to do with the game this season and why? Are you happy with the current state of the game? What do you think of the negative stance the boards seem to have taken to the current meta? Apart from mages are there any other groups that you think need a rejuvenation?

Last and more personally, do you have any plans on modernizing champions like Jayce who do not benefit from as many items as they once did due to there skills not applying on hit affects or not criting?

Up vote this if you want to see Riot answer these too. Also post your own questions, I want to see what else the community is wanting to know.

161 Comments

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201682 votes

Lot of questions here so please forgive some shorter answers:

Significant differences between the different champions in a class has been our biggest focus so far this season, with the changes to marksmen to give them noticeably more different kits being the clearest example of that. We'll be continuing to work on that throughout the year, though will likely introduce some other focuses as well at some point.

We're fairly happy with the state of the game overall, especially as we start to smooth out some of the rough points from the preseason (we're starting to get masteries to a point of decent variety for example). Plenty that still needs work though, from individual champion balance (GP, Ryze, Udyr etc), to systemic game issues (low interaction strategies in top tier play early game, low significance of Rift Herald, player frustration with available options versus stealth champs etc).

Boards skews pretty negative, compared to discussions on the Devcorner, results from in game surveys, discussions on third party sites like Reddit etc. That's been true historically too, though I'd agree it does feel like a more negative tone at present than usual. There's still some really great feedback and discussion here that illuminates things some of the playerbase are unhappy with. There are also a lot of posts that aren't constructive though which doesn't make for a great signal to noise ratio.

We're planning on tackling another class in an update at the end of the year. Assassins, initiating tanks and diving fighters are the groups we're considering. We'll potentially work on one or both of those other groups next year, though will reassess closer to the time of course.

Making sure champions have kits that support an appropriate range of itemization is something we'll continue to work on. Not sure about Jayce specifically though sorry.

C9 Scott Free Feb 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lot of questions here so please forgive some shorter answers:

Significant differences between the different champions in a class has been our biggest focus so far this season, with the changes to marksmen to give them noticeably more different kits being the clearest example of that. We'll be continuing to work on that throughout the year, though will likely introduce some other focuses as well at some point.

We're fairly happy with the state of the game overall, especially as we start to smooth out some of the rough points from the preseason (we're starting to get masteries to a point of decent variety for example). Plenty that still needs work though, from individual champion balance (GP, Ryze, Udyr etc), to systemic game issues (low interaction strategies in top tier play early game, low significance of Rift Herald, player frustration with available options versus stealth champs etc).

Boards skews pretty negative, compared to discussions on the Devcorner, results from in game surveys, discussions on third party sites like Reddit etc. That's been true historically too, though I'd agree it does feel like a more negative tone at present than usual. There's still some really great feedback and discussion here that illuminates things some of the playerbase are unhappy with. There are also a lot of posts that aren't constructive though which doesn't make for a great signal to noise ratio.

We're planning on tackling another class in an update at the end of the year. Assassins, initiating tanks and diving fighters are the groups we're considering. We'll potentially work on one or both of those other groups next year, though will reassess closer to the time of course.

Making sure champions have kits that support an appropriate range of itemization is something we'll continue to work on. Not sure about Jayce specifically though sorry.

Is there any chance of doing all of those classes or at least one champion of each class per patch over the year that way you don't have to drop them all at once? Jayce does feel kinda meh unless the enemy team comp is all squishy. The craziest hard carry style games I have had on him were with ADC items but he kind of sucks bot lane hard.

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201617 votes

We bundle these class focused updates into patches for a couple of reasons in particular:

Working on multiple members of a class at once means we've got a number of designers all tackling similar problems at the same time. That means they're able to build up frameworks to work within together (e.g. what tools should a juggernaut have, which strategic spaces would it be healthy to shift marksmen into to differentiate them etc). That leads to a more productive way of working an helps avoid kit overlap (one of the biggest things we're trying to fix) as we map out space for multiple champions at once.
Doing batches of a class together mean we can then make more comprehensive item changes in conjunction with the champion updates that support and synergize with the kits. As above developing an understanding of the classes strengths and weaknesses as a group then also helps a lot with understanding itemization needs and restrictions.

KingsgraveFeb 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We bundle these class focused updates into patches for a couple of reasons in particular:

Working on multiple members of a class at once means we've got a number of designers all tackling similar problems at the same time. That means they're able to build up frameworks to work within together (e.g. what tools should a juggernaut have, which strategic spaces would it be healthy to shift marksmen into to differentiate them etc). That leads to a more productive way of working an helps avoid kit overlap (one of the biggest things we're trying to fix) as we map out space for multiple champions at once.

Doing batches of a class together mean we can then make more comprehensive item changes in conjunction with the champion updates that support and synergize with the kits. As above developing an understanding of the classes strengths and weaknesses as a group then also helps a lot with understanding itemization needs and restrictions.

So would Aatrox/Xin/Irelia/Kayle/Jax be considered as a Sub-Class that could get updates in the future?

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201613 votes

Aatrox, Xin, Irelia are champs we classify as diving fighters. If we were doing a diver update (divers are one of the groups we'd like to get to at some point) we'd definitely want to work on Aatrox, suspect we'd probably do at least some lighter work on Xin and Irelia.

Jax we see as a hybrid of diving fighter and light fighter (like Yi, Trynd, Yasuo etc).

Kayle's a weird hybrid that doesn't fit any of our sub class definitions well. That's ok, they're there as ways to assess champions, not necessarily rigid requirements (Singed is another good example of a hard to categorize champ, with elements of juggerant, initiator tank and his own stuff rolled together).

SaixosFeb 17, 20161 votes

What would you categorize Azir as? He seems like a mage, but somehow to me he looks much more similar to GP than anyone else in the game. I get the feeling that post update zyra may also seem very similar to both of them.

I think that classifying something as mage or marksman may be in error, classification on playstyle rather than on itemization. From my perspective Jhin for example would be a mage, and Azir a marksman.

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201612 votes

Azir doesn't fit any of our control sub classes particular well, though he's got elements of both marksmen and control mages (champs like Heimer and Anivia).

Kanzaki RankoFeb 17, 20163 votes

Hey Meddler, how do you currently feel about Veigar at the moment? He feels a bit gimped (to me at least) with the base damage nerfs on top of all of the itemization kind of putting him in a weird spot. I'd really appreciate a reply if possible, thanks!

KingsgraveFeb 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox, Xin, Irelia are champs we classify as diving fighters. If we were doing a diver update (divers are one of the groups we'd like to get to at some point) we'd definitely want to work on Aatrox, suspect we'd probably do at least some lighter work on Xin and Irelia.

Jax we see as a hybrid of diving fighter and light fighter (like Yi, Trynd, Yasuo etc).

Kayle's a weird hybrid that doesn't fit any of our sub class definitions well. That's ok, they're there as ways to assess champions, not necessarily rigid requirements (Singed is another good example of a hard to categorize champ, with elements of juggerant, initiator tank and his own stuff rolled together).

Im curious how Aatrox and Jax aren't both hybrids by your definition.

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201613 votes

I can see where you're coming from on Aatrox, and I think aspirationally he is at the least a light fighter hybrid. His play tends to be somewhat more on the focus a particular target end of things though, rather than working his way through multiple targets with auto attacks as much as Jax does. Combine that with incentive to build tankier than Jax and, at least in terms of present functionality, diver's the bucket I'd put him in.

SuperLuigiLXIVFeb 17, 20162 votes

What would you classify Wukong as? He almost seems like a diving fighter to me, but so much of his play revolves around his ult, which is one hundred percent a teamfight-oriented ult, which when combined with his preference to build bruiser, makes him sort of "secondary initiation" where most of your diving fighters also look like splitpush-focused champions.

I feel like Wukong's too teamfight-focused and bursty to be considered a light fighter, which all seem like duelists (and again splitpushers) to me.

...or well, I guess if Wukong would be considered a bruiser, my question should be, what are your thoughts on the bruiser class moving forward? Are they a medium between light fighters and juggernauts? That worries me if it's true, because if bruisers try to take a middle ground, they're just going to get run over.

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 20165 votes

We do see Wukong as a diver, though one with an off class ult. While we've been using these sub class definitions as ways to analyze champions they're not hard rules to follow but instead ways of thinking about strengths and weaknesses. Pretty much every champion's going to break the expected rules of the class they're closest to in some ways.

SaixosFeb 17, 20161 votes

Could you perhaps list some of the people that you might call the "absolute stereotypical poster boy" of a class?

If I had to guess, Darius for juggernaut, Vi for diver, trist or cait for marksmen, Nami or Janna for enchanters?

RiotMeddlerFeb 19, 20163 votes

We're planning a dev blog that'll run through strengths and weaknesses for each of the sub classes, with examples of poster child champs for each, other champions by class and champions that don't fit into those class definitions. Guessing we'll have that ready sometime in March.

As far as your guesses go, you're right on the mark with the exception of Trist. Enchanter also isn't a term we're necessarily set on yet though (it's not bad, but wouldn't mind something that encompassed a wider thematic space if possible).

Malicious MetalFeb 17, 20162 votes

Can Mordekaiser be regarded as the Quintessential Juggernaut? He does not have ANY CC or mobility in his kit and seems to fit the bill perfectly. Except abysmally low base stats that is ^^''

RiotMeddlerFeb 19, 20162 votes

Very limited range is one of the key weaknesses we believe juggernauts should have. Morde breaks that rule, which is fine, it does mean he's representative of juggernauts in general though compared to say Darius or Nasus.

NefasFeb 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Very limited range is one of the key weaknesses we believe juggernauts should have. Morde breaks that rule, which is fine, it does mean he's representative of juggernauts in general though compared to say Darius or Nasus.

I guess I just completely don't understand what you mean here. How does Morde not have very limited range? Are you saying that E, an ability that is just barely longer than a Caitlyn AA is supposed to be considered a long ranged ability? It is a little longer than Apprehend and is the same range as Spirit Fire. I'm really having a hard time taking range seriously as not being a weakness for Morde. Sure cooldowns, but come on.

QuephaFeb 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I guess I just completely don't understand what you mean here. How does Morde not have very limited range? Are you saying that E, an ability that is just barely longer than a Caitlyn AA is supposed to be considered a long ranged ability? It is a little longer than Apprehend and is the same range as Spirit Fire. I'm really having a hard time taking range seriously as not being a weakness for Morde. Sure cooldowns, but come on.

Caitlyn has one of the longer auto ranges in the game and while there are certainly longer ranged abilities, I would still call that range pretty respectable.

Darius's apprehend has decent range but that still pulls a target to him instead of harassing while maintaining distance. Say there was a fed Trundle on the enemy team, Darius still pulls Trundle into a range where Trundle can fight back while Mordekaiser just sits back and pesters him.

DeathBurstFeb 18, 20162 votes

I would even go as far as saying that every champion MUST break the expected rules of the class. That's what makes Champions unique, or otherwise, you could have only 1 champ per class.

Krys StarFeb 17, 20163 votes

Hey Meddler, now that the Poppy's rework is out, I've thought about it: Why not update Jarvan's Catclysm (R) to work the same way Poppy's as Steadfast Presence (W)? Whereas in champions cannot escape the Cataclysm, and if that'd be too powerful, at least so that the initial target he casts it on, cannot leave Cataclysm until it expires, or they burn Flash to escape it?

I don't play Jarvan. I've never played Jarvan once in my 5 1/2 years of playing League (minus arams). But I feel it's really unfair how poorly coded his ultimate is, and how it usually flops in his face more than it does in his opponent's. Players have complained for years about Cataclysm, and there's never a response about it. I hope I'm not being unreasonable or shying you away here. But I loved having Jarvan on my team. What he provides is amazing, but people don't really care to play him anymore these days, especially considering his kit is outshined by many others now.

Remlap1223Feb 17, 201627 votes

{quoted}

Lot of questions here so please forgive some shorter answers:

Significant differences between the different champions in a class has been our biggest focus so far this season, with the changes to marksmen to give them noticeably more different kits being the clearest example of that. We'll be continuing to work on that throughout the year, though will likely introduce some other focuses as well at some point.

Blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention. I'm looking forward to the mage update.

We're fairly happy with the state of the game overall, especially as we start to smooth out some of the rough points from the preseason (we're starting to get masteries to a point of decent variety for example). Plenty that still needs work though, from individual champion balance (GP, Ryze, Udyr etc), to systemic game issues (low interaction strategies in top tier play early game, low significance of Rift Herald, player frustration with available options versus stealth champs etc).

TBH, I'm not, and I REALLY don't think I'm alone here. But, I'm going to put down my pitchfork and torch because most of the fixes are in the pipeline. What I'm a little concerned about that doesn't seem to be addressed anytime soon are extremely brittle towers, AP itemization, and the death timers.

The towers I get were an attempt to make Dragon an actual thing, but I'm scratching my head as to why there's nothing to buff them atm. AP itemization may come with the mage rework, so I'm going to hold off on that, but I think that the death timers are way too punishing. This isn't a snowball issue, I just feel when I get killed at the thirty minute mark, I feel like Dyrus not being able to play League of Legends, because I might as well take a jog for how long I'll be OOC.

Boards skews pretty negative, compared to discussions on the Devcorner, results from in game surveys, discussions on third party sites like Reddit etc. That's been true historically too, though I'd agree it does feel like a more negative tone at present than usual. There's still some really great feedback and discussion here that illuminates things some of the playerbase are unhappy with. There are also a lot of posts that aren't constructive though which doesn't make for a great signal to noise ratio.

Understatement of the century. I recently posted in a thread that promised the highest voted post a free skin, and I basically equated Riot Games to the Umbrella Corporation for how cartoonishly evil you are. My comment hasn't been buried, so yeah, I think you're being VERY generous to the boards.

We're planning on tackling another class in an update at the end of the year. Assassins, initiating tanks and diving fighters are the groups we're considering. We'll potentially work on one or both of those other groups next year, though will reassess closer to the time of course.

I vote for diving fighters. I think with the itemization changes, they've become too much of a problem. Cough Xin Zhao cough.

Making sure champions have kits that support an appropriate range of itemization is something we'll continue to work on. Not sure about Jayce specifically though sorry.

Now, I don't main Jayce, but I feel like the changes to have him level his abilities six times makes him have an incredibly awkward power curve. Udyr suffers the same problem, but I dunno, the way his stance change was changed just feels incredibly weird compared to other champions' power curves.

ProfDrDeathFeb 17, 20164 votes

TBH, I'm not, and I REALLY don't think I'm alone here. But, I'm going to put down my pitchfork and torch because most of the fixes are in the pipeline. What I'm a little concerned about that doesn't seem to be addressed anytime soon are extremely brittle towers, AP itemization, and the death timers.

The towers I get were an attempt to make Dragon an actual thing, but I'm scratching my head as to why there's nothing to buff them atm. AP itemization may come with the mage rework, so I'm going to hold off on that, but I think that the death timers are way too punishing. This isn't a snowball issue, I just feel when I get killed at the thirty minute mark, I feel like Dyrus not being able to play League of Legends, because I might as well take a jog for how long I'll be OOC.

The issue with the towers could potentially be fixed in conjunction with the changes to make early game in competitive games less uninteractive. Also, putting more emphasis on Dragon as a sieging tool should allow for a nice little tower buff.

AP itemization - what really is the problem there? In 5.22, AP items were changed to no longer have a premium on gold efficiency compared to all other items. If this change hit mages too hard (which, by all available statistics, it did not), the missing power should be added directly into the champions' kits. Potentially done with the Mage Update.

Death Timers, I agree with you.

Now, I don't main Jayce, but I feel like the changes to have him level his abilities six times makes him have an incredibly awkward power curve. Udyr suffers the same problem, but I dunno, the way his stance change was changed just feels incredibly weird compared to other champions' power curves.

The main pecurilarity of Jayce is that he lacks the early spikes in level 6 and 9 from getting access to his ultimate and maxing an ability, respectively.

My question is, is that inherently bad? To have a different power curve than the rest of the roster?

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201636 votes

We'll be doing some work on AP itemization with the mage update, focusing on some of the mana, MP5 and/or CDR items. Concern over AP itemization actually leaves me kind of happy in a weird way, in that AP itemization hasn't changed that much over the past year but it's no longer in a clearly better spot than other parts of the item system, unlike this time last year when ADC and fighter items looked comparatively sad next to it.

Towers we'll be talking about internally soon. It's possible some changes there might help out with the lack of early interaction in top tier play (lack of laning phases sometimes for example) and we're well aware some players want much more murderous towers. Need to talk about whether that's going to be something that's good for the game or not though, or whether given how much better players have got at juggling agro earlier tower diving's an appropriate and expected part of the game at this point.

Death timers I think's a point we'll have to disagree on for now, in that we currently feel they're in the right ballpark, particularly given homeguards being available to everyone for free post 20 minutes.

Awkward CouchFeb 17, 20163 votes

Towers we'll be talking about internally soon. It's possible some changes there might help out with the lack of early interaction in top tier play (lack of laning phases sometimes for example) and we're well aware some players want much more murderous towers. Need to talk about whether that's going to be something that's good for the game or not though, or whether given how much better players have got at juggling agro earlier tower diving's an appropriate and expected part of the game at this point.

Honestly, I think I would be much happier with stronger towers. Right now, its extremely easy to have the jungler gank top lane, get the turret to half HP, then gank again 3 minutes later and get a 10 minute tower. Most recently I played a game as VI jungle, feel free to check my op.gg, and we had a lux who pushed her tower into this teemo. With 1 wave of minions, I was able to get the tower down from half HP without taking a single turret shot. Later on in the game, I took the bot Tier 2 tower from full HP to nothing while only losing half my health in the process. This was just with item 1400 and item 3078 . To me that seems to be a big problem.

I'm actually fine with death timers the way they are currently, the problem is there are way too many objectives that you can take with 2-3 people dead. In previous seasons, a team could take the Inhib turret and inhib itself at around 25-30 minutes. Now it seems at 25 minutes that having 3 people dead on either team means the end of the game. Granted this is the old TSM strategy where you group and wait for the enemy to make that 1 mistake and win the game off of that, but this seems to be happening at the 25 minute mark and not the 35 minute mark like it used to do.

The weaker turrets also make the games seem really snowball much to quickly. If I'm playing top lane and I get ganked by the jungler at level 3, the game almost feels lost already. Another problem with the junglers is, the massive amount of movement speed that they get. With Swifties and Mobies going to go to boots for a majority of junglers, along with Dead Man's Plate (love this item BTW) ZZ Rot Portal (RIP), junglers have a massive amount of movement speed. This means that they are able to run around the map and take towers rather quickly. This isn't necessarily the problem, the problem is how many turrets they can take in such a short amount of time.

This also negatively affects late game scaling champions, specifically Nasus and Viegar. I now feel like there is no good scenario where I would pick either of those champions.

The way that towers are now, makes dragons 2 and 4 almost seem worthless. Back when Dragon used to give global gold, it was an objective that was fought even right at 2:30 when it spawned, even in competitive play. Now we're seeing dragon being taken at 12 minutes, and half the time it's because, well, there was no other objectives to take.

And finally if we look at Rift Harold, the whole idea of this buff is to give that person a distinct advantage while having the buff. In top lane especially, this means pushing your wave to the turret until it dies, and more times than not, I've seen at least one tower being taken after Rift Harold was taken.

I understand that you guys wanted to push faster games, and to be honest, it's actually kind of nice. One thing about MOBA's like League or HoTS or Dota 2 is that you can't just leave the game and que right back up again like you can in COD or Rocket League. So I appreciate the shorter games. The problem is, turrets seem to be so fragile, that one mistake at 18 minutes can almost cost you the game.

BluporFeb 17, 20162 votes

Thanks for the update! If we could get some attention on armor items for mages (independent of the Zhonya's stasis effect), that would be great too. It would be nice to have a branching build from seeker's for those mages who don't value the Zhonya's effect as much. I do think that the build path change for seeker's was smart, so thanks for that!

Krys StarFeb 17, 201619 votes

{quoted}

Towers we'll be talking about internally soon. It's possible some changes there might help out with the lack of early interaction in top tier play (lack of laning phases sometimes for example) and we're well aware some players want much more murderous towers. Need to talk about whether that's going to be something that's good for the game or not though, or whether given how much better players have got at juggling agro earlier tower diving's an appropriate and expected part of the game at this point.

Death timers I think's a point we'll have to disagree on for now, in that we currently feel they're in the right ballpark, particularly given homeguards being available to everyone for free post 20 minutes.

I don't want murderous towers, personally, other than Inhibitor and Nexus turrets not tickling the entire enemy team, even squishies. Especially with the new dragon buffs shipped out. I want sturdier towers that don't require me to babysit at all times, but that may just be me.

And I heavily disagree with death timers being in the right ballpark. One team mate's death heavily penalizes a whole team, especially once you break 20m. With how weak and defenseless towers are currently, death timers feel awful and stresses you out a lot!

l Helios lFeb 17, 201613 votes

And I heavily disagree with death timers being in the right ballpark. One team mate's death heavily penalizes a whole team, especially once you break 20m. With how weak and defenseless towers are currently, death timers feel awful and stresses you out a lot!

I disagree. Sure it hurts your team when one person dies, but that's just a punishment factor for your team for that person getting caught and a reward for the enemy team for a successful catch. That level of punishment is needed for people to learn to not get caught and not take stupid risks. Plus that can make pick comps late game worthless because the deaths won;t mean that much. I mean, is it really ok to say if the ADC dies at 40 minutes the other team shouldn't get a free baron for it because the ADC is back up before they can even get good ward coverage and get in position for it? The catch was pointless then and they should've just seiged or immediately done baron and took the fight anyway. The entire point of long death timers is to motivate people to avoid getting caught because there are dire consequences for it. I think the problem has more to do with people not being able to ward appropriately when behind (or not warding appropriately period) and the high kill pressure of certain champions.

3ofGot40veFeb 17, 20164 votes

VS a fiora a few days ago, I died once and she took both towers over a 30 second death timer like wtf

l Helios lFeb 17, 20165 votes

You mean like any ADC can? If she was shoving that hard, your team should've responded. 4 people still beat 1 Fiora.

That's more a failure of the team than the fault of the death timer.

CrossetteFeb 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You mean like any ADC can? like any ADC can? ADC

Fiora isn't an ADC. She's (at the current moment) a melee tank Vayne. She shouldn't be able to break towers that fast, even in their current state.

l Helios lFeb 17, 20162 votes

Gangplank is an ADC. Tryndamere is an ADC. Yi is an ADC. Anyone who builds a lot of AD and can solo carry can be considered an ADC.

Anyone with decent AD can take towers reasonably well. That's just the stat. If I built all AD on Orianna I could take towers just like Fiora could.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 18, 20162 votes

Bot lane can't get to top Fiora in 30 seconds and if they did bot lane tower would just fall to the enemy bot lane.

Jungler really should have been on that though. Could have gone top to babysit tower and farm your lane as a tax. Or if jungler was bot side they could have gone mid while mid went top.

Still tho.

Hello I am BirdFeb 17, 20161 votes

How dare you have a different opinion!?

EVERYONE DOWNVOTE HIM!

Just kidding I'm sorry ples don't hurt me

l Helios lFeb 17, 20164 votes

It happens all the time sir. Had a post on Vayne being balanced and got downvoted to the Seventh Circle. :P

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 17, 20162 votes

I mean, is Vayne annoying at times? Yeah. I admit though, the good Vaynes show that they know their shit, but most of the time people admire those Vaynes on the ally team, not on the opposition. I've played Vayne a couple times, and it's hard to get through the early game to get those few items that makes it easier to trade as Vayne when you're against someone who can do better. (especially after playing a game as someone who is a ton better early on with just a BF Sword) What you said was true, I've learned to play around the death timers and I'm actually making smarter decisions now.

l Helios lFeb 17, 20161 votes

Did you look up that comment? If so, I'm flattered.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 18, 20161 votes

No, but I'm sure what you said had points to back it up. I just looked, and I couldn't find it. I'd be willing to read it, though! I was watching Anklespankin earlier today, and he had a Vayne on his team, and it was impressive to watch his Vayne obliterate people and take almost no damage.

l Helios lFeb 18, 20163 votes

Haters gonna hate :P

Consider this. Vayne gives up quite a bit in terms of raw power when this is involved in her kit. For every instance of an advantage, something is compromised to make the champion, in a sense, non-overbearing. Vayne gets a lot of damage off of the W proc yes, but she can't distribute procs evenly like Gnar can; she loses all procs on a target if she switches, and the vast majority of her damage comes from simple physical damage. Only about 1/5 to maybe 1/4 comes from the true damage procs. So statistically, a lot of her damage is not linked to the W. Sure it hurts like hell, but it takes time to proc that, which you tend to not have a lot of when getting dove in full 5 vs 5 team fights. In smaller fights (2 vs 2 or 3 vs 2) Vayne have more time because less people are going to be attacking her, so she can get more procs off. That's more the area where Vayne is quite strong than full 5 vs. 5 fights. The reason I say this is because of how the champion is built.

Her passive gives bonus movespeed, sure, but it only works when chasing or moving towards enemies, never for running away. That movespeed is significant for clean up and chasing down stragglers, but it gives her nothing for getting away.

Vayne has a very short range Q dash (300 units, compared to 425 for Lucian E and Graves E or 600 on Corki W [1800 when the package is avaliable]) with a low cooldown that functions as an AA reset; fundamentally, this functions in no way as an escape, only an engage and a dodge. Sure you can tumble through a few walls, but your room for error is quite small, and in a full fight that room for error goes down a lot due to stress and the chaos of the fight.

Her E is nothing more than a push-back (470 units back), which is on quite a decent cooldown, even late game. This is primarily because she won't be leveling it except as her last maxing, which means that cooldown stays at 20 until she is at level 14 (CDR from items non-withstanding for the sake of avoiding build issues). With this in mind, other champions with dashes or blinks or hooks or MS buffs (Lucian, Graves, Irelia, Ekko, Tryndamere, Thresh, Nautilus, Leona, Garen, Nidalee, Kennen, Maokai, Zed is debatable but unlikely due to his W's duration counting with his cooldown, the list goes on) will have theirs up before Vayne's E is off of CD. The biggest thing it gives her is the stun if she land it, but that requires at least decent positioning by the Vayne, which is a 2-way interaction between her and the enemy champion; by that I mean you will never get pinned if you keep good positioning vs. a Vayne. Period.

Her ult gives her invisibility on her Q for 1 s, but pinks and Oracle's help to deal with that. In addition, the functionality of her Q doesn't change; it is still a short range repositioning dash and AA reset. Her ult also gives more chase potential but again, no getaway at all except for a 1 s invisibility. Even then, that won't make up for its short range. Part of the biggest reasons why Vayne can win fights is because she gets a reset along with the invisibility that negates damage on her for 1 second, unless she is caught in AOE or skill-shots (cough, cough).

Ultimately, Vayne's true damage is decent, but it doesn't make up even a third of the damage she deals in the average game. In addition, she has no escapes whatsoever, only engage tools. When she commits, she has to commit. Biggest way to kill a Vayne is single-targeted CC (Lissandra, Maokai, Nautilus, Leona [her Q], Taric, Ryze, Alistar (once the combo is updated and it becomes much harder to mess up [hopefully] etc.). If a Vayne gets hit by any of these in a full fight where the team plays well, then she has no chance (QSS not withstanding, but QSS has a cooldown as well).

Just my thoughts. Hopefully that is sort of clear and concise to give another aspect of the discussion.

Sources: www.champion.gg www.leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wikia/[_] <-- champion used in discussion

I think the pinacle of this reached like -12 or so lol

HextenFeb 17, 20168 votes

Do you think Deathcap warps AP item choices because of how much more overall AP you get when you include in a build? I think its a problem because it creates a lock-in effect for AP champions that simply want a very high ap number inorder to provide hard scaling for their abilites, and less about the strategic reason why you would buy a Deathcap in the first place.

Back then when Hourglass, Rylai's, Luden's and Lichblade were 3000 gold, this was a good balance between the items because its more about which AP item you want that will give a particular effect for your current needs rather than gold efficiency and/or power spikes. With Hourglass and Deathcap being much higher in cost compared to the other AP items, it completely shifts to the idea of simply saving all the gold required to get these two tickets items rather than opting for a strategic reason why you would want a certain AP item.

Would it be better to bring Hourglass's cost in line with other AP items, but reduce the AP? Even changing the ingredients would be needed, i.e. Blasting wand instead of NLR. So you get the following: item 3191 (1200g) + item 1026 (850g) + Combine Cost (1150g) = item 3157 (3200g)

That way, there isn't that big cost saveup and puts the item more about the active instead of its stats.

A Miss FortuneFeb 17, 201634 votes

Death timers I think's a point we'll have to disagree on for now, in that we currently feel they're in the right ballpark, particularly given homeguards being available to everyone for free post 20 minutes.

Death timers feel really stressful to play with currently. Games have to end eventually but there's no reason for me to not have a teammate or two for 50+ seconds while it's still around Mid game. My team is helpless and is at the mercy of the enemy team who can very easily destroy multiple objectives in our base with how weak towers currently are.

It's also worth to mention that early game kills feel very unrewarding while late game kills feel too rewarding a lot of the times because of the death timers. Early game when you get a kill the enemy laner usually comes back shortly after, usually before most champions can even shove a minion wave. Late game whenever someone dies it usually means the game is over unless you're capable of fighting a 4v5 for over a minute.

DessemFeb 17, 201614 votes

Early game when you get a kill the enemy laner usually comes back shortly after

Sometimes I feel like you'd have them out of commission for longer if you got them to 10 HP, then let them B, wait in fountain for regeneration and walk back the entire way.

KrugLyfeFeb 17, 20168 votes

I like how long the deathtimers are it actually makes you think if it's worth dying. If they were lowered people wouldn't be scared to just farm kills or constantly split push if they only had to wait 20-30 seconds to respawn late in the game.

KeevalroyFeb 17, 201610 votes

We're fairly happy with the state of the game overall

When you highlight how negative the reception is as compared to the norm, it should be pretty indicative that we don't feel the same way, and one would think maybe there's something wrong with League's direction that either Riot isn't seeing or refuses to accept.

Just a thought.

Surr20plzFeb 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

When you highlight how negative the reception is as compared to the norm, it should be pretty indicative that we don't feel the same way, and one would think maybe there's something wrong with League's direction that either Riot isn't seeing or refuses to accept.

Just a thought.

The only people on the boards are whiny bitch babies.

From every whiny turd there are 20 happy people. They just don't post on here.

Realize that and have your mind blown!

Cloud273Feb 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Lot of questions here so please forgive some shorter answers:

Significant differences between the different champions in a class has been our biggest focus so far this season, with the changes to marksmen to give them noticeably more different kits being the clearest example of that. We'll be continuing to work on that throughout the year, though will likely introduce some other focuses as well at some point.

We're fairly happy with the state of the game overall, especially as we start to smooth out some of the rough points from the preseason (we're starting to get masteries to a point of decent variety for example). Plenty that still needs work though, from individual champion balance (GP, Ryze, Udyr etc), to systemic game issues (low interaction strategies in top tier play early game, low significance of Rift Herald, player frustration with available options versus stealth champs etc).

Boards skews pretty negative, compared to discussions on the Devcorner, results from in game surveys, discussions on third party sites like Reddit etc. That's been true historically too, though I'd agree it does feel like a more negative tone at present than usual. There's still some really great feedback and discussion here that illuminates things some of the playerbase are unhappy with. There are also a lot of posts that aren't constructive though which doesn't make for a great signal to noise ratio.

We're planning on tackling another class in an update at the end of the year. Assassins, initiating tanks and diving fighters are the groups we're considering. We'll potentially work on one or both of those other groups next year, though will reassess closer to the time of course.

Making sure champions have kits that support an appropriate range of itemization is something we'll continue to work on. Not sure about Jayce specifically though sorry.

On the topic of Ryze, can you explain why you're so concerned with him? I know win rates aren't everything, but the fact remains he only has about a 43% win rate top (his best role). Mid he is doing even worse.

RiotMeddlerFeb 17, 201616 votes

Ryze has been a problem champion frankly forever, starting in beta, where he'd kill you with just his ult at level 6 and continuing through the years. Shifting him to a mana scaling mage with a closer focus and sustained damage pattern a number of years back helped a lot in terms of finding him an identity. Making him healthy within it's been tougher though, in particular finding ways to make him balanceable for a sufficient range of skill levels. His rework last year didn't address his issues overall unfortunately, improving some things but introducing some other problems in the process. As a result he's still been in a state where he's effectively a terrible choice for people who haven't played him a lot, while being very overpowered and nerf worthy in the hands of experienced Ryze players.

KeepeFeb 17, 20163 votes

{quoted}

As a result he's still been in a state where he's effectively a terrible choice for people who haven't played him a lot, while being very overpowered and nerf worthy in the hands of experienced Ryze players.

What I am getting from this is "Well, Good Ryze Players are broken. Let's punish them for taking the time and effort to practice and learn a champion while hopefully making him better for newbies." But that's just me. Insert people hating me here. But feel free, anyone, to explain why I am wrong.

CosnirakFeb 17, 20164 votes

It's not about punishing those players. It's about not letting them run rampant over everyone else. Ryze was clearly overpowered in the hands of people who were really good at him.

KeepeFeb 17, 20162 votes

What I fail to see is how this is different from every champion in the game.

Except Bard. No one's figured out what to do with him yet. (Yes, that's a joke.)

So what, are they going to nerf Riven next because she's too good at people who are good with her? (I suck at her, but I can respect Good Riven Players for actually doing well with her.)

Please explain.

CosnirakFeb 17, 20163 votes

There's a huge difference. Before 6.3 the difference between very experienced Ryze players and everyone else playing him was MASSIVE. Probably the biggest such gap of any champion in the game.

Riven is definitely up there as one of the champions who is probably too good in good hands, and too weak in bad hands. I'd love to see her animations shortened so that you don't have to learn what animation canceling is to not suck with her, and then balance her from that state.

Remember, in my above statement that's not simply "good in good hands" or "weak in bad hands." That "too" in front of both is VERY important. If a champion has a 10% win rate in the hands of players new to them and 45% in the hands of players really experienced with them the difference in play rates between players new and experienced with that champion is WAY too big. The correct solution could potentially be to lower the skill required to play that champion well, along with a big buff for players of that champion regardless of experience.