About Hating on the Bot Lane Marksman Role

Mira Arya Enthe·Mar 11, 2017·5 votes·1,554 views

Something I think people who hate ADCs should keep in mind. If supports are not bound at all to bot lane and are going to start perma-roaming or going to other lanes, and if ADCs are going to no longer be late game gods as these haters love saying they shouldn't be good late game. Then ADCs will HAVE to become self proficient laners/junglers, which means ALL of them will need self peel/mobility in their kit to deal with ganks like a solo laner must have, and ways to initiate and win fights without a support. And if they are going to be pushed out of bot lane just for the sake of pushing them out of bot lane, they have to be able to play in other lanes. Or in other words...

Become the standard of design for all marksman...

30 Comments

Critmaster GarenMar 11, 20174 votes

its not that marksmen shouldnt be possible to get picked bot lane anymore.

it would just be nice if you could actually chose if you want to pick a bot lane marksman, a melee carry or apc.

people who want to pick ranged adc should still be able to, but people who want to go with ziggs and azir into duo lanes, with darius or mordekaiser should be allowed to do so awsell without royally screwing themselves.

and teamcomps without marksmen should have roughly an equal chance of winning as teamcomps with marksmen.

the hate isnt directed at marksmens ability to go bot lane with a support. but towards the fact that NOTHING else does.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20172 votes

Yes, as soon as Ashe mid, Caitlyn Jungle or Sivir top are made viable through additions to their kit that make them viable in those roles to the same average success rate as an APC mid, Shyvana Jungle or Darius top lane.

Critmaster GarenMar 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4O4sEYHh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-03-11T04:28:02.891+0000)

Yes, as soon as Ashe mid or Sivir top are made viable through additions to their kit that make them viable in those roles to the same average success rate as an APC mid or Darius top lane.

there are plenty of marksmen viable in other lanes.

not every bruiser is viable anywhere else but top lane, not every mage viable anywhere else but mid lane. there are individual champions that arent very diverse when it comes to which position they can take on the map. its not like you see karthus top, or renekton going mid just because some fighters are viable mid and some mages are viable top.

still, every other lane than bot lane sees diversity in their champion picks.

just because some mages and fighters are made viable bot lane, doesnt mean every single ranged adc has to be viable anywhere else but bot lane.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

There is one marksman normally played top, two if you include Teemo. Played mid Ezreal and Varus are played more like mages. Jungle we have Graves and a joke of a champion called Kindred. 6 total marksmen normally played in other roles. And none of them play like traditional marksmen at all. So when traditional marksmen, can reliably be played in meta mid, top, jungle and support. Sure I will be all for Ziggs, Morde, Darius, Pantheon, Galio or whatever other carry somebody wants to play bot lane. The thing is, then these champions would have to be balanced with a support in mind, and marksmen going into other lanes would have to be balanced to function without a support. Because at the moment, marksmen like Ashe are shit early game compared to Darius or Ziggs and extremely vulnerable to ganks, in exchange they have a support in their lane so they can scale up. So if the same becomes true of Azir, it would be fine.

Critmaster GarenMar 11, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4O4sEYHh,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-11T04:34:38.598+0000)

There is one marksman normally played top, two if you include Teemo. Played mid Ezreal and Varus are played more like mages. Jungle we have Graves and a joke of a champion called Kindred. 6 total marksmen normally played in other roles. And none of them play like traditional marksmen at all. So when traditional marksmen, can reliably be played in meta mid, top, jungle and support. Sure I will be all for Ziggs, Morde, Darius, Pantheon, Galio or whatever other carry somebody wants to play bot lane. The thing is, then these champions would have to be balanced with a support in mind, and marksmen going into other lanes would have to be balanced to function without a support. Because at the moment, marksmen like Ashe are shit early game compared to Darius or Ziggs and extremely vulnerable to ganks, in exchange they have a support in their lane so they can scale up. So if the same becomes true of Azir, it would be fine.

point being?

there are still a good portion of marksmen viable in other positions than the duo bot lane.

Garen DrMundo Illaoi is shit against mages like Swain and Lissandra , or marksmen like Quinn . yet were still expected to share our lane with these champions even though they generally take a dump on us, and we have nowhere else to go.

why do marksmen deserve special treatment in that regard?

people can easily accept that certain bruisers get hard countered by certain marksmen or mages in their "own" lane. why shouldnt the same be possible with that ashe and sivir on bot lane?

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

Treating Graves and Quinn as ADCs is a joke, both are played entirely like assassins, well Graves a tad more like a Skirmisher. Again Varus and Ez are played like mages mid, they do not reflect marksman gameplay. I am still 100% fine sending stuff like Morde and Darius bot lane, as soon as I can play Ashe mid or top without it being considered troll.

Critmaster GarenMar 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4O4sEYHh,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-11T04:40:55.057+0000)

Treating Graves and Quinn as ADCs is a joke, both are played entirely like assassins, well Graves a tad more like a Skirmisher. Again Varus and Ez are played like mages mid, they do not reflect marksman gameplay. I am still 100% fine sending stuff like Morde and Darius bot lane, as soon as I can play Ashe mid or top without it being considered troll.

my point still stands. you cant pick every bruiser into every lane nor does every mage work in every lane.

a singular champions diversity when it comes to the positions he can take, and lane diversity when it comes to playable champion classes in a specific lane are two different things.

some specific marksmen like ashe or sivir might always be only playable on bot lane really, just like garens only optimal position is top lane.

but that in itself isnt an argument to not strife for champion diversity on bot lane.

that Ashe will have to get used to getting counterpicked by mages and certain fighters occationally, just like Garen got used to getting counterpicked by mages and marksmen on top lane.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

The problem with force inserting a champion into a specific role is, how do you do it without making them toxic in their original role or new role. How do you prevent them from just being broken or worthless. And why gamble a beloved champion design on such an endeavour to begin with. Or in other words...

Mordekaiser ADC As well as a good number of 'support' mages who are now shit in their original role.

Force inserting a champion into another role tends to destroy them. Especially in bot lane where 9.999999/10 times you will be facing 1-2 ranged poke champions. So if your champion is melee they either need a toxic mechanic that will make them broken vs other melees and/or in solo lanes, to be so overtuned or cheesy they break the game or only work if that cheese works, or end up nerfed into dust and forgotten for six years until they rerework them.

Critmaster GarenMar 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4O4sEYHh,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-11T04:47:31.745+0000)

The problem with force inserting a champion into a specific role is, how do you do it without making them toxic in their original role or new role. How do you prevent them from just being broken or worthless. And why gamble a beloved champion design on such an endeavour to begin with. Or in other words...

ADC As well as a good number of 'support' mages who are now shit in their original role.

Force inserting a champion into another role tends to destroy them. Especially in bot lane where 9.999999/10 times you will be facing 1-2 ranged poke champions. So if your champion is melee they either need a toxic mechanic that will make them broken vs other melees and/or in solo lanes, to be so overtuned or cheesy they break the game or only work if that cheese works, or end up nerfed into dust and forgotten for six years until they rerework them.

i think morde right now is a very viable duo lane fighter while far from being toxic.

the only reason he used to be was because of his shared xp mechanic. it took riot a while, but hes in a good spot where he can be taken into a duo lane without relying on an unfair mechanic.

id say ziggs was never an unfair pick either.

plus, again. nobody seems to care how unfair a champion like Jayce or Quinn is for certain fighters on top lane, because top lane has always had champion diversity and people came to get used to these picks and counterpicks. what they arent used to is anything but a marksman counterpicking another marksman on bot lane. hence the shitstorm every time it happens.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

Morde is in a terrible design spot in general, period. And is extremely binary and toxic. Even MM admits so in his post on how Morde should be reworked...

Critmaster GarenMar 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4O4sEYHh,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-11T04:51:24.459+0000)

Morde is in a terrible design spot in general, period. And is extremely binary and toxic. Even MM admits so in his post on how Morde should be reworked...

thats weird, because in his recent posts, ive seen him more excited than worried that hes now a viable duo laner and solo laner.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/nlncldvE-add-a-title

Mordekaiser has historically been one of the most unhealthy champions and thus has always been kept in a rather weak state. He’s extremely binary and doesn’t provide a lot of agency over the game, neither for him nor his enemies. He’s extremely snowbally and his entire kit is just loaded with damage and tankiness that he falls short if he doesn’t get to use these strengths. Additionally there has always been the trend of him being built almost entirely FULL AP since he gets a lot of durability simply by building damage when in fact he’s supposed to be more of a bruisers and not a Burst mage.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

Also you still keep forgetting that none of the champions trying to be forced into bot lane are bad in solo lanes. While all primary bot lane marksmen are reliant on support existing. They are shit solo laners. THAT is why they MUST go in the duo lane. It isn't because they 'deserve' it. It is because they have no other viable option.

RalanrMar 11, 20172 votes

Yeah and if they do, then better defenses against ranged attacks would be implemented.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

Yes, but so would better ability for 600-650 range marksman to self peel, initiate and win fights alone and survive ganks without support. The range vs melee thing is already something Riot will address when a good solution is found. But do we really want more Quinn, Ezreal, Graves, Vayne and Corki in the game?

RalanrMar 11, 20171 votes

If a good solution is found, yes.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

I mean, I am 100% fine with other picks being viable bot lane. As long as I can play Ashe mid or top without it being considered trolling. There are NO traditional ADCs played outside of bot lane. They tried with Kindred and it was a mess. Graves and Quinn are played as assassins. Varus and Ez are played mid like mages in functionality. So again, Ashe top viable? Cool, then I have no problem with Azir or Vlad being playable in the ADC role.

ZT XperimentorMar 11, 20172 votes

And thus marksmen mains have become self-entitled, as the team reliance for safety faded.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

I am a Shyvana jungle main. Also have lvl 6 on Leona and the tokens for lvl 7(not enough blue essence). I also play a lot of Soraka. I only play one Marksmen and am far from a Marksman main. The purpose of the post, is that if we are to push Marksmen out of bot lane, make them weaker late game and take supports away from them as the boards desire, they must become self proficient laners like everyone else.

ZT XperimentorMar 11, 20171 votes

That's more or less what's already happened, several marksmen got self-defencive CC/mobility measures in their class update preseason 6. Classic supports aren't as common anymore since the meta-maniacs just want to kill; and damage still scales up faster & harder than durability.

WingsofGulgazorMar 11, 20172 votes

supports have to be stuck with the marksmen to allow them to be strong otherwise as mentioned marksmen will need mobility and other things and then they get played in every lane and people complain that adc's are op so they nerf them to be to weak again while still having supports roam or being the carries then ad's do nothing, or get played in all roles or do nothing if played in there actual position while graves jungle and quin mid are op.

or riot tries to fix it by making ad's able to kill everything later in game exept tanks which then means tanks are op since if even the role they make to kill everything in 2 seconds can't kill tanks then there's a problem

or they buff assasains to try and fix it.

or they could just accept that supports and adc's are one role and not try and make supports more appealing by sacrificing what they were made to do, like ward and actually do support things and supports might feel weak to play but that is why when you feel supports and adc's are one role and accept that and supports are doing support things and are weak in raw power it gives perfect and ample reason to make adc's strong because the person playing it is wielding the power of two players because one person is supporting and giving strength to the other and the rest of the team.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 11, 20171 votes

Sounds good. Let's get on it.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

I am 100% fine with this. As long as I can play Ashe in mid or jungle or top, then I am 100% fine with Azir or Darius being played bot lane.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 11, 20171 votes

If I had the choice I would play Azir bot.

Becuase quite frankly he works very much like a traditional marksman, with a weak early and mid gale in exchange for a potent late. And in most cases Azir has an unbeatable late game Becuase his DPS is AOE. His only true weakness late is a lack of sustain like a traditional marksman.

He is item dependant like marksman, however his soldier damage is dependant on his level.

If Riot shifted his W damage to its ranks, then Azir would be encouraged to max that instead of Q, so we wouldn't have to worry about his oppressive poke-burst laning phase and he could be taken bot.

Mira Arya EntheMar 11, 20171 votes

I think this would be great. It also makes sense for an emperor to have a ~~slave~~ support!

TyrekGoldenspearMar 11, 20171 votes

You were right the first time, though I'd prefer the term Emperor's Aide.

Teridax68Mar 11, 20171 votes

Most mages do not have substantial mobility in their kit, and several solo lane mages do not even have that much crowd control. Ultimately yeah, it would be good for marksmen to be functional in solo lanes if/when they're no longer part of a mandatory duo bot lane, but that doesn't need to happen purely by giving them dashes or oodles of self-peel. As several patch cycles since the past season have shown, marksmen can become successful, even dominant in solo lanes, simply by receiving better access to damage early on. Range is a clear advantage in lane, and marksmen are a class built on exploiting theirs.

I also seriously dislike the OP because of how it frames people advocating greater team comp diversity, and more diversity in the bot lane specifically, as "ADC haters". I personally have some issues with marksmen as a class and as individual champions, but I also want them to thrive, because they're a part of this game and, despite the problems they may sometimes cause (but then again, what hasn't been a problem one time or another in this game?), have contributed positively overall. Looking at this from another angle, the current bot lane meta kind of hurts marksmen in a way, because it has caused them to be balanced around being babysat throughout the entire early game, which can often end up stripping them of a lot of agency, and limiting their laning options in a way classes like, say, fighters and assassins don't deal with as regularly. Finding a healthy way for them to more consistently lane solo or jungle, while also unlocking bot lane to other classes in their stead, could benefit them, and the game as a whole, in the long run.

NekoniClawsMar 11, 20171 votes

They needed someone to scale with gold rather than levels (to create a stable duo-lane), and marksmen have a unique play style that is easy to isolate and balance numbers around.

If you allign a mage to be increased in power by gaining gold- they can't go midlane. They'd be overpowered.