Compared to Jhin I mean.
If you see some outlaw with a fat shotgun you kinda expect him to just fire two rounds or so before having a lengthy reload, his insane damage justified by how slow he's to reload.
Yet that doesn't really translate into game.
Dunno, just my two cents, feels like Jhin is the only one out of these two to actually get an interesting ammo system.
Eedat29 votesBut 
doesnt get a massive guarenteed crit. Or a 3k range ult. Or 550 range.
Kinda apples to oranges tbh. Graves' reload system is very noticeable when you play him. It doesn't have to be identical to Jhin's.
Malevolent Metal9 votesBut
Kinda apples to oranges tbh. Graves' reload system is very noticeable when you play him. It doesn't have to be identical to Jhin's.
No he just has massive guaranteed AA damage and tankyness (Just...).
Eedat4 votesAre we going to ignore the fact tht he has to be pretty much melee range to get that extra damage? You're just proving my point. This isnt an apples to apples comparison. They operate completely differently.
13900 Essence1 votesTank stats got cut completely if against ADs, which tbh is the worst to deal with because ADCs out-range him and now he can't survive unless he is right next to them with lifesteal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think his winrate was ever really above 50% recently, and if it was, it wasn't outrageous. Sure he does fair amounts of damage throughout the game (the classic "2-shot" hyperbole where they actually take 3 autos and 2 q procs + red smite because they stood next to a wall), but at most he was only a bruiser. You never had to buy armor or magic pen just because of him.
SpecterVonBaren4 votesUh, no, he lost his MR stats, he still gets armor from his E passive.
Asayake 5150glow11 votesBut
Kinda apples to oranges tbh. Graves' reload system is very noticeable when you play him. It doesn't have to be identical to Jhin's.
However his autos do get 200% damage at melee range.... and the ability to apply multiple cleaver stacks at once.
Eedat14 votesat melee range
Lol? This is what I'm talking about. Its completely different. This isnt an apple to apples comparison. Jhin and Graves operate differently as they should
Asayake 5150glow9 votesLol? This is what I'm talking about. Its completely different. This isnt an apple to apples comparison. Jhin and Graves operate differently as they should
Yeah but honestly the reload isn't super noticable.
If you lane against him, unless you're playing Riven or someone who can trade very effectively, it doesn't matter if you go in on him when he's reloading because he just finishes reloading, and smacks you three times as you back off. Graves's reload mechanic is weird because it just gives him more burst. It's not a Jhin, which lowers his DPS compared to other bruisers in an extended fight, it just gives him more burst without any downside (damage wise). That being said, his autos are bodyblockable, which is nice, but I think their instant Cleaver shred and extra burst (thus better trading, similar to Jhin) make up for that, because bodyblockable autos only matter in laning and barely lategame.
Brain Errör 4041 votesGraves with stormraiders against Riven is the most cancer shit in existence....
Bard to Believe1 votesBut
Kinda apples to oranges tbh. Graves' reload system is very noticeable when you play him. It doesn't have to be identical to Jhin's.
yeah, and jhin doesn't have a low cooldown dash that gives him massive armor and magic resist on top of a one ammo reload per dash. the dash's cooldown is also reduced for hitting shit.
jhin also can't crit towers by targeting minions behind it.
jhin also can't 1v3 with just one item.
jhin also can't adc, top, or jungle interchangeably. he can just adc.
Ralanr13 votesImo two bullets takes less time to load than four.
Melledoneus3 votesRalanr, the one with four bullets is a pistol. The other gun with "two" bullets is a freaking shotgun.
Ralanr1 votesDude, I've fired double barrel shotguns. They aren't slow on reload when you understand what you're doing and have easy access to ammo.
Edit: and Graves probably knows more about how to use a gun than Jhin.
Melledoneus2 votesFirst, that's f*cking awesome. Firing a double barrel shotgun is a story I'd like to hear about.
Second, Graves' shotfun is not your typical double barrel. It has 6 chambers in the back, so that should slow him down if anything.
Ralanr3 votesGraves is only firing two shots so he's only loading two.
I fired an over-under double barrel and an automatic (been hunting) shotgun. Depending on the gauge you get more kick. I prefer loading the double barrel types because of how simple it is (just crack it open, take the empty shells out/watch them pop out, and put new ones in).
Actually firing them is actually less impactful than you think unless you hit something. Sure there is kickback, but unless I see physical results of the shot then I don't feel like I fired an actual shot.
Basically my experience is that firing a gun feels best when you actually hit something.
Melledoneus2 votesThat's pretty freaking metal. Where's MM when you need him?
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesY'all need a towel or something...
Shonjl12 votesPeople just hate Graves since he is basically a tanky assassin ADC. He does stupid damage for how tanky he is. His reloading doesn't exist when he gets 1 AS item, so he will AA nearly as fast as a normal ADC. And did I forget to mention he gets 
and 
every game for about 50% damage reduction and insanely stupid lifesteal. He will out burst you, out dps you, and out tank you due to items and LS. He also gets fed stupidly easy every game.
The only negative going for him is popping him before he can even auto you since he is still squishy prior, which isn't likely to happen since again how easy it is for him to get fed, he makes even Lee's early ganking power seem like a joke. So he will auto you once and get like 1/3 his hp back and gets all the reduction.
Divewing13 votesAt least being a squishy ADC he comes out of jungle with low H-
Oh...
dunder kill7 votesHis reload system impacts the way he plays a lot. Its extremely noticeable, try playing him. He doesn't need the same reload system as Jhin. They're different champions.
lolipopevelynn3 votes[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hUfeOio,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-26T21:48:21.450+0000)
Compared to Jhin I mean.
If you see some outlaw with a fat shotgun you kinda expect him to just fire two rounds or so before having a lengthy reload, his insane damage justified by how slow he's to reload.
Yet that doesn't really translate into game.
Dunno, just my two cents, feels like Jhin is the only one out of these two to actually get an interesting ammo system.
its because graves had his dmg nerfed so much that it doesnt seem impactful anymore. this is why he no longer goes bot lane, his lane is no longer justified because his dmg isnt there early and instead abuses how safe he is in the jungle.
dunder kill38 votesUmmmmmmm he no longer goes bot lane because you can't AA through a wave which makes him terrible. People stopped playing him bot as soon as he was reworked
KONO RUBICK DA19 votesnot true
after his first nerf he went to the jungle
Q mana cost was lower and damage was higher, he could waveclear at lvl 3 with little mana
Pale Pirate2 votesI think the reason they won't try to make him work in the bottom lane is that he'll instead end up crashing melees in the top lane too hard.
Only Play Darius6 votesHe was so strong botlane after his rework...
Oakleaf Ranger6 votesuntil people realized he couldn't do shit to the other laners as long they had a minion in between.
Elikain1 votesThat doesn't make him terrible. Sure, trading with someone in between other targets that stop his buckshot is bad enough but he scales insanely with crit and other usual Marksman items. Plus, his own passive makes him super tanky against physical damage so he can take a few hits to properly set up a fight. And Smoke Screen helps at making the enemy Marksman move out of their position.
Graves, in my opinion, shares the same problem with Morgana. She's still a mid lane mage with insane scaling but her kit, even though super strong on its own, is just not suited to fight mono on mono against the usual mid laners of today. So she's now considered a support, despite still being able to play mid with no problems whatsoever.
Looknook1 votesHis passive may give him great tank stats but it's difficult to get that passive stacked if he blows up too fast from being so short range.
I love Graves and have tried playing him ADC a couple of times. Even if I snowball lane phase having the only ADC on your team be so short range ends up feeling like a hindrance later in the game. And that only gets worse as opponents get more items.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesNop, i actually played adc graves a lot and his laning phase is the only problem
Looknook1 votesGotta get yourself an aggressive support like Leona, or a defensive support support like Soraka to enable you. Karma also works well because she can help make up for your lack of range while having good CC plus her Sheild.
Oakleaf Ranger1 votesMorgana has pretty mediocre scaling compared to most mages as you put it. She has a kit of a mage just not the numbers. Maybe before the first couple of nerfs was he still viable in the bot lane but not anymore.
Elikain1 votesThe only two abilities Morgana cares about (for her basic combo) are her Dark Binding (Q) and Tromented Soil (W). Her Q is 300 + 90% AP, her W's minimum total damage is 400 + 110% AP and is mostly considered as a waveclear tool or additional damage ability, if you hit someone with Q. Her ult is pretty scary, being able to deliver 600 + 140% AP damage for both the cast and second damage but that requires proper setup.
Her Black Shield, although not important in her damage dealing capabilities, is 350 + 70% AP. Her AP scaling is pretty high and her base damage is pretty high as well. But that's the thing. She isn't really reliable as a mid lane mage. Her kit works but it's pretty basic. A lot of champions can just stay out of her range and not get blown up or they are mobile enough that they don't have to worry about her Q. Someone like Zed and Talon can circumvent her E completely.
Her support role is mediocre because of her utility and high base damage but getting off her ult is reliant on Zhonya's rush. And even getting off her Q doesn't mean the enemy will surely die. Since Zyra, Lulu and Karma dominate bot lane currently, Morgana is even less effective against them (Q blocking/evading, E easily penetrated if not leveled).
I main Morgana so this is purely from my standpoint. Even if i know she's a decent mid laner, i don't generally take her there because there are simply better choices than her. If you look at her History on her lolwiki page, she did get some adjustments to her damage and mana costs (some minor stat adjustments as well) but that was purely because that particular time was when Morgana switched from being a mid laner to a support. Her last nerf was two years ago and it was a pretty minor one to Torrmented Soil. She hasn't been nerfed much in general.
Her old self VS her current self aren't that far apart in terms of damage. Her kit is just old, strong in the right places but in most situations, "unusable". That's pretty much it.
Oakleaf Ranger1 votesShe is good at learning the mid lane role but she has definitely seen better days. Pretty nasty in the bot lane though when paired with sivir.
Asayake 5150glow2 votes[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4hUfeOio,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-26T21:48:21.450+0000)
Compared to Jhin I mean.
If you see some outlaw with a fat shotgun you kinda expect him to just fire two rounds or so before having a lengthy reload, his insane damage justified by how slow he's to reload.
Yet that doesn't really translate into game.
Dunno, just my two cents, feels like Jhin is the only one out of these two to actually get an interesting ammo system.
Oh, btw, Graves isn't actually a marksman.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesOf course he is. Ranged that use a gun to deals damage = marksmen.
Venomar1 votesMarksman Implies a level of precision and efficiency of the point.
Shotgun, precision, shotgun precision.
Nah...
Regardless, just becuase he uses a gun and fits the archetype doesn't mean he plays like a league "Marksman". He's honestly closer to a battlemage/bruiser hybrid than he is any other Marksman.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesAs long as he uses a gun to deal damage, he is a marksmen. He is actually a bursty and a bit tankier marksmen but a marksmen still.
If you believe that much in the league archetype to call graves a battle mage then I have no idea what to tell you.
Deity Excalibur1 votesAs long as he uses a gun to deal damage, he is a marksmen. He is actually a bursty and a bit tankier marksmen but a marksmen still.
If you believe that much in the league archetype to call graves a battle mage then I have no idea what to tell you.
Jayce uses a gun to deal damage and yet he's not classified as a marksman, your definition is wrong. A marksman is someone able to output solid amount of DPS through basic hits reliably. Teemo is a marksman even though you can build him AP because he deals solid damage through basic hits. Jayce isn't a marksman because his damage comes from his combo rather than his basic hits. Graves is INDEED a marksman because his DPS comes from his basic hits.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesWell it is pretty much what I meant to say. I never thought Jayce was a mm and for the same reason you gave.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesOf course he is. Ranged that use a gun to deals damage = marksmen.
That's dumb.
Squishy, stays behind teammates while pumping out DPS = marksman.
LordOfTheLeague2 votesYeah no sorry he is just a different marksman from what you are talking about.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesWell, he has a point. In the last subclass list given by Riot, Graves is no longer included in the subclass "marksman". He is under "unique playstyle".
LordOfTheLeague1 votesYes because they don't really know how to name different subclasses for marksmen so they just put him in unique playstyle. He is obviously a marksmen with a more bursty and close fight playstyle that fit the jungler role and not bot Lane but that is still a marksman.
FYI he was even in the skirmisher subclass before that. It just shows how they don't really know what to do with such a hybrid burst tanky with good DPS champ.
If there are burst mage, I'd call him a burst marksman but I am not sure if it's cool enough.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesBy that definition, these champs are not marksmen:
Because no guns. :P
The actual definition of marksman is: ranged auto attack reliant damage dealer.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesOk you are right. Not guns but ranged weapons (and the champ need to use his weapon as a part of his damages)
TwitchInMyPants2 votesHave you tried laning with him against anyone ranged? I know he's a jungler primarily but just reduce his armor or something if that's what needs nerfed. He takes like a full second to reload without AS in your runes/masteries wheras any longer ranged champion is just going to fire a free shot into you. And he isn't Jhin who has comparible dmg skills to his autos to control creeps with. Playing both Jhin is honestly way easier to manage even if his reload is a bit longer usually, the reload time is compensated by powerful spells and a huge movespeed boost on last shot.
Citavista2 votesI'm pretty sure there's been situations where Graves has been killed off of a reload. The only reason Graves isn't completely OP is because of his ammo system capping his effective attack speed. Imagine Graves crits shooting as fast as any other ADCs. He can't because of the reload system, giving him a max of 3 shots in quick succession, but that third shot is pretty much only if you dash right into the enemy since Graves has pretty short range.
Big Ol Idiot Man2 votesI actually wish that Rito would experiment with moving all the Marksmen to an ammo system of some sort, suited directly to each of them.
Then they could make unique items that can interact with that ammo differently (charging the last shot fired, speeding up the reload, adding/subtracting rounds, etc.)
Idk, I think it could be cool. Could also suck.
PrinceOfStorms1 votesI think this is a good idea, but Riot should also make ranged AAs into skillshots too.
