Why do resourceless champions even exist?

Warlord Rhinark·May 15, 2018·11 votes·5,854 views

No, I'm not talking about these:

I'm talking about these:

Why the hell do these guys get (almost) all their stuff, practically for free?

Note 1: I have included champions that use health as a resource because let's be honest here. They all have some way to heal themselves. They get it practically for free.

Note 2: I have included champions that use Fury and Ferocity as a resource because both of them doesn't gate the amount of abilities the champion can cast. In fact, it STRENGTHENS the abilities that they cast whilst STILL being completely free.

Note 3: I have excluded Rumble because if he actually spams his abilities, there's a cost (he gets silenced).

71 Comments

IcyPepperMay 15, 20186 votes

Do you really think they take those champions and just slap on "resourceless" without any consequence? It's a part of their power budget and they're balanced around it.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20185 votes

Could you perhaps explain in greater detail? I'd like to know more about what you think.

ModWulf HelhammerMay 15, 20187 votes

Take Katarina.

Her play pattern is built around spamming spells and hopping around getting jump resets. You add a mana gate, one of 3 things happen:

You make her so weak, she's practically nonexistent in the game (don't change anything, just give her mana)
Make her mana costs so low, she'd essentially not have them, except now she can build mana items that make her stronger
Make each individual ability strong enough to justify a heavy mana cost

None of those are good results.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20184 votes

While I will agree that the first result is almost objectively bad, I don't see the problem with the other two.

If her mana costs are low, she wouldn't have a reason to buy mana items because she almost never runs out of it. Besides, it's not like she can't buy items with mana on them ATM.

And I don't see how making each ability strong enough to justify a mana cost is bad.

Isn't that what Riot does with champions that currently use mana? They make it strong so it ACTUALLY makes sense to have mana?

I could use the argument "All champions should be resourceless because if we give them mana costs we actually have to make their abilities strong"

ModWulf HelhammerMay 15, 20184 votes

Each outcome results in a completely different Katarina which is not what she's intended to be. And even if she didn't have high mana costs, items like Archangels are viable, and things like Luden's become good items on her again without wasting gold.

A strong ability with a mana cost also has to have a high cooldown, which again, is antithesis to what she's supposed to be.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20183 votes

Well what about champions like Ziggs?

His Q deals a lot of damage and has a high mana cost but it's not like it has a high cooldown or anything.

Z3SleeperMay 15, 20183 votes

Range. Waveclear. Same for every other mage.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20182 votes

So mages in general are just the exception to the rule "A strong ability with a mana cost also has to have a high cooldown"?

That doesn't make any sense.

Z3SleeperMay 15, 20182 votes

Yes

SwiftKitten88May 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Do you really think they take those champions and just slap on "resourceless" without any consequence? It's a part of their power budget and they're balanced around it.

Garen Yasuo Katarina Riven ... ummm yes??

IcyPepperMay 15, 20181 votes

It's a part of their power budget and they're balanced around it

SwiftKitten88May 15, 20181 votes

Yasuo

balanced?

[sg-miss-fortune]

IcyPepperMay 15, 20181 votes

Ya got me there

[sg-lulu]

Automated RivenMay 15, 20185 votes

Do you really want riven to have Mana? And the resulted massively buffed abilities so she can function with Mana? Does anyone want that?

ModKnightsKemplarMay 15, 20184 votes

I mean, it's a balance lever, just like anything else. It clearly communicates to the opponent that this champ isn't mana gated; spam is part of their playstyle.

I think the best example to defend that point is actually Riven. You can't make a character like Riven if she has mana. She relies so heavily on being able to spam her Q that she wouldn't even be the same champion without it. It's been a point of contention, especially at low elos, since the dawn of League. Fact is, though, that these characters add interesting variety to the champ roster.

Their abilites are balanced around the fact that they are spammable. It kind of silly to act like Riven spamming Q is anything like Xerath being able to do that. They are totally different abilities with totally different power levels.

Riven is a cool champ. She adds something to the game. And she can't exist with mana. I'm not going to go through the entire champ list you posted and explain to you why each one needs to be that way, because I don't actually think they do. I think some do, and that's the answer to your question in the title. That's why resourceless champs exist.

Vanilla AddictMay 15, 20182 votes

But think of how weak some of those champions would be if they did have some sort of mana gate to them. Katarina would probably have to recall back every few seconds in lane if she did have mana.

Vanilla AddictMay 15, 20183 votes

Also her passive reset. By the time she uses all her abilities and gets her reset, she would probably have run out of mana and not be able to do anything. She would be like a hit and run champion except, you won’t be able to run because you’re out of mana. If she did have mana, her whole kit would have to be reworked to match the mana play style.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20186 votes

Well.

That would add more depth to the whole "In and out" kind of playstyle. You would have to think carefully and watch your resources before you go in.

Now you can just "Oh I just get shit for free lemme just go in whenever I feel like it without having to worry about anything"

Vanilla AddictMay 15, 20183 votes

She can still get cc’d, right? Her shunpo also only resets on kill or dagger. I don’t know, lol, I don’t play Katarina very often to know all about her. And as Krol had just said, she’s a spam ability type of champion. Also, what’s the point of having the reset if you’re gonna run out of mana before you can use it?

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20186 votes

ALL champions can be cc'd. You can just say "Oh, cc is stronger on someone that doesn't use mana" because cc is EXACTLY as strong on someone like Katarina as it is on someone like Vel'koz.

And saying "Oh, she's a spam champion so she should have everything for free" doesn't really make much sense.

Gangplank is a spam champion but his Q isn't free.

Hecarim is a spam champion but his Q isn't free.

Karthus is a spam champion but his Q isn't free.

Pantheon is a spam champion but his Q isn't free.

Ryze is a spam champion but his Q isn't free.

Udyr is a spam champion but his kit isn't free.

Ziggs is a spam champion but his Q isn't free.

And you can't just say "Oh, she has a reset. If she had mana she would ALWAYS run out of mana after she gets it off"

You're making it sound like Katarina players doesn't know how to manage mana.

Here's some (kinda bad) examples of champions with resets that cost mana:

Darius has a reset that costs mana (Until he hits level 16).

Irelia has a reset that costs mana (albeit, not much I'll admit).

Ryze has a reset that costs mana (Again, not exactly much since he already builds so much mana)

Master Yi has a reset that costs mana.

Zilean has a reset that costs mana.

FrostlySparkMay 15, 20182 votes

But the thing is, Katarina uses spells arguably more than any champion. If you were to give her a resource to manage, it would either not really change much because her spells would have low costs, or completely murder her. The champions you listed has a reset on one skill, however, katarina gets constant resets throughout the entirety of her kit allowing her to jump to target to target. You're suggesting that katarina goes in, uses abilities to take out a target, runs oom, and then what?

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20184 votes

I didn't suggest she goes oom at all.

Everytime I say Katarina should have mana costs, people always think I'm talking up in the hundreds and her mana bar's only at 400.

"OmFG kaTArInA GoEs iN GeT'S REsEt nOw sHe'S oUt oF MaNa wHat dO?"

Like calm down.

FrostlySparkMay 15, 20181 votes

Then whats the point of her having mana in the first place bro? She's very clearly balanced around the concept of being a manaless champion. If you're suggesting that she has mana and doesnt run oom after a couple of resets, or at all as you say, there's no point...

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20181 votes

I guess so.

BLACK REALM GODMay 15, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-15T06:54:02.731+0000)

Well.

That would add more depth to the whole "In and out" kind of playstyle. You would have to think carefully and watch your resources before you go in.

Now you can just "Oh I just get shit for free lemme just go in whenever I feel like it without having to worry about anything"

not true. they're still gated by cooldown timers. once a cooldown timer is so low it cant get any lower. cooldown reduction is based on percentages. 90 percent of 3 is 2.7. 90% of 100 is 90.

so not only does not having mana reduce the efficiency of all items with mana, but it also reduces the efficiency of cooldown reduction and the overall stat jumps of items in general. it honestly puts a funnel on champions that otherwise wouldnt have a reliable balancing mechanic.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20185 votes

Not having mana reduces the efficiency of cooldown reduction?

I disagree.

More cooldown reduction = more spells.

No mana = spells without consequence.

BLACK REALM GODMay 15, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=00010000000000020000,timestamp=2018-05-15T08:08:37.722+0000)

Not having mana reduces the efficiency of cooldown reduction?

I disagree.

More cooldown reduction = more spells.

No mana = spells without consequence.

it's fine to disagree, but realistically speaking manaless champions have a tendency to have spells on <10 second cooldowns for everything except their R. and why get cooldown reduction for just one ability when you could instead get pure damage, penetration, defenses, or mobility on a better item?

if karthus was manaless he'd be the same as he is now, without the huge damage spike he gets from archangel staff. mana for the most part is associated with mages for thematic purposes.

Critmaster GarenMay 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-15T06:54:02.731+0000)

Well.

That would add more depth to the whole "In and out" kind of playstyle. You would have to think carefully and watch your resources before you go in.

Now you can just "Oh I just get shit for free lemme just go in whenever I feel like it without having to worry about anything"

resourceless or not. you cant just spam your abilities on most of those champions. it opens you up to engages. due to cooldown windows.

what is a garen going to do to you in the 9 seconds his q and spin is are on cooldown? nothing.

plus, even after the most recent mid lane mage nerfs, early game mana management doesnt really exist as long as this exists. item 2033

after a couple mana items, its almost entirely meaningless as a resource.

HàrrowRMay 15, 20182 votes

Well i think the problem is you're used to her not having mana,imagine if Ryze didn't have mana,you could just argue the same thing,oh well if he had mana he'd run out very fast cause he spams his abilities a lot,but its not the case,Kata with item 3285 item 3040 would be able to spam all day

420 gramsMay 15, 20182 votes

Aatrox has to use health, a very valuable resource. Mundos abilities cost health, which is the most important reasource you have. Garens kit involves outstaining in lane (think about his passive and strong trades) so being resourceless fits Gnar has a secondary bar already and has to manage rage, which is similar to managing energy. Kat has many resets which Forces her to use her abilities multiple times to he effective. This style means mana costs would either be way to harsh or so low there's no point in having mana anyway. Mordekaiser: see Gnar Rek sai: see Gnar Reneketon: see Gnar and Garen Rengar: see Gnar Riven: see Katarina Tryndamere: see Gnar Vlad: see Gnar Yasuo: op overloaded kit

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20182 votes

(I already included a note in the post telling why I don't think champions using health is a "disadvantage").

Aatrox: The only ability that actually costs health for him is his E and it only costs 30 health. To counter this, his W heals him.

Mundo: Yes, his abilities cost health. But both his passive, his Q AND his ult heals him to counter this.

Garen: Yeah I guess so.

Gnar: I disagree. Energy gates the amount of abilities you can cast. Rage only changes what abilities you can cast. There's no "objective" disadvantage to spamming abilities with Gnar.

Kat: Yeah that's the same argument everyone else comes with so I guess I'll have to agree.

Mordekaiser: What? A shield? Really? You can't just say Mordekaiser's shield bar is the same as managing energy.

Rek'sai: It's literally only benefits to her already existing abilities. It doesn't gate anything. Therefore I wouldn't call it the same as managing an energy bar.

Renekton: Yeah Garen thing makes sense but you still can't just say Fury is the same as managing an energy bar because it's not.

Rengar: Okay this is stupid. Rengar's Ferocity bar is LITERALLY only benefits. It's not the same as managing energy.

Riven: Yeah yeah.

Tryndamere: Still disagree. It's not the same as managing an energy bar because there's no inherent disadvantages.

Vlad: How the fuck can you call this the same as "managing an energy bar"? It's not even a resource. It's just visual for the amount of stacks of Transfusion you need before you get Crimson Rush. They could literally just have showed this with a small tooltip icon with numbers on it.

Yasuo: Fuck Yasuo.

I don't see you give explanations for Kled, Shyvana or Zac so I'm guessing you also think they should be gated by something unless you can come up with some explanations.

Chembaron YamadaMay 15, 20181 votes

The point about Gnar is the same for Kled, they already explained why Kled doesn't have mana.

The reason is: it would be clustered. Kled has to keep an eye on his seperated health bar for Skaarl and if he is dismounted, he has to keep track of his courage bar.

They didn't want to give him the burden of keeping his attention on another bar with mana.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20181 votes

I didn't actually know that Riot said that. Thanks for pointing it out.

But you still didn't give an explanation for Shyvana nor Zac.

BarleyMay 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-05-15T08:47:31.648+0000)

(I already included a note in the post telling why I don't think champions using health is a "disadvantage").

Aatrox: The only ability that actually costs health for him is his E and it only costs 30 health. To counter this, his W heals him.

Mundo: Yes, his abilities cost health. But both his passive, his Q AND his ult heals him to counter this.

Garen: Yeah I guess so.

Gnar: I disagree. Energy gates the amount of abilities you can cast. Rage only changes what abilities you can cast. There's no "objective" disadvantage to spamming abilities with Gnar.

Kat: Yeah that's the same argument everyone else comes with so I guess I'll have to agree.

Mordekaiser: What? A shield? Really? You can't just say Mordekaiser's shield bar is the same as managing energy.

Rek'sai: It's literally only benefits to her already existing abilities. It doesn't gate anything. Therefore I wouldn't call it the same as managing an energy bar.

Renekton: Yeah Garen thing makes sense but you still can't just say Fury is the same as managing an energy bar because it's not.

Rengar: Okay this is stupid. Rengar's Ferocity bar is LITERALLY only benefits. It's not the same as managing energy.

Riven: Yeah yeah.

Tryndamere: Still disagree. It's not the same as managing an energy bar because there's no inherent disadvantages.

Vlad: How the fuck can you call this the same as "managing an energy bar"? It's not even a resource. It's just visual for the amount of stacks of Transfusion you need before you get Crimson Rush. They could literally just have showed this with a small tooltip icon with numbers on it.

Yasuo: Fuck Yasuo.

I don't see you give explanations for Kled, Shyvana or Zac so I'm guessing you also think they should be gated by something unless you can come up with some explanations.

Almost all of these champions already have a secondary bar. Im only going to talk about Zac, Gnar, and Kled to give better examples. Zac, you have to think. How much mana are they going to make his E and R cost? 250 mana for E at rank 3? How bout no. Zac could be converted to a mana champ, but that just wouldnt fit him. And, mana cost. I can talk bout Gnar alot cause Im a Gnar main. Anyways, this little/big dude already has a resource bar! Rage! Gnar has to keep track of his rage, which can be frusturating at times because you dont want to transform, so you have to stay out of combat for a while to stay mini. Also, mini Gnar doesnt have an actual ult. Now, if you add mana, would Gnar still be able to transform, and have two bars? Or would you gut his rage. If gutting rage is your choice, would Gnar now stay in mega or stay in mini? Youre gonna run into alot of problems with that. For Kled, re read Gnar until it makes sense.

Z3SleeperMay 15, 20185 votes

Aatrox W costs health. He has to choose between healing or damage.

Mundo Qs don’t heal, they refund on hit. His W costs a ton of health early on, that’s how it’s gated. He isn’t gated by these costs after level 6, when laning is over since his target access is pretty bad.

Gnar’s rage actually gates him. He can’t ranged harass as mega gnar (besides q which he’ll have to go pick up).

Morde has very real health costs. His W does not completely refund them at all (on minions).

Rek Sai isn’t endlessly harassing with heavily abusive abilities. Target access and risk is why this diver is manaless. Look at another diver, Jarvan, he can poke HEAVILY with Q and deny trade damage with W. Thus, mana gated.

Renekton. Long. Looong cooldowns.

Rengar, Riven, Kled, Shyvanna and Tryndamere are gated by target accessibility and/or heavy risk involved (no escape once spells are used to get in and they need to use them to get in) and/or cooldowns and/or target access. Fizz for example has mana because he can dash twice in a rotation (in and out).

Vlad has very real health costs as well. That W is hefty and his E’s cost is enough to make you use it sparingly (in lane anyway). Post-lane he is gated by his lack of mobility and short range.

Zac has to actively retrieve his blobs which isn’t easy in a laning or teamfight scenario, in which case every spell cast is dealing 4% current health damage to him.

Examples of why people have mana costs despite above mentioned drawbacks:

Udyr: obnoxious bear stance/turtle stance spam. Gates his mobility and his clear efficiency.

Olaf: those axes hurt. W grants insane healing, mana gates his jg sustain and clear speed.

Mages: long range, usually spammable, ranged waveclear. If it was infinite it’d be a mess.

Talon: W waveclear and poke gating. Q heal gating. Ult has a high cost due to how impactful it is which is compensated with a lower cooldown.

Master Yi: obnoxious laner if alpha and meditate had no mana costs. Already has high cooldowns as well, making them higher to compensate for manaless would be ridiculous.

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20181 votes

Aatrox: His W no longer costs health since patch 7.5

Mundo: Yeah I meant his Q is refund but since the refund is affect by Revitalize and Spirit Visage I count it as "healing".

Morde: If you max his W, his healing is insane. Plus, he gets a shield for atleast double the amount of health he actually spend.

Rek'sai: Yeah Rek'sai might have been a bad example. Especially considering how she hasn't been meta in a long time.

Renekton: Yeah I guess so.

Riven: Has easy escape with E aswell as the relatively low cooldown on Q.

Kled: Can escape with second use of E.

Tryndamere: Gets cdr on E for crits.

Vlad: His Q heals for a fuck ton so I wouldn't say he has "very real" health costs. I will also disregard the whole "lack of mobility" thing since every Vladimir ever takes item 3152 summoner 6 summoner 4 and maybe even the new item 3907

Zac: When you think about it, 4% isn't really much of a "cost" when you think about how strong his abilities are (Except for W I guess)

Olaf: Axes with one skill point put into it is shit. How many people do you see maxing Q on Olaf first?

Mages: Understandable.

L RayquazaMay 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=0002000000020000,timestamp=2018-05-15T13:09:50.171+0000)

Kled: Can escape with second use of E.

You can't choose which direction you dash with second E, you gotta dash back to the first enemy you hit, and you cant even dash if Skaarl decides to nope the fuck off

Z3SleeperMay 15, 20181 votes

Ikr i giggled at that one lol. E2 is for following dashes/blinks after the initial E.

Z3SleeperMay 15, 20181 votes

Vlad takes those items and summoners to compensate for his lack of mobility.

Why do you think Vlad doesn’t take a damage keystone and instead uses SS?

Also Vlad’s Q doesn’t constantly top him off every wave. It takes multiple minion waves of never using W or E to finally regain all your lost health if your opponent doesn’t let you land crimson rush on them.

Olaf level 1 axes are shit? BOI! They have an ungodly mana cost for a reason. It does a ton of damage on almost no cooldown if u pick it up AND is an extremely potent slow.

Aatrox i think just never shoulda had mana costs in the first place. He doesn’t really do anything to warrant them. Imo he’s in the same boat as Rek Sai. His lane sustain is nowhere near obnoxious. If you ever play Aatrox you’re gonna have to get used to being shoved out of lane alot early since he doesn’t really have the tools to outplay and relies on his opponent letting him heal up with his rather pathetic early healing.

Pika FoxMay 15, 20181 votes

I love how you give proper explanations for kat, but then call yas's kit "op and overloaded". No, hes meamt to spam e constantly and his q is meant to be treated as an auto attack. Having mana for 1 ability and an ult makes no sense.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMay 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-05-15T13:50:49.331+0000)

I love how you give proper explanations for kat, but then call yas's kit "op and overloaded". No, hes meamt to spam e constantly and his q is meant to be treated as an auto attack. Having mana for 1 ability and an ult makes no sense.

its his passives

Pika FoxMay 15, 20181 votes

His passive rewarss him for playing well and pubishes his enemies for not prioritizing him properly.

The double crit is also entirely fine; it shoestrings him into being forced to be less tanky as someone who is melee.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMay 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-15T15:24:59.753+0000)

His passive rewarss him for playing well and pubishes his enemies for not prioritizing him properly.

The double crit is also entirely fine; it shoestrings him into being forced to be less tanky as someone who is melee.

His flow shield could be done better like changing it to just reduce the CD on W and extending the unbuffed W CD. That way his passive is less hand holdy

Z3SleeperMay 15, 20182 votes

Cooldown gating. There’s ways to gate a champion other than via mana.

Most of these champs function by blowing their load then waiting for longish cooldowns or just have very limited target access to justify it.

MordepoolMay 15, 20181 votes

Hey. Mordekaiser , Vladimir & DrMundo

Use Health as a resource. It's a resource

Grievous wounds is a thing. Making it not free

Warlord RhinarkMay 15, 20182 votes

If we completely ignore the healing in their kits:

Mordekaiser get's a shield that's pretty much double the health he actually spend.

Vlad gets temporary untargetability.

And Mundo... Well... He's kinda fucked without the healing.

MordepoolMay 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Zs6Fpcl,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-05-15T15:48:59.584+0000)

If we completely ignore the healing in their kits:

Mordekaiser get's a shield that's pretty much double the health he actually spend.

That's conditional on hitting something and 80% of that will disappear in less than 3 seconds Also Immobile & short range