How can we really fix Talon? [A look at Talon's E and why it needs a change]

ChickenWrap··2 votes·1,053 views

I feel like one of Talon's most defining features for his strength -- besides his burst damage, is the fact that it feels like, no matter what you do, Talon will almost always be able to get away.

While you would want to keep Talon's ability to roam the map in check, his ability to roam the map, kill someone, and then hop over 3 walls (more walls than any one champion can keep up with) is a little ridiculous. Talon should be punished for placing himself in harm's way like that and shouldn't have an incredibly easy out that others players can't chase him through.

What I suggest is to allow Talon to leap walls as he does, however to put his E on a significant cooldown the next time it's used while he's in combat. Bumping up the cooldown from what it is currently to around 10, or even 6 seconds would allow other players to actually interact with Talon in a meaningful way without feeling helpless to stop him from snowballing out of control.

The play pattern against Talon is: Burst him as he's assassinating someone near you and hope Edge of Night wasn't enough, or watch him leap over the next few walls as you desperately try to catch him.

Which you won't.

What do you guys think? Should Talon's E have an in-combat cooldown, and would that allow players to deal with Talon without making the Talon player feel useless? I think it would make the Talon player actually think about what he's doing before he does it, since he knows he won't be able to have the easiest out. One wall hop to make his great escape. He won't get another until awhile later, so he'd better understand the potential consequences of his assassination before he executes it.

17 Comments

Verxint3 votes

The walls go on a 2 minute cooldown when he uses them. If he does the maneuver you described he just put at least 2 walls on CD, probably more to get over there.

Have you played Talon? There's a very cerebral element in deciding when and where to parkour, its not just free mobility.

ChickenWrap1 votes

Man, he won't be able to kill you again for two minutes. League games usually last anywhere from 30-40 minutes.

That's a lot of walls.

Why would I complain about a champion I'm not familiar with?

forist3 votes

No, talon's e already has an exaggerated cast animation that is slowed massively by any cc that hits him. If you played the champion you would understand that you have to plan a path and escape route before committing to an all-in due to the cool-down on each individual wall. Talon is completely balanced, don't ask for nerfs just because you don't like playing against a specific part of his kit.

ChickenWrap1 votes

Ignorance is bliss.

forist3 votes

Really, its like if I were to sit here and complain about shaco's deceive being cast-able in combat, because he can go invisible for up to 4 seconds. Shaco should have to think about what hes doing instead of just going invisible or blinking over the wall to easily get away. See how dumb that sounds?

Shadòw2 votes

well when he roams he usually uses the walls already and can't use them again to escape.

and you can always cc him after he goes in.

he needs nerfs, but his e isn't the problem.

ChickenWrap2 votes

His E is definitely part of the problem. He's simply impossible to chase which leads to a dynamic of killing people over and over and never dying.

Shadòw2 votes

not when you consider that the walls go on cd for years

ChickenWrap1 votes

Not when you consider it's 60 seconds at max with CD applying to it to make it 36 seconds.

Shadòw2 votes

when it's maxed and you max it last..

apart from the fact that you shouldn't chase him in the first place.

he needs to hop in and get close to you as assassin, not the other way around.

ChickenWrap1 votes

The fact that your argument is "You shouldn't chase him in the first place" is an extremely poor one. Simply knowing that every 2 minutes (which really isn't such a long time at level 1) he'll be able to leap in, kill you, and leap back out without being able to be followed is simply poor design and yes, it is part of the underlying problem with Talon's kit.

Shadòw3 votes

when you are getting killed by the same shit over and over again it's your fault when you know exactly where his strength lies.

and it's not an poor argument, but a fact. some champs simply should not be chased.

you either lock him down in the right moment or let him hop away. he still is an assassin, and assassins need to kill you, that's their job, what they do.

what does the jumping around bring him when he can't kill anybody?

sooner or later he has to jump in, and that is the moment where you want to lock him down and kill him fast. one cc and he should be done.

and he can't leap in, kill you and leap out again. he can either leap in or leap out considering his wall CDs.

his E has enough counterplay to play around. his identy is the roaming assassin, so basically not playing into his strengths is already a good way to counter him. simply warding over said walls and keeping an eye on the map will usually already do the job.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2702 votes

Talon's E is complete bullshit.

Ganking him is a huge pain as his ultimate is on a low cooldown and combine with his E. He can't be chased.

The cooldown means nothing when he can jump over turrets, cliffs, and walls.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Talon's E is complete bullshit.

Ganking him is a huge pain

Legit just kill him before he gets to a wall.

as his ultimate is on a low cooldown

100 seconds at level 6.

and combine with his E. He can't be chased.

Talon's E has a 2 second CD lock out per jump at rank 1 with no CDR. It is very possible and even easy to chase talon and kill him before he reaches a second wall and kill him by that time.

And if you force him to, he has a CD longer than his Ultimate for every wall he jumped, making ganking him even easier he next time.

In contrast, leblanc or Zed just W away every time.

The cooldown means nothing when he can jump over turrets, cliffs, and walls.

ON-TARGET COOLDOWN: 160

Also, "omg he can dash 2 teemos worth of distance by leaping a turret 1 time every 160 seconds, so op."

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I'm ok with rito nerfing talon's damage as long as they change his base ms back to 350. He feels like a fucking Mage atm.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Talon is literally the most immobile Assassin in the game outside of his wall hop, and it is limited by the wall he hops over. In contrast, champs like Zed, Leblanc and Fizz or even Shen are more consistently mobile than he is, and Talon is gated by the fact that he becomes less mobile ever time he uses some mobility.

Whether you find it "annoying that eh got away" isn't a valid reason to justify nerfing it. Leblanc can dash in any direction she wants on a 6 second CD with max CDR AND has the ability to pop back within a 4 second CD to her original position AND can mimic the spell with her Ultimate to do it again within said duration at any moments notice.

Talon is basically slower than a mage when he isn't wall hoping and can only go forward unless he picks and chooses which walls he is using for specific scenarios.

If you go up to leblanc, she just dashes 4 screens away and if you chase her, she pops back where she was while you are in lala land.

When talon is in danger, he has to basically panic and run to the nearest wall he HASN'T used and hope you don't CC him in the middle of the jump to cancel it while still putting the wall on CD, or that he can get o the next wall before any follow up kills him.

Whats more is that it has a travel time and is affected by his current MS, making slows and such slow his dash speed over said terrain and making him easy to catch and kill upon doing so. He is also not invincible when going over walls, taking damage and possibly dying.

ChickenWrap1 votes

{quoted}

Talon is literally the most immobile Assassin in the game

Aaaaaaaand that's an opinion that's not only untrue, but uninformed.

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