With Liss new Passive let's talk about melee top laners

Mira Arya Enthe··65 votes·4,861 views

Liss new passive in testing seems like an awesome addition to her kit. I like it. But it brings up a problem. Because my friends who main top instantly thought "Oh shit Liss is now coming back to top lane. But now with empowered AAs that increase and increase her mana with every hit."

And that is a huge problem. But is it Lissandra's problem? No. Neither is it Quinn, Teemo or Rumble's fault you are so easy to harass out of lane. Immobile, melee champions with no ranged harass or CC are the problem.

Everyone says "Other mobas handle this fine!"

Well in the other MOBA I play, HotS, there are no champions like Morde, Garen or Mundo. If you are melee you have SOME form of laning tool and/or gap closer. Because how the fuck else is a melee meant to get in range?

And no. Not like Mundo's easily blocked and dodged cleaver slows. Like Arthas built in perma slows and ranged root. Like Sonya's leap and stun. Like Muradan's leap and stun.

There was a time in WoW Paladins were trash in PvP because unlike warriors they didn't have charge. Solution? Give them more movement speed utilities and RANGED CC.

So instead of talking about making Doran's manditory in those matchups or demanding 2/3rds the roster be made unranged or immobile stat sticks like your champion. Perhaps the immobile melees are the problem, not every other champion.

My suggestion? Immobile melees should get higher early HP regen. And more tools for gap closing like range CC, poke or Leaps/Dashes that make them more threatening to poke than a hornets nest. Because nerfing everyone else in the game so you can remain a slow moving wall of stats isn't going to happen. They aren't removing all mobile or ranged champs. And while fixing minion aggro would help and buffing Dorans shield would be okay. They don't fix the fundamental problem that if you are shorter range you need a method to make yourself in range. And if less mobile you need tools to bring the enemy to your level.

Darius and Illaoi are close to handling this well. This would be an ACTUAL fix and allow melees to go bot and perhaps even mid.

It's almost as if you cannot design a champion with limited range, then give them no tools to get within that range. But no, better blame every other class in the game.

With the best intentions. Mira Arya Enthe

181 Comments

ForgiveColour35 votes

I have no sympathy for people that plays draius morde illaoi and complains about range top laners

Ralanr3 votes

Illaoi you can dodge everything though.

Arakadia7 votes

I mean you can. You can also dodge all of Taliyah's damage and she got nerfed alot too.

Not at all to say Illaoi is OP, but dodging 4+ tentacles isn't exactly a simple task. And she has her autos unlike someone such as Xerath.

SteelMankind4 votes

The main thing you need to dodge is Illaoi E. If you do that, she'll be forced to ult you to avoid dying herself (as she has no disengage). Illaoi ult on a single target without an E spirit won't do enough damage to seriously hurt before you can just walk away.

Im Taylor Swift13 votes

Hell yeah, i main shen and got tired of the bullying and playing a survival laning phase, then i got to main quinn and i see several people who play that champs complain about her like poor thing you have to be bullied like you do to almost all of the melee toplaners.

Big Lincoln9 votes

playing a survival laning phase,

implying that Shen doesn't play like a pussy in every lane anyway

Sagan Forever15 votes

It is not his fault, rito decided that he had to do that to play for his ulti.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gJ52fdf,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2017-03-25T19:36:53.363+0000)

implying that Shen doesn't play like a pussy in every lane anyway

While true, it sort of sidesteps the point, which is that Juggernaut players are whiny pussies whose mascara starts running the moment they have to lane against a ranged champion who bullies them hard, but are fine with the fact that their class does it to almost every other melee champion.

Big Lincoln4 votes

but are fine with the fact that their class

not the whole class. Trundle Illaoi Darius Mordekaiser are the lane bullies, and I see Trundle more in the jungle now.

Nasus, Mundo, and Garen need to scale either with farm or levels, and Skarner, Olaf, Shyvana, Voli and Udyr are all primary junglers now.

Yorick is matchup-dependent but I'm never scared of him past level 2-3.

for almost all juggernauts I play I'd gladly trade early game power if it meant that I didn't need to be a suicide bomber late game

PermabannedGaren4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gJ52fdf,comment-id=000a0001000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-25T22:07:40.042+0000)

not the whole class. Trundle Illaoi Darius Mordekaiser are the lane bullies, and I see Trundle more in the jungle now.

Trundle is still more popular top.

Nasus, Mundo, and Garen need to scale either with farm or levels, and Skarner, Olaf, Shyvana, Voli and Udyr are all primary junglers now.

Nasus has his own problems but yes he doesn't bully lane.

Dr. Mundo doesn't bully melees because the champion is intentionally undertuned, though that isn't the main problem with the champion. The main problem is how his kit has so much inherent value in it (in the forms of damage and durability) that, if good, he can build full tank, making him even more safe, and still wreck house. The champion's design is faulty. He needs a rework.

Garen certainly bullies melee champions lol. Not to the extent of Darius, but his design is worse so he's kept deliberately weaker, in pretty much every respect. More to the point, Garen's damage in lane is also essentially unavoidable if you are melee, so he's not allowed to have good numbers early, and due to his kit he by design can't scale late.

Voli, Udyr, and Shyvana don't have kits that can effectively top lane so they are exempt from this yes.

Olaf is still a lane bully though. His level 1 all in is still the strongest in the game, and against melees who don't have sustain in particular is is very hard to trade with him. He's just not as good against tanks who can stack health and play safe, before outscaling him lane. He's a champion who seems designed to kill squishies and squishies alone, whereas Darius is more target-agnostic and is better top and better as a bully as a result.

Yorick is matchup-dependent but I'm never scared of him past level 2-3.

All champions are matchup-dependent, why even say that? When people call Renekton a lane bully, that comes with the caveat that Pantheon will shit on his breakfast and make him eat it in lane. Similarly, even Pantheon gets shit on by the Swains of the world. All champions have lane counters.

Yorick is a lane bully though. He beats most melees in lane, and unusually for a juggernaut can beat many ranged champions as well.

for almost all juggernauts I play I'd gladly trade early game power if it meant that I didn't need to be a suicide bomber late game

So would I, but juggernaut kits don't lend themselves well to a good late game, and the rest of the game should not change to make this come to pass. Juggernaut designs need to change.

DorkunedAuras17 votes

Honestly, most of the juggernauts are ok in this aspect. They can do something to gapclose or cause damage beyond AA range. They all have some minor ability to get them closer. Except Morde.

That special snowflake who's slow enough that he can't move properly. He needs something beyond sadness.

Big Lincoln9 votes

Mord has 2 ranged spells, though. Of the juggernauts, he's probably the least offended by ranged champions. Especially when he builds an item that gives him permaslows

Tychusfindlay91914 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, most of the juggernauts are ok in this aspect. They can do something to gapclose or cause damage beyond AA range. They all have some minor ability to get them closer. Except Morde.

That special snowflake who's slow enough that he can't move properly. He needs something beyond sadness.

The only PURE melee juggernauts in the game are udyr and and garen. They truly suffer the most. Garen moreso since he can't just go into jungle and farm it up as well as udyr.

DJMason882 votes

[deleted]

Tychusfindlay9195 votes

{quoted}

I thought juggernauts were classified as tanky damage dealers that could heal from their abilities, but traded this in for immobility and therefore being really easy to kite (Illaoi Darius DrMundo ) . I don't think you could put Udyr into a class, but im pretty sure Garen is a bruiser.

udyr is classified as a juggernaut buddy, take a look at the official subclass list

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

The only PURE melee juggernauts in the game are udyr and and garen. They truly suffer the most. Garen moreso since he can't just go into jungle and farm it up as well as udyr.

Garen's ult is ranged (xd) and Udyr's Bear Stance has a built in dash, so even then, it's a nope.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

Garen's ult is ranged (xd) and Udyr's Bear Stance has a built in dash, so even then, it's a nope.

Your attempt at being a smartass, although comical and therefore entertaining to me, more importantly makes you look like a bafoon.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Your attempt at being a smartass, although comical and therefore entertaining to me, more importantly makes you look like a bafoon.

It's more to show that nothing is truly completely melee.

I don't know how many times I've been fucked by Bear Stance's dash.

Deity Excalibur3 votes

{quoted}

It's more to show that nothing is truly completely melee.

I don't know how many times I've been fucked by Bear Stance's dash.

Udyr doesn't have a dash lol..

Sp33d Zer04 votes

Volibear cries in the corner.

Ralanr10 votes

Imo this is why I think Sion works so well. His E harass is great.

Big Lincoln9 votes

poke or Leaps/Dashes

So remove the most defining trait of the class? ?_? They wouldn't be immobile melees if they were mobile.

Lissandra and Rumble and Quinn are not just a problem for immobile melees; Lissandra especially shits on nearly every melee champion in the game when she's good or, god forbid, top tier.

I've always advocated for ranged CC on melee champions but ROYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET won't listen to me.

Like Arthas built in perma slows and ranged root.

Skarner had a permaslow. And he was cancer for it and dumpstered other melees harder than he did ranged champs.

Olaf has a potential permaslow if he plays well, but squishy carries throw a massive fit whenever he becomes prominent so don't expect to see him for extended periods of time

oops, submitted too early. What you should do for Juggernauts instead is give them innate tools to brush off or negate CC. Currently, as a carry class, they hate getting stunned and snared, but being melee they have no choice but to tank them and being immobile they don't have an easy time avoiding them. IMO it's also why they're crappy in 2v2 lanes; the ADC's endless poke is annoying, but it's when the support starts throwing their CC damage combos at you that it really gets shitty. Giving them the means to get past that hurdle would be a very good step to making them a more reasonable class.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Darius and Illoai work. Nasus almost works. They are still Juggernauts.

They need ways to deal with mobility and range. Or melee bot laners won't happen.

Big Lincoln11 votes

Illaoi works into melee champions; her entire kit except for Q gets dumpstered by ranged harass and DOT spells, if you have both then she's fucked.

Darius is also much better into melees, but the Quinn matchup I always felt was overrated.

You also have to consider that giving them any tools to combat ranged will be even more effective against other melees.

They need ways to deal with mobility and range. Or melee bot laners won't happen.

I don't have much issue with either of these in most cases. Besides Vel'Koz's stupid true damage ult and the ridiculous damage a couple of ADCs do from very long range, I can manage that fine even with Mordekaiser.

What is most detrimental to Juggernauts, beyond early laning, is being stun locked and dying before you get to do anything, because like all carry classes it completely shuts them down. We've seen Riot sort-of give them means to counter this recently. Mainly between Shyvana's CC immune dash letting her counter a disengage and Olaf's ult. Given that they're forced to tank those spells because they're melee and immobile, I think (some/most of them) should be able to outplay that with some conditional means of cleansing status effects.

I'm not opposed to giving them means to shut down mobility; if there were any class that Riot should be liberal about slapping the Grounded debuff onto, it's these guys.

Arakadia2 votes

So remove the most defining trait of the class? ?_? They wouldn't be immobile melees if they were mobile.

It might be necessary. Sorry but that trait makes their playstyle usually very black and white.

Big Lincoln2 votes

yeah, let's make the roster even more homogeneous, that'd solve its problems

Arakadia2 votes

If done right it would be better than the current problems.

Big Lincoln2 votes

yeah, and what do I do? i play these champs explicitly because i find champions with dashes to be boring and lazy

do I just uninstall because Riot decided to band-aid their game by giving everyone a dash?

Arakadia1 votes

First, I'm not saying delete all traces of a juggernaut. You don't have to give everyone a dash. No need for extremes.

Second, I'm sure you could find more than just juggernauts to play. Seems unlikely you only play League to play juggernauts.

And third, Juggernauts too often are just stat sticks with a very clear weakness. Its too black and white. Either they get in range and wreck house because of their stats, or they get kited into oblivion. I think Juggernauts should be a class in the game, but they shouldn't remain the way they are.

Big Lincoln2 votes

i play juggernauts and bard, no exceptions

Golden Tager X3 votes

Gapclosers in other mobas lul, League by far has the most mobility of any moba I have ever played.

AcidTheWarlock8 votes

I dunno, Smite is kind of there with every god having an escape and globals that last for >5s.

crippler386 votes

nononono

every god has cc, not an escape.

silly goose.

EDIT: I'm not even joking, every god in smite has some form of cc, at minimum a slow.

Sozan51 votes

Okay, let's list League champions that don't have any form of CC:

Mordekaiser Katarina Lucian MasterYi Nidalee Sivir

I believe that's it. Add to the fact that 3 of them are very mobile instead and the other 2 are runnin' really fast.

crippler382 votes

Indeed, cc is a very common thing in mobas.

JaxMoonStealer3 votes

This. There's also A LOT of CC immunity which isn't common in League in comparison.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

BS. Go play HotS. Every hero has a mobility spell except Arthas and Stitches who have ranged CC, ranged champions and a couple supports.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gJ52fdf,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-03-25T18:11:06.665+0000)

BS. Go play HotS. Every hero has a mobility spell except Arthas who has ranged CC and a couple supports.

But the mobility spells they do have are frankly worse than League's.

There is no HotS equivalent to Yasuo, Riven, LeBlanc, or Fiora except for perhaps Tracer. Even Tryndamere would be a mobile hero by the standards of HotS.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Illidan Tracer Li Ming Lunara

To a lesser extent Falstad Grey Mane

HotS also has 1/4th as many champions.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gJ52fdf,comment-id=0009000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T21:53:34.287+0000)

Illidan

His dashes are very short-ranged save for his ults. His Q is also point and click. He's one of the more mobile heroes, but as mobile as LeBlanc, Katarina, or Riven? Neh. Hell, he's not even as mobile as Tryndamere. Tryndamere's sole mobility spell's very short cooldown when combined with CDR and crit makes him even stickier to a single target than Illidan.

Tracer

Covered.

Li Ming

So this hero literally just has one relatively short range blink. Her mobility is like a poor man's Kassadin. Not nearly as mobile as some of the assassins we have.

Lunara

I'm actually a little less familiar with Lunara. Isn't her main big mobility spell one of her ults?

HotS also has 1/4th as many champions.

Not sure I see the relevance tbh. HotS might one day have more champions with big boy mobility like some of League's, but as of now I don't think they do.

I actually do agree with the point of the thread though. As someone who has been known to play some juggernauts it is laughable how people think that Garen should just be allowed to win games by virtue of big numbers, and anything that keeps him from doing this is toxic.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Lunara is permanently leaping and has permanently enhanced movement speed.

Also keep in mind that HotS also has mounts of map mobility, these spells are reserved only for escape, dodging, chase or flanking.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gJ52fdf,comment-id=000900010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T22:03:12.981+0000)

Lunara is permanently leaping and has permanently enhanced movement speed.

Also keep in mind that HotS also has mounts of map mobility, these spells are reserved only for escape, dodging, chase or flanking.

I'll take your word on that, because I honestly do not know. Lunara is conceptually BORING, so I never had any interest in playing her.

That's true, though I feel like HotS maps are also larger than SR. I could be full of shit on that though.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Not even close, even unmounted you can cross most in a 10-20 seconds. A couple are about the same size or slightly smaller but most are much smaller.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gJ52fdf,comment-id=00090001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T22:11:45.385+0000)

Not even close, even unmounted you can cross most in a 10-20 seconds. A couple are about the same size or slightly smaller but most are much smaller.

I frankly don't believe you tbh. Ten to twenty seconds? No way.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Several maps only have two lanes and are TT size. Most three lane maps are only mildly bigger. Some are pretty big and would take longer, but these are exceptions like Inferno Shrines and Sky Temple.

DJMason888 votes

Yes, but League also has the highest number of heroes/champions/gods/whatevertheyarecalledinothermobas. Also, in 2 very popular MOBAs, (Smite and Dota 2) you can buy mobility. Sure, league has flash, on a five minute cooldown, and has very short range.

The Scout Girl15 votes

and so ? mobility in pvp videogames is normal dunkeyface . only lol has this dumb anti mobile anti range propaganda spread by angry players of bad design melees .

agbudar4 votes

ehm have you played ilidan? thats 1 skill shot 1 targetted an ult like galio and he reduces his cd's with aa's (and he is a fast attacker)

Hige1 votes

remember that Range is a stat and you can increase other stats in order to make the situation more balanced, in the case of juggernauts, they have better defensive stats and more movement speed, of course there's always orbwalking but I present to you a case where the balace tips over towards melee users:

Flash in

Once melees are on top of you, your death is almost certain, Garen will spin and you'll get hit by every tick of damage, you could flash out I guess but tbh the whole thing feels very unfair, just because a melee has a hard time closing the gap it shouldn't mean that when he manages to do so it's game over.

I think that there should be a trade in stats and there should also be inherent counters, for example, Lissandra seems to be a good counter against Garen and that's fine, but maybe the likes of Wukong or Master yi fare well enough against liss

Big Lincoln12 votes

just because a melee has a hard time closing the gap it shouldn't mean that when he manages to do so it's game over.

yes it should, wtf

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