Why does it feel like DIver's are just more mobile Juggernauts nowadays?

Malicious Metal·Jan 19, 2017·103 votes·5,289 views

You have stuff like Camille, Hecarim and Vi just dive the enemy like it's nothing, shrugging off most damage and just killing whoever's got the misfortune to be on their shitlist.

Like, Melee classes are kinda hard to balance seeing that they all tap into the same itemization but they all got ONE prime thing in common that makes these kinds of champions be a bit too tanky and still deal metric amounts of damage, which is << >>

I feel we might need to take a closer look what exactly the core strengths of fighter subclasses are and really cement those or we're going to see them overlap to the extent where one's just objectively better than the others. Starting with fixing trinity force as item might be a good starting point.

(Edit; Yes, that's a typo in the title, yes, I'm aware so don't point it out >_>)

143 Comments

Big LincolnJan 19, 201729 votes

I made a thread about this earlier, divers don't have enough tradeoffs

don't forget to mention that every Diver has at least 1 hard CC, as well as higher-end DPS } (or very impressive burst Renekton Pantheon Diana )

Juggernauts just usually have better base stats but that clearly isn't enough if there's only 1 that's good Darius . Immobile melee champions should not be compensated with no hard CC and situational damage. I don't know why Juggernauts are so limited in what they're actually allowed to have when Divers get to have their cake and eat it, too. I would gladly give up some base stats if it meant I could have a stun.

ACENOXJan 19, 201717 votes

renekton is a balanced diver, he isn't a mobile darius unlike hecarim or camille The reason to this is that renekton's DPS is HOLY FUCKING SHIT garbage, hecarim's Q cd is 1 sec and camille Q cd is like 2 sec in late game or even less

Big LincolnJan 19, 201730 votes

there's nothing wrong with renekton i was just listing him, he has bad DPS but his burst is pretty good

it's funny to me that one of the most aids top laners in season 4 is now one of the better-designed ones in season 7.

Hyrum GraffJan 19, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T22:05:28.542+0000)

there's nothing wrong with renekton i was just listing him, he has bad DPS but his burst is pretty good

it's funny to me that one of the most aids top laners in season 4 is now one of the better-designed ones in season 7.

Renekton was always a reasonably well designed champion, even when he was strong. Back in that day, they called it "the Renekton bar". They decided that even though Renekton was dominating top lane, they thought he was in a good place for the game overall. So instead of following their normal strategy of nerfing the outlier (renekton), they decided to buff other top laners so that they'd have a chance of surviving Renek's laning phase.

Now, replace "Renekton" above with "Old poppy", "Old Sion", "(old/live) warwick", or "Urgot". Those champs would immediately get the shit nerfed out of them, and for good reason.

RavenMagusJan 19, 201712 votes

Divers are pretty overtuned in general, IMO.

The newest season nerfed most assassins so they couldn't instantly blow up targets.

But most divers can instantly blow up targets just as fast as old assassins used to, only they are generally tankier and provide hard CC while doing it.

It's mostly just how damage is so extremely high in general in the game - so a diver only needs one offensive item (usually Triforce) and that's enough for them to 100-0 a squishy champion pretty much all game long.

Asayake 5150glowJan 19, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-19T21:58:34.239+0000)

I made a thread about this earlier, divers don't have enough tradeoffs

don't forget to mention that every Diver has at least 1 hard CC, as well as higher-end DPS (or very impressive burst )

Juggernauts just usually have better base stats but that clearly isn't enough if there's only 1 that's good . Immobile melee champions should not be compensated with no hard CC and situational damage. I don't know why Juggernauts are so limited in what they're actually allowed to have when Divers get to have their cake and eat it, too. I would gladly give up some base stats if it meant I could have a stun.

The only counter to a juggernaut is to outplay them by kiting or dodging. Stuns mean neither is possible.

Plus, Skarner has a stun, but his damage kinda suffers for it, compared to Shyvana.

If you wanted a stun then go play a diver. If you want to fuck anything that can't or isn't able to outplay you (besides late game ADC's), then play a juggernaut.

Big LincolnJan 19, 20176 votes

that's the point I was making; most juggernauts are outdated and binary.

stuns mean that they can be more flexible in exchange for some of their damage. any form of utility, actually; there's a reason Darius is far and away the best juggernaut.

Asayake 5150glowJan 19, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-01-19T22:53:05.834+0000)

that's the point I was making; most juggernauts are outdated and binary.

stuns mean that they can be more flexible in exchange for some of their damage. any form of utility, actually; there's a reason Darius is far and away the best juggernaut.

That's far and away the point, unless you want to add more biased interactions. Darius does well because he counters, HARD, anyone who can't dodge his Q reliably. Also, he snowballs very hard, being able to nearly 100-0 squishies when ahead , and having engage tied to hard CC, as well as a slow. Then he falls off once he meets an ADC with peel, but he should've gotten his mid fed by now, maybe just by flash + E + full mage combo + auto + W + Q + R.

Also, he does the best when behind, due to his grab pulling people into tower range. It's like Blitz's grab before they changed it to pull people in front of him instead of into him. Although you end up in front of Darius, he kinda pulls you to him, and then you bounce off. When that little bit of extra distance is enough for the tower to pop in a shot... I just wanna kms.

Big LincolnJan 19, 20179 votes

Darius does well because he has a way to force fights and extended trades, and can contribute when behind.

Garen, Illaoi, Volibear aren't going to do a thing except be a meat shield if they aren't ahead of you. Yorick too; if he loses lane, he's out of the game for a long time.

almost the entire juggernaut class is in sore need of another update.

kile147Jan 20, 20172 votes

(Darius) can contribute when behind.

How do you know? I've never seen a Darius behind, just less ahead than normal...

Big LincolnJan 20, 20173 votes

nice meme

take a look at my last game with Darius. 0/5 from a lot of Lee cheese and disrespecting Tryndamere, built tank items and just focused on peeling for my team, and I bounced back and we went from losing all our turrets to winning the game

Chembaron YamadaJan 19, 20176 votes

Saying that Darius is the only good Juggernaut is a bit much in my opinion. Yorick Shyvana DrMundo Nasus These have a winrate above 50%, that's actually good in my opinion. Or how do you measure "being good"?

kasfasJan 20, 201711 votes

Being good in every situation is what makes him good. Nasus needs stacks and has weak laning, shyv needs farm, Yorick needs minions, and mundo is just gimped due to his kit having too much value. Are any of them bad? No, they are just nowhere near as versatile as Darius, which SINGLE-HANDEDLY makes him the only consistently meta juggernaut.

Chembaron YamadaJan 20, 20176 votes

So what you are basically saying is that Darius is the only good Juggernaut because he is a generalist? Meanwhile I remember that Riot stated that generalists are not really healthy for the game. Every champion should have a unique niche and reason to be picked, not just one champion because he is so versatile that he is always a good pick.

I probably got why Darius is getting nerfed soon. :P

PyrithegethonJan 20, 201711 votes

He isnt a generalist, he just has what every juggernaut should have, not extremely conditional damage.

Garen Needs you to be the villian and isolated to actually be threatening.

Illaoi Has to pray to her god 5 times a day that the enemy team is brainded for her to get a 4 or 5 man ult. And if she does they have to be braindead for standing near the tentacles while she is ulted. If they walk away there goes 80% of her damage.

DrMundo He needs a rework, he is so gimped due to his kit giving so much that his damage is subpar early game and late game executioners reduces 50% of his ult, the tool he uses to survive.

Nasus Is 100% reliant on getting lots of Q stacks to actually deal damage. No champion should be reliant on last hitting with a certain ability to actually be semi relevant late game.

Hahahahhahahahaahahhaha this guy is a joke. So immobile with no cc or movespeed to actually deal damage. His W does piss poor damage unless he has an ally to connect it with. His R is ok if he gets the champ ghost but the only way thatll happen is if the enemy adc got caught out or Mordekaisers teams bursts the target.

Olaf ?? If he is a Juggernaut he's fine damage wise at least.

Skarner Fight him outside his spires he is shit. Fight in them and he is fucked.

Darius The reason why he is good is he doesnt rely on hard to achieve gimmicks. All he needs is 5 stacks and he's set.

Troll for TrumpJan 20, 20174 votes

Darius is the renekton bar of juggernauts.

BlåbæretJan 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-19T21:58:34.239+0000)

I made a thread about this earlier, divers don't have enough tradeoffs

don't forget to mention that every Diver has at least 1 hard CC, as well as higher-end DPS (or very impressive burst )

Juggernauts just usually have better base stats but that clearly isn't enough if there's only 1 that's good . Immobile melee champions should not be compensated with no hard CC and situational damage. I don't know why Juggernauts are so limited in what they're actually allowed to have when Divers get to have their cake and eat it, too. I would gladly give up some base stats if it meant I could have a stun.

Are you seriously crying about Diana? Lmao. She has clear trade-offs by being stuck in combat once in. She's also oneof the few building full squishy. Her win and play rate is also garbage. Pantheon is just a poorly designed champion that should be nerfed until useless and then reworked.

Anywayaz, none of champions you mention are overpowered. The only real overtuned divers are and Hecarim

Big LincolnJan 20, 20172 votes

point out where in my post I was 'crying,' you mongoloid

i said she has good burst.

BlåbæretJan 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=000000050000,timestamp=2017-01-20T03:50:22.651+0000)

point out where in my post I was 'crying,' you mongoloid

i said she has good burst.

You say at the start of the post that divers don't have enough trade-offs (whatever that means) which is not true for the champions you mention. You then proceed to cry. Your post makes zero sense other than being pure whine.

If you gave juggs CC and gap closers they would no longer be juggs. The point of the class is high damage and tankiness. Why you want to make them overpowered is beyond me. There's a lot of strong juggs right now.

DKM BismarckJan 20, 20176 votes

Yes but the entire point of his comment and ostensibly, this entire thread, is that juggernauts are inferior to divers in almost every single way. Divers > Juggernauts for burst. Divers > Juggernauts for ease of applying damage. Divers > Juggernauts for mobility. Divers > Juggernauts for DPS (in most cases.) Divers > Juggernauts for build flexibility. Divers = to Juggernauts in tankiness. Juggernauts > Divers for base stats, usually. There is a reason about 8 or so Divers are considered pure aids and there is but only a single truly meta Juggernaut. And this is coming from a person who only plays one Juggernaut, and that would be Yorick.

Raid Boss MordeJan 20, 20172 votes

Mordekaiser gives up base stats and doesn't get any cc whatsoever.... just Juggernaut things.

SqueyJan 20, 20171 votes

Yet his win rate is rising in almost all regions. His play rate is going up fairly drastically in korea. And the only ones i see saying morde is weak are morde players.

no to toxicJan 20, 20171 votes

item 3116 got cheaper effectivly allowing mordekaiser to get his core item much faster. Gee i wonder why winrate is going up alongside Mordekaiser being good against all in champs like Hecarim .

MordepoolJan 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=no to toxic,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=0000000600000000,timestamp=2017-01-20T19:05:39.680+0000)

got cheaper effectivly allowing mordekaiser to get his core item much faster. Gee i wonder why winrate is going up alongside Mordekaiser being good against all in champs like .

Hmmmmmmm 60% cheaper. Hmmmmmmm 80% less stat value
Hmmmmmmm that's not factoring in the passive which got gutted. Ill remark on a recent game I had I ulted an enemy champion which supposedly gives a "permaslow" and watched the enemy outrun me easily

ModCaptainMårvelousJan 19, 201724 votes

Because Divers haven't had their rework yet.

Simply put, Divers are playing 2012/13 League of Legends while Juggernauts are playing 2016/17 league. That sounds odd but you have to take into account that many things Riot has been trying to phase out ( "No counterplay instaburst" and such, be it successful or not) are still present. The counterplay to Vi's ult is to drag her into your team...but you're still getting ulted sans having an invulnerability. Xin is going to dive you and stat check you. Etc etc etc.

If Divers get the 2017 mid-season rework you can bet we'll see a lot of shifting away from their raw power and more toward benefits for diving the backline or getting into the absolute thick of it rather than just being 1v1 gods who are also good at diving the back line.

Goodnight NunuJan 20, 20175 votes

If they're still 2012/13 League of Legends why does Riot make a champion Camille that just does everything those kind of champions do, which as you said is 2012/13 design but better/more reliably? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

RalanrJan 20, 20172 votes

She's just overtunned.

ModCaptainMårvelousJan 20, 20172 votes

Camille doesn't just stat check you however. Camille has to time Qs, hit her W on the cone, proc the RIGHT damage shield (Wasting your proc on the support is a bad time) and more. She may still be very straightforward but that doesn't make her sicknastybrokenOIP just by kit alone.

Hexs FortuneJan 20, 20179 votes

Divers are essentially mobile juggernauts right now

Hexs FortuneJan 20, 20177 votes

Diver is a tanky assassin once they get even a little bit fed

YoungFarmerJan 19, 20176 votes

Feels bad man I made a post about how Trinity force seems to be the root of all problem "tank champions", for example Tank ekko or tank yas and got down voted to literal fucking hell for saying trinity force might be too strong.

Hunna8l8Jan 20, 20176 votes

It almost feels like even the concept of a "diver" is an impossible class to balance.

If you think of say a classic mage, your goal is to cast your spells from far away and do big damage to typically a big aoe. (Just in general mages, not just LoL mages). So if you are failing as a mage it means you are doing less damage, and if you're succeeding you're doing lots of damage. This is easy(er) to balance because you just have to balance around how much damage they do, how fast they do it, and how easy it is to do it.

With a diver your success vs fail looks really difference. A successful diver can run past all their defenses and kill them despite trying to run away or hide under a turret, which feels awful as the player under the turret. "Even though I caitlyn trapped him, used both summoners, thresh flayed him away, and I cleared the whole wave so he had turret-aggro the whole time, the hecarim still ran through everything killed me and got away with 80% health. No fun for the target.

On the flip side a failing diver is essentially useless because you are going to use all of your cool mobility tricks to get to their carry, and then just get cc'd and die without doing anything.

The difference between our hypothetical mage and our hypothetical diver is that a semi-successful mage still has a purpose, whereas a semi-succesful divers purpose becomes "I am not actually doing at all what I'm supposed to so now I guess I build tank and just be a less good tank?".

The fact that there is no neutral outcome for a diver is the main issue here. You can't dive someone, and not necessarily succeed, but not fail either. One of you has to die, that's the characters identity.

I realize this is just analysis of the issue, without any solutions, but... Just my 2 cents :P

badoogaJan 19, 20175 votes

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a7/Courage_of_the_Colossus_mastery_2017.png/revision/latest?cb=20170119020805

4th3t0sJan 20, 20174 votes

And there's the biggest problem, WHY do hypermobile divers/fighters have comparable CC to tanks all the while doing damage?

Towboat421Jan 20, 20175 votes

Because damage as a whole is through the damn roof and class distinction is suffering because of it, if two classes share a common strength but one has an additional benefit why play the worse of the two.

RivetAceJan 19, 20172 votes

Juggernauts have higher base stats (or things like Garen's W which gives him resists). That said, I don't think it's enough to make their defenses too much better than Divers'.

One thing that separates them, in my eyes, is this: juggernauts with 0 damage items will smash your face in, and divers won't. Even the strongest diver needs at least a Triforce to kill you.

However, triforce into full tank doesn't seem like too much of a tradeoff for me. I think divers should have to build at least 2 damage items, not counting titanic.

doublelift fgJan 19, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=u wot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-19T22:01:43.614+0000) One thing that separates them, in my eyes, is this: juggernauts with 0 damage items will smash your face in, and divers won't. Even the strongest diver needs at least a Triforce to kill you.

Have you ever saw a juggernaut without a single offensive item? because i didn't Darius gets black cleaver, and sometimes sterak gage

PermabannedGarenJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-19T22:07:46.126+0000)

Have you ever saw a juggernaut without a single offensive item?

DrMundo Olaf Volibear

NuparuJan 19, 20172 votes

Mundo doesn't need damage because he gets so much for free in his kit. He just needs tank stats to eventually become unkillable while dealing it.

Olaf is picked because he can dive through literally any crowd control at will while dealing fairly high base damage. Immunity to CC is a huge benefit that offsets the damage.

I've never seen a Volibear do well since Season 5.

DKM BismarckJan 20, 20174 votes

It's rare Olaf doesn't get a BC.

I will give you Mundo and Voli though.

PermabannedGarenJan 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade Or Soul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hisEeWE,comment-id=0001000000010001,timestamp=2017-01-20T05:28:35.468+0000)

It's rare Olaf doesn't get a BC.

I will give you Mundo and Voli though.

Olaf top tends to yeah, but Olaf jungle goes full tank. He did in worlds and it was meta for a bit after that.

PB4UAMEJan 20, 20173 votes

Yes, but he doesn't do a particular lot of damage unless very far ahead in levels with such a build, and is mostly used for his perma slow and disruption.

Malicious MetalJan 19, 20177 votes

Too bad every Juggernaut NEEDS to build damage in order to deal damage. They don't magically get more threatening.

Darius and Garen get BC, so does Illaoi, Mordekaiser needs to stack AP, and most other Juggs usually build at least two damage items.

Meep ManJan 19, 20172 votes

Feel like Triforce needs to be changed. As cool as it's giant mass of stats and great passives are, it's basically a huge crutch on the entire Diver class especially. It's Spell Blade passive should be like Iceborn Gauntlet in that it only gets a minor increase in damage, but has a side effect. Also, maybe remove the Movement Speed stat it randomly provides.

CatastropJan 19, 20172 votes

I didn't even notice the typo until pointed it out actually.

DolasaurJan 20, 20178 votes

He's trying to trick you. There are actually two typos.

Troll for TrumpJan 20, 20171 votes

Divers are worse at dueling tanks than juggernauts. That's about it.

PB4UAMEJan 20, 20173 votes

Eh, it depends, Vi and J4 have % armor shred, and usually build a BC to boot, Irelia has on hit true damage, and many of them have mixed damage kits. On the other hand, I wouldn't say Hecarim is going to get through a Poppy any time soon.