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Can we make Rylais an actual tanky/utility AP item?

Malicious Metal··59 votes·3,187 views

I remember back when Rylais used to be 500 health and 80 AP.

But now, especially after the MYMU it's become a staple item on almost any meta Mage due to it having 100 AP on top of a powerful passive. I remember when mages rushed things like Morellonomicon, Ludens or just a Deathcap to boost their damage and NOT an item that's supposed to be a defensive option and help kiting/chasing.

I honestly feel Riot should tweak the stats a bit and not make it the go to rush item for BURST mages and the like. It's supposed to be primarily a tank/utility AP item and building it as your first item shouldn't reward you with more damage than an actual offensive item. Building it first should make your damage output take a hit, it shouldn't be a no brain-buy but rather an option, an investment, knowing that buying it might not help your damage a ton but give you utility and durability.

Hell, I'm totally fine with the slow passive as it's what a ton of champions are balanced around (Mordekaiser Karthus Cassiopeia and co.) but it shouldn't be the best offensive and the best defensive option in one item. Hell, it's just like zhonyas ring back in the day.

I suggest changing up the stats a bit to mirror its previous iteration.

Hell making it similar to frozen mallet (60 Ap and 600 hp?) would be kinda funny too though I feel it would force it to become a niche item for a small pool of champs like Morde, Swain, Rumble, Vlad and co.

thoughts?

81 Comments

Votable Jester24 votes

I think I argued with you about this a while ago...

Anyways, I'd be completely fine with that change, but they would absolutely need to bring in another high AP item. As I said before, I build all the item 1058 upgrades (minus item 3003 ) on Xerath, and would hate to run out of high AP items (rip item 3157).

Rozair9 votes

AP itemization in general just sucks. Look more AP items and there is just something about it that actually is just stupid

item 3151 2% of current health when it should be maximum health. This item truly sucks unless you are Brand already dealing 8% of their maximum health its not even good on{{champion:69} } item 3285 item 3087 static is cheaper and actually does about the same amount of damage if not more when coupled with a item 3031

item 3165 only works when enemy is below 35% item 3123 does it all the time for 800 gold LOL

item 3170 is not an item and it should be

item 3135 item 3036 clearly lord doms is much better

Atanchan3 votes

Wait, what? Void Staff is incredibly powerful to the point where it's actually a rushed item on burst champions that want to play risky. Its magic pen ( which includes base magic resistance, unlike the Last Whisper variants ) usually more than makes up for the lower AP in comparison to other rush items and amplifies all further AP purchases and reduces the effectiveness of any attempts to itemize against your damage.

It's worth remembering that straight AP just increases the damage in accord with the AP ratios. Magic pen and AP together does that, but it also effectively increases the AP ratio and base damage of all your magic damage-dealing abilities. Haunting Guise can't really compare, because it has so much less AP and magic penetration that trails off as soon as anyone actually builds magic resist. Void Staff has none of these issues.

Also, I'm not really sure why you're comparing Morello's to Executioner's, unless AD champs are meant to have Executioner's as a first item option for aggressive sustain, solid damage, and overall improved combat abilities. 15 AD and a situational passive ain't doing any of that, unless there was a patch I missed that changed the ratio of autoattacks to 1000% AD and most AD-scaling abilities now scale with around 1450% of it.

Rozair5 votes

ad champions get 2 items in one

item 3033 =item 3135 +item 3165 item 3036 = item 3135 +item 3151 oh wait not really because item 3151 sucks

Atanchan1 votes

Mortal Reminder is nothing like Void Staff or Morello's. It neither amplifies your damage indiscriminately like Void Staff ( because, y'know, bonus armor pen vs omni magic pen ), nor does it provide a huge chunk of AD and AS and a way to aggressively refuel your resources.

Which, yes, is Morello's purpose: more powerful spells more often without worrying about running out if you're successful at killing people. That Grievous Wounds effect? A nice little bonus that's mostly there for legacy reasons which would be utterly idiotic to buy the item for ( because, y'know, it triggers only as such low health totals ) and really only is still there because it does provide mages Grievous Wounds on an item they'd want anyway.

Lord Dominic's is the same deal, aside from the fact that Liandry's and Giant Slayer really do serve to amplify your damage against high-health targets. And, yes, Giant Slayer really is far superior.

Thaurron1 votes

I shed a silent tear every time I get Mortal Reminder because I know I'm missing out on the extra damage from Dominic's but I need to counter the enemy's healing somehow.

Durfain7 votes

There's enough AP items with nerfed AP values as it is.. we don't need another one.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Funny, because while we lost Zhonyas AP (120 > 70) and Luden's AP (120 > 100) a lot of AP items got AP values increased because they were never bought such as Liandries (50 > 80), Rylai's (80 > 100), and more recently Morellonomicon (80 > 100)

dEAdbUs2 votes

Liandry was a niche item. Burst mages (and it's 75% of mages) never needed it. Mage who were building Liandry were reworked and now are made of skillshots, so they need Rylai first item.

Most mages build items, not because of AP, but because of their skillset. So nerf of Zhonia hits most AP mages, while Lianrdy's buff helped just to a couple of them. Heimer was literally destroyed by this MYMU, because his core items were hevily nerfed.

Could not care7 votes

Most AP items suck hard now, so with Rylais nerf it'd be even more of Zed and Yasuo dominance. So, how about a no?

ForgiveColour6 votes

Are weplaying the same game? Lmao

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Could not care,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4OuxZu3m,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-04T03:06:55.322+0000)

Most AP items suck hard now, so with Rylais nerf it'd be even more of Zed and Yasuo dominance. So, how about a no?

That insinuates that Zed's "dominant" atm to begin with...

Could not care1 votes

{quoted}

That insinuates that Zed's "dominant" atm to begin with...

He's good enough to be a pain, even after the nerf before which he was god.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Could not care,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4OuxZu3m,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2016-09-04T23:25:42.945+0000)

He's good enough to be a pain, even after the nerf before which he was god.

No. People just think that "win lane, lose game" champs are always op because they think the key to winning is stomping the lane, not taking the nexus. Even if Zed wins lane, he has to stomp lane and get good roams if he wants a chance to hard carry before late game hits. Even when he was at his 52%-ish win rate, Zed was no "God".

EVG Mike6 votes

Except for.. rylais is not a staple item on most mages..

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Ahri AurelionSol Azir Brand Cassiopeia Heimerdinger Kennen Kayle Malzahar Taliyah Swain Viktor Zyra Velkoz

Those are the champs i regularly see it build on... Not most mages i guess?

Kivolan6 votes

What burst mage is rushing Rylais? I have yet to see this happen.

Leblanc Ahri Annie Katarina Lux Diana etc. all start with item 3001 item 3285 item 3165 or item 3089.

I see a few of them build it late, but the ones you say are rushing it aren't rushing it at all...

AP items don't need nerfs with how AD items are currently sitting. With item 3142 being built by 90% of the AD roster, item 3116 is very much needed.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

It's definitely a good item on Ahri. Usually a very good item if they have someone in desperate need of kiting such as Volibear or Darius. Not a rush item though, I usually buy it second should the situation call for it.

dEAdbUs2 votes

It's not burst games, it's assassins (except Annie and Lux). Assassing don't need Rylai.

Annie needs Rylai now, because her Tibbers can slow enemies and deals tons of damage with his AA. Plus it helps - when you don't have Flash, need to initiate with R and can't get close to enemies, you can summon Tibbers near with enemies he will slow then with his aure. It make's range of your initiation bigger.

Thaurron1 votes

You still don't go Rylai's first on Annie.

dEAdbUs1 votes

Why not? I usually take some cdr and then build Rylai. In most games it's my first finished item, because I need it right after laning phase - aoe slow is great in teamfights.

dEAdbUs1 votes

Lol why do you downvoting me? Downvote rito - it's their game.

Marshbouy4 votes

If riot did this it would cataclysmically nerf a vast array of mages, so no thanks.

Malicious Metal26 votes

So you're saying chipping off a mere 20 Ap and giving it a bit more hp would totally gut some mages?

Please, the item didn't use to have a ton of AP in the first place. Its use is to help some mages get their damage off, keep themselves safe or simply help ap bruisers do their job. It's not a death cap bent on upping your damage or a Ludens that will give you more burst.

It shouldn't be as low as say proto belt belt but at the same time it being one of the items with the greatest bulk of AP isn't something this kind of item should have.

Votable Jester7 votes

20 AP before being increased by Rabadon's, so effectively 27. A full combo often has >250% AP scaling, so that's a loss of 67.5 damage pre mitigations and multipliers. That is also some damage lost on harass, potential heals/shields, movement speed buffs, etc.

The change wouldn't absolutely destroy champions, but it would weaken them a bit (assuming they continue to build it ofc).

Mandang01 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4OuxZu3m,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-09-04T00:35:34.057+0000)

Please, the item didn't use to have a ton of AP in the first place.

It also wasn't ever bought in those days AND manaless mages (one of the groups who did actually buy it) lost spellvamp itemization since then.

Now, I actually agree that purchasing a slow should be more situational than it is now, but I don't think nerfing is what's needed. When RoA has the same amount of AP and 100 more HP for 500 gold less with 400 mana and a decent passive to boot, I find it hard to think manaless AP itemization needs nerfs. I'd prefer to see Riot deter Rylai's rushes by making mana-users invest in mana items first (and not just 2 Doran's Rings). (That or finally replace the mana regen on blue buff with something else so manaless champs don't get screwed over by it.)

And for what it's worth, I'd raise a similar argument to yours about the heal debuff on Morello - it's not as situational as I'd like and the item seems to be overperforming at the moment.

Requiemsfire2 votes

I started playing at the end of season V and realized just how strong it was when I bought it on Heimerdinger and began rushing it in a lot of games due to the fact that it gives increased zoning and powerful CC due to the turrets proccing on spell effects whilst making him tankier. The only reason I can imagine that people didn't just buy Rylai's before was either they didn't realize how strong it was or mages that would use it were unpopular.

Mandang02 votes

OK, but how can you tell the difference between a case where Rylai's is actually OP and one where it's common only because the champs that use it well are popular? For those people that would say the latter is a result of the former, then I'd explain the previous lack of Rylai's similarly - it wasn't good. I don't even remember many mages building health pre-MYMU besides the obvious RoA users like Karthus/Ryze or Azir building Rylai's (but he's arguably the best Rylai's user in the game).

I also think it's rare that an entire playerbase gets the strength of an item wrong (not to mention the professional scene), so we're going to have to agree to disagree there. Maybe it's because alternative items were stronger at the time (Zhonya's still had 120 AP), but I don't think that means old Rylai's was good.

Very Hard Engage6 votes

its not just a 20AP chip.

item 3027 item 3157 item 3285 damage nerf and build up nerf, horribly less frequent than static shiv, its rival. item 3001 DFG item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3174

next thing you know riots going to gut seraphs because it can grant over 120AP easy (but in combo with others, it can grant even more, 200 ap with morello/roa).

or would you prefer a flat nerf on rab cap too? despite the gold increase >.> being a no longer viable 2nd item rush.

mages need AP, but aparently when a mage lands their skill shot CC, its unjustified for them to full combo you when they have a 2 level advantage over you and you didn't build any MR. because theres NO COUNTERPLAY to skill shots.

what if i said ADC's couldn't build infinity edge until their last item? how would that make you feel. forced to rush a bloodthirster as a first/second item.

i used to be able to build -> item 3070 -> DFG -> item 3089 -> item 3157 -> item 3040 -> item 3135 and i would feel powerful sitting on 800 ap and i could reliably look to pick a carry. nowadays i cant do that, ill find myself just outside their kill range every single time invalidating the build.

DKM Bismarck2 votes

AP itemisation is both more defensive and offensive than AD itemisation at the exact same time (hear me out) % AP increase (Rabadon's, huge powerspike item with an insane amount of AP on it on its own, fair enough for the price however. I like this item :3) Stasis (Zhonya.) Seraphs is stronger than Muramana by miles.

Rylai is broke RoA is broke even after nerfs, the reason that half of mages end up too tanky to kill is the trifecta of RoA - 100 AP? + HP and mana regen per level up (not that strong later but insanely useful early) Rylai - 100 AP + Perma Slowing Zhonya - 70 AP + Stasis We're all over here complaining about arpen items, yeah youmuu and duskblade need to be melee only in the way Rylai and RoA need not to give the number of AP they give for the amount of HP they provide. There's an entire plethora of reasons why AP itemisation is so good, which is why it gets kneecapped every other season, it's almost always so good when it's good that it alone crowds out the possibility of AD mids and sometimes actually makes double/tri AP comps the best, especially in comp play. AP scales better, gives better actives and usually better passive, you only lack in your flat pen department tbh.

Voluug131 votes

Except AP items having HP is where mages are balanced in, they have no sustain and many have little on defensives and mobility.

RoA is balanced around the fact it takes time to complete.

Rylai may be slightly overtuned, but the real problem here is that people are confusing Rylai users with Rylai abusers. Viktor and Azir, for example, are abusers, while basically everyone else that builds it is an user. Abusers are using it to bypass their mechanical weaknesses, while users are balanced around it being built in the first place.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

Well nearly every AP is building Rylai's because it's a huge source of AP, HP, and gives a slow. It's rather overtuned. And, AP items having HP is not where mages were balanced until /this season/ and many have plenty of defense, mobility, or plenty of hard cc to make up for the lack of sustain Brand, Viktor, lack mobility, have 1 hard cc and 1 soft cc Liss, LB. Liss fair mobility, cc/sustain, poke, damage. LB is insane mobility, okay cc. Not to mention there are a niche few sustain mages. And many mages whom outburst AD casters whilst having more safe items and more hard / soft cc

RoA is balanced around being good on AP mages, bruisers and tanks :D

Voluug131 votes

Overtuned could it be if its gold efficiency was way above its price, like item 3156 was. Rylai is a huge source of AP and HP because of its huge cost and awkward materials. The real reason because some people are getting away with building it is because of game pacing and Riot enforcing a meta that benefits some LCS champions rushing it.

Brand always built it, even before his rework. Nothing new here.

Viktor is an abuser.

LB is not the best designed champion in the first place and tbh its not a good item to rush on her unless you need to really kite a lot, which is already has without Rylai's.

Liss cant realistically build it as a first item with her mana costs, much less if she has to spend mana outside her 18s passive cd. Even there, she draws very little power from the slow because half her kit already slows, one is a mobility spell, and the other is a hard CC already.

You named a long time user, a recent abuser, and 2 mages that benefit very very little from Rylai due to how their kits work, and can actually put the at a disadvantage if their enemies force them to use mana to push back minions.

RoA cant be used by all tanks and those that can cant rush it unless they are already fed, most of not all bruisers cant use RoA because its an AP item, and only half the mages get some benefit from RoA that they dont from pure AP items.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

Nearly every mage can use Rylai because of all the power it provides and lots of AP tanks get RoA, or Rylai in almost evert game I play. And I meant AP tanks and AP bruisers can abuse the item sorry I was really super exhausted.

Thaurron1 votes

I really only see it on champions that could benefit from the slow. Liss building it seems odd, she'd more likely go for Zhonyas and/or Abyssal in addition to her RoA. I suppose champs that build Rylai's, Liandry's and RoA can be annoying especially during mid-game with all of that extra health but honestly it never seems overbearing unless the entire enemy team has a ton of health and I'm playing Bard or something with limited burst.

Irelia Bot4 votes

And every time someone says revert the slow passive to what it use to be they get down voted. 40% on single target abilities I could understand but 40% on AoE is too much.

The item is too all around good to the point where gettign things like Echo in place of it laughable givne the damage gains are not great enough to make up for what else is being lost. If it was back to 80 AP and 500 health that would be a good start in making champs have to decide between survivability and utility VS other damage options.

Gorgiolio4 votes

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with the item at all. I personally cannot find any stats that shows the item as over powered or is too strong. Many meta mages do not build it right away, and while some do pick it up in the late game they are allowed to do so. Ahri, Xerath, Anivia, Syndra, Annie, Twisted Fate, and veigar to name a few do not build it as a staple item. It's an optional DEFENSIVE item in a toss up with Zhonya's due to it's active being so strong for waiting on cooldowns or outplays.

There are many champions that would rather opt for Zhonya's over Rylai since they are a burst mage. Annie flash ult combos? She needs that zhonyas to allow her team to continue their follow up and she doesn't die right away. Same with many champions that have to blow a combo and wait on cooldowns. It's no different from Malzahar, Viktor, Taliyah, or even Sol getting it so they can kite since their damage is sustained or requires them to get rather close. You have champions who also just have awesome synergy with the item, such as Brand.

So, in conclusion, I find that there is nothing wrong with the item. Many popular mages do not build it early and it is commonly not a first item. I've looked them up on a couple different sites, and to me it's just your word over what's actually being done. There's still a lot of diversity, and Rylai's is a last item or never even built on a lot of mages a majority of the time. Not to say it never happens.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

It's just not true. Look at current builds for a lot of mages. There is always a rylais somewhere. U say it is an "optional" defensive item, it stops becoming optional when it is in every core build and there lies the problem. There is a reason many champs lack CC and rylais is just so strong it easily negates those. Take cassio for example: Good range, high ms, ms boost, slow on her W, spammable E. Oh lets just buy a rylais so you never ever get away.

Gorgiolio2 votes

Well of course Cassiopeia would build it? You literally just spelled out the perfect kiting mage? Is that a Rylai problem? Hell no. It's a champion problem. Ahri doesn't build it regularly, and if she does it's normally her last item. Veigar doesn't build it. Anivia doesn't build it. Xerath doesn't build it, although he can. Annie doesn't build it. Vel'koz builds it either last or around 3rd to 4th item, so he can kite late game. Syndra, lux, and Katarina do not build it. Those are all top performing and high win rate mid laners/mages.

I don't know who you are blindly believing, but there literally isn't any statistics pointing to the item being over powered or core on everybody. Core items are build first, second, and maybe third. Past there it's normally dependent upon the match. Cassiopeia, Viktor, Taliyah, or even Brand and Malz are not currently the highest winrate or highest performing mages. If you are basing anything off the LCS, it has a completely different sense of meta. They need mages who can either peel themselves, or make solid plays by themselves. Mages like Malzahar also allow them the ability to get picks and lockdown any one they need to.

Open up your eyes mate.

Thaurron1 votes

I still don't get why Vel'koz would ever build Rylai's since his Q buff. It's a non-decaying 70% slow for 2.6 seconds! What more do you need need?

Gorgiolio1 votes

It's a toss up between Zhonya's Hourglass and Rylai's since it's generally a late game item. Rylai's would allow the rest of his abilities to apply the slow, which is amazing for his ulti and other combos.

Theorchero3 votes

The problem with Rylais isn't its stats, it's the fact that the slow can get refreshed so often. It needs to only apply once per spell and have diminishing returns when used on spam champions like Cass.

There's zero reason that bitch needs to have huge MS steroids on top of a permaslow with huge ap and health.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Yup. Cassio is the posterchild of a failed, broken, overloaded kit. If someone has the to play top against her as melee will notice how busted she is. Former seasons a mage top against a tank would most likely get obliterated. This season, lulz. She has good base ms, self heal, mana refund, ms boost, slow and as soon as she has rylais you are done for good.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

nope top vlad was good

Legacy Hydralpha3 votes

To be honest, I thought this was just a post to indirectly buff Morde through one of his core items, but this is a pretty good idea.

Make Rylai's Tank Again

xTropicalPenguin2 votes

I mean if you reduce the ap on it only 2 items in the game will have 100 ap or more, so you'd need to buff something else

serpensortia12 votes

Rabadon, morello, luden, roa (stacked), seraph (with passive).

LadyRenly2 votes

I buy it just cuz it has 100 ap

ChaosThief2 votes

There was a point where item 3027 gave 120 AP in addition to 400 health and 300 mana at some point. Literally one of the higher AP items in the game with health and mana. At least it made some degree of sense since it ramped up.

Current rylai has no real disadvantage, which makes it a pretty desirable item nowadays.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

it gives 500 health. but it used to give 800 mana in addition to 120

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