Marksmen's basic gameplay pattern has low counterplay

Critkeeper·Oct 18, 2017·10 votes·517 views

Thats why we had to have other classes with even less counterplay in order to deal with them, like burst mages, assassins, and the old era of DPS bruisers (season 2 atmogs).

One at a time each class that had less counterplay than marksmen were bopped out of the game, and here we are with nothing left to keep them in check.

So that leaves us with one of two choices:

Rework marksmen at the fundamental level to intrinsically have similar counterplay as every other class
Realize marksmen gate the fairness of the rest of the game, and reduce the counterplay of the classes you've spent all these years reworking.

17 Comments

MungoGeriOct 18, 20172 votes

You can't deal damage if you're dead. The counterplay to adcs is to kill them. The counterplay to that is to protect them with supports and tanks. There's a rock-paper-scissors situation going on here. If you have too many squishy champs, you'll get run over no matter how much damage those squishies can theoretically deal. I was just in an aram game with a kind of normal team comp (mix of tanks and damage dealers) against 4 adc's and a Braum. We just destroyed them. It wasn't even close.

CritkeeperOct 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

You can't deal damage if you're dead. The counterplay to adcs is to kill them. The counterplay to that is to protect them with supports and tanks. There's a rock-paper-scissors situation going on here. If you have too many squishy champs, you'll get run over no matter how much damage those squishies can theoretically deal. I was just in an aram game with a kind of normal team comp (mix of tanks and damage dealers) against 4 adc's and a Braum. We just destroyed them. It wasn't even close.

that is faulty reasoning

marksmen are no MORE vulnerable to death than anyone else-- no class can do anything if dead

marksmen might be more vulnerable to DYING because they are squishy but that is another matter entirely-- being squishy vs having to be in melee range to do anything but being tanky is just a tradeoff; generally both make you effectively resistant to dying.

death as the primary form of counterplay doesn't lead to very interesting (or fair) games, and that is why RIOT has been reworking so many classes to get rid of this kind of prevailing form of counterplay.

undesirable teamOct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

that is faulty reasoning

marksmen are no MORE vulnerable to death than anyone else-- no class can do anything if dead

marksmen might be more vulnerable to DYING because they are squishy but that is another matter entirely-- being squishy vs having to be in melee range to do anything but being tanky is just a tradeoff; generally both make you effectively resistant to dying.

death as the primary form of counterplay doesn't lead to very interesting (or fair) games, and that is why RIOT has been reworking so many classes to get rid of this kind of prevailing form of counterplay.

cant counterplay/kill this: Janna / Lulu summoner 7 item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 3222 item 3109 LUL

MungoGeriOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted} marksmen are no MORE vulnerable to death than anyone else-- no class can do anything if dead

This statement is countered by almost any in-game experience. Of course ADC's are more vulnerable than other champions. In order to fulfill their damage dealing role, they almost always focus on offensive items and typically ADC's have very weak crowd control. There's nothing more vulnerable than an ADC who is alone. Even supports who are caught out usually have enough crowd control abilities to get away. Any solo ADC can be taken down easily by assassins, tanks, and most mages. ADC's are only really strong when they're surrounded by other characters who can peel attackers off them or keep them alive while they're cc'd.

AhrisOct 18, 20173 votes

{quoted}

You can't deal damage if you're dead. The counterplay to adcs is to kill them. The counterplay to that is to protect them with supports and tanks. There's a rock-paper-scissors situation going on here. If you have too many squishy champs, you'll get run over no matter how much damage those squishies can theoretically deal. I was just in an aram game with a kind of normal team comp (mix of tanks and damage dealers) against 4 adc's and a Braum. We just destroyed them. It wasn't even close.

But you cant kill them, so there goes the only counterplay.

MungoGeriOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

But you cant kill them, so there goes the only counterplay.

Why are you unable to kill them? They're the squishiest champs in the game. Get any kind of cc on them and they're toast. The only way ADCs survive is if they're protected by their team.

The OasisOct 18, 20172 votes

It seems to me that rather than low counterplay, marksman itemization is just too good and hyper-carries need to have their early-mid game power toned down. Possibly a bit of the reverse too. Pre-marksman rework, ADCs had pretty pronounced windows of power. Corki and Ezreal were gods early-mid but struggled to shred tanks in the late game. Trist and Cait were strong early, very weak mid-game, and strong late. The rework smoothed power curves across the board, but always in an upward direction so that you get champs like Kog and Twitch power spiking at 1 item.

ZT XperimentorOct 18, 20171 votes

Spot on, too bad riot won't admit it was a mistake.

MungoGeriOct 18, 20172 votes

This is definitely more constructive. An even better solution would be to improve the items of other types of characters in the same way and let people make meaningful choices.

wyvern011976Oct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This is definitely more constructive. An even better solution would be to improve the items of other types of characters in the same way and let people make meaningful choices.

They have meaningful choice...bad players just don't make them. They keep buying damage when they need to tank or gain mobility. Do not know how many times someone complains about an adc melting them or getting ganked repeatedly, but then you look at their items and THEY DONT EVEN HAVE BOOTS but have rushed a damage item. There is no counter play for stupidity or being bad.
Team supportive items like knights vow are not bought by non supports like they sometimes should be. Most importantly the item called "Control Ward" is not purchased enough.

Sad thing about itemization is at low elos the ADCs dont even buy QSS or Murc Scim. So if you cant lock them down its a bad team comp with too many wanna be carries and no cc or you have itemized poorly.

wyvern011976Oct 18, 20171 votes

Apparently no one understands positioning and how to back away in this game. ADCs are one of the easiest classes to outplay period. Try any the following:

Don't dive an ADC in the middle of their team.
Don't try to 1v2 an ADC and Support.
Back away if you are being kited instead of trying to close to melee range.
Get better at champ selection. Most games are won there. 4 Wanna be carries on a team loses. You need 2-3 carries and the others play much more supportive roles. So if you are last picking a carry top or carry jungle made out of paper and build damage after your team has an ADC and a APC you deserve to lose. You could have counter played by taking a better team supportive champ.
Check your EGO at the door and learn to assess risk/reward. You are not going to hard carry most games so stop trying to and feeding the enemy ADC with terrible engages that lead to you dying and your team losing the subsequent 4v5.
Learn to back away from bad fights.
God forbid you buy a resistance item instead of a damage item.
This list goes on.......
The list goes on forever. If you are having issues with ADCs why are you not helping your ADC defeat their team? Because the whiny kids on here aren't upset ADCs do damage. They are upset because they play another role (namely APC/Assassin/ Carry Top) and THEY are not the ones at the center of the fights and going 20/0.

This is much more an EGO issue than game issue. Because I can guarantee you if you have vision control, understand positioning, and monitor cds you will find a whole lot of counter play.

AuurunOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Apparently no one understands positioning and how to back away in this game. ADCs are one of the easiest classes to outplay period. Try any the following:

Don't dive an ADC in the middle of their team.

Don't try to 1v2 an ADC and Support.

Back away if you are being kited instead of trying to close to melee range.

Get better at champ selection. Most games are won there. 4 Wanna be carries on a team loses. You need 2-3 carries and the others play much more supportive roles. So if you are last picking a carry top or carry jungle made out of paper and build damage after your team has an ADC and a APC you deserve to lose. You could have counter played by taking a better team supportive champ.

Check your EGO at the door and learn to assess risk/reward. You are not going to hard carry most games so stop trying to and feeding the enemy ADC with terrible engages that lead to you dying and your team losing the subsequent 4v5.

Learn to back away from bad fights.

God forbid you buy a resistance item instead of a damage item.

This list goes on.......
The list goes on forever. If you are having issues with ADCs why are you not helping your ADC defeat their team? Because the whiny kids on here aren't upset ADCs do damage. They are upset because they play another role (namely APC/Assassin/ Carry Top) and THEY are not the ones at the center of the fights and going 20/0.

This is much more an EGO issue than game issue. Because I can guarantee you if you have vision control, understand positioning, and monitor cds you will find a whole lot of counter play.

Most if not all of this is not a counterplay IMO. It's just playing to a class weaknesses, counterpick or counterbuild. It's not an EGO issue. ADC are in fact to reliable. If other champions got reworked because of lacking counterplay (even tho using your method I could make them seems like counterplay ideals) then marksmen should to.

wyvern011976Oct 19, 20171 votes

Umm.. that's THE DEFINITION of counter play. lol When you play around a weakness. And yes EGO is 90% of the issue with the people i see get melted. It shows in their champ select, positioning, item builds, and especially their board posts. They want to carry and if they cant with their pick they think something is wrong with the game. They want to be able to delete fed champs when they are behind. They want to be able to move anywhere on the map and not be punished. They want to rush damage instead of vision and resistances. Then they come to boards whining and when you review their game data it is literally 90% of the time the same issues and its because their egos wont let them PLAY LIKE THEY PART OF A TEAM. They don't help with vision, they don't stay in position with the team, they don't epitomize to support the team composition, they take bad engages, and they play garbage tier or paper thin champs. ADCs have been reworked many times and ae working as intended. Maybe some people don't get it but they are the main catalyst to end team fights and end games. They do that with consistent damage. Other wise team fights will never end and the games would take 60 minutes.

For god sakes people learn to back off a fed adc. You just did the most important counter play you can do.

AuurunOct 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Umm.. that's THE DEFINITION of counter play. lol When you play around a weakness. And yes EGO is 90% of the issue with the people i see get melted. It shows in their champ select, positioning, item builds, and especially their board posts. They want to carry and if they cant with their pick they think something is wrong with the game. They want to be able to delete fed champs when they are behind. They want to be able to move anywhere on the map and not be punished. They want to rush damage instead of vision and resistances. Then they come to boards whining and when you review their game data it is literally 90% of the time the same issues and its because their egos wont let them PLAY LIKE THEY PART OF A TEAM. They don't help with vision, they don't stay in position with the team, they don't epitomize to support the team composition, they take bad engages, and they play garbage tier or paper thin champs. ADCs have been reworked many times and ae working as intended. Maybe some people don't get it but they are the main catalyst to end team fights and end games. They do that with consistent damage. Other wise team fights will never end and the games would take 60 minutes.

For god sakes people learn to back off a fed adc. You just did the most important counter play you can do.

That definition is stupid by itself. IMO counterbuild/pick/play and weaknesses are different things. If counterplay means everything it means nothing and existence of this term is pointless. And even if we agree that counterplay means all of that then i refuse to use this word, because there's no meaning behind this. Also the fact that sometimes the game is decided in champ select is enough of a reason to change something. Pre-game should be the place where you decide to some extent how you want to play, not how likely is your victory. The fact that counterpicking is so important is disgusting.

ADC are to reliable and that's fact. There is a reason why they are always mandatory. Every champion should be outplayable in 1v1 scenario. Yes it is a team game, but it's also a fighting game at the same time at this point. But I think it's pointless to talk about this to some elo-elitist that thinks being good at the game gives you knowledge about design, it may give you understanding about balance, but not design.

wyvern011976Oct 20, 20171 votes

Well opinions don't matter. You can call the sky green but it is still blue to the rest of us. Counter play is what counter play is. However and at whatever point in the game you achieve it, it is still counter play.

Games are decided in champ select not by the myth of counter picks (which do not exist), but by bad team compositions. Having no clear game plan with your champ selection loses games. Picking a personal strategy when the rest of the team is clearly set up for another means you lose. So the plan to victory starts in champ select or in most cases the plan to fail.

ADCs are not to reliable and THAT IS A FACT. There is 1 adc in the top 10 win rate champs (#8) and 3 in the top 20 (#16 and #19). Their D/m is not the highest, their CS/m isn't even the highest. They are second lowest KDA role in the game. So maybe some of you need to check some stat trackers. Overall adcs are statistically in a dead heat with their last 3 seasons, and of them this not even their best one. The anecdotal evidence is not borne out in the numbers. Ardent was an issue but that has been solved, and the numbers are falling even lower.

I mean ADCs can kill you, but so can every position in the game.

AuurunOct 20, 20172 votes

You compare two completely different things. Counterplay is something people came with and if Riot decided to change it's definition they simply can, It's not a sky that we can't do shit about. Also I've never seen any official definition of counterplay and looking at Riots actions sometimes makes me thing their designers themselfs are in disagreement. Meaning you believe in your definition of counterplay that you probably heard long ago and I believe in my definition.

Counterpicks do exist, however good thing they became less apparent with recent years I think. About team composition it's true, but I think it shouldn't decide the game.

And about ADC or rather marksmen being reliable. They are, but not in a sense that you think. When I say that something is reliable I mean you cannot avoid it's damage or other effects without getting out of their range. Maybe statistics say that they not a problem, but that because of two factors. There's always marksman on both teams what means it's always marksmen against other marksmen and second reason because of their ridiculous importance they always focused which can lead to completely destroying ADC and them having weak farm and KDA. You're one of very few people that argue and defend this class while I see a lot of people wanting something to change finally.

And lastly. My point that other champions that still could be played around, but got reworked anyway while marksmen didn't still stands.