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The overlooked problem with support itemization.

SpecterVonBaren··85 votes·4,482 views

A lot of people are complaining that item 3107 and item 3190 are overpowered or that because they are so good that they overshadow other support items like item 3504 item 3109 or item 3050 .

What I think is an important aspect to this problem that everyone has been overlooking is that the issue doesn't lie with item 3107 and item 3190 but with item 3301 /item 3303 /item 3302 item 1001 , and item 2049 .

Lots of champions have item power spikes or good synergy with certain items. Darius gets a power spike when he completes item 3071 because of its synergy with his passive and the movespeed it gives him. On the other hand, MonkeyKing also likes item 3071 but not as an in lane power spike but as a mid/late game item for teamfights since he can shred an entire enemy team with his ult.

And there is the problem. item 3107 and item 3190 are teamfight items that someone would want in the mid to late game while item 3504 item 3109 and item 3050 are all items meant to help you and one other person or only your ADC. They would make pretty good power spike items in lane but supports don't HAVE power spike items because they have to use 800 gold on item 2049 850 gold on item 3098/item 3096/item 3097 and 900 or 1100 gold on tier two boots for a potential 2750 gold. So by the time a support has bought all of those it is mid game and they want to buy items that help as many people as possible since teams will start grouping then.

The issue with item 3107 and item 3190 is not that they are OP or just too good to pass up, it's that they are teamfight items that can help out an entire team and by the time a support can start thinking about buying unique items it is mid game, when teamfights start happening, whereas the other support items either only help 1 or 2 people or are specialized in who they help (Most mages and tanks won't get much benefit from item 3504 as an example). And since games usually don't get to late game right now, that one item or two items you get after sighstone, tier two boots, and tier two gold income item, item 3107 and item 3190 are usually the last fully completed support items you get.

So TLDR/ for everyone, the problem is that supports have to buy a bunch of particular items in the early game and by the time they do, mid game has rolled around and so their next purchases are teamfight oriented items that help as many people as possible.

102 Comments

needHymn51 votes

[deleted]

SaltyToplaneGoat11 votes

So, play the only naked champion that can utilize a deathcap: Nami

Or am I forgetting any other naked champs?

Votable Jester8 votes

KogMaw Zac

WolfBV4 votes

Varus

Sraeg201326 votes

He isn't naked, silly.

He has a scarf.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

And a necklace.

Sraeg20138 votes

And that weird belt-thingy on his chest that coincidentally covers his nipples.

Oelyk2 votes

Damn.

Golden Tager X2 votes

Anivia Chogath Fizz KogMaw Malphite Maokai Zac

Hahahahyena2 votes

Zyra

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Tbh she is a plant. Most clothes are made from plant fiber, save for those based on wool. Therefore when she has plant parts covering her she is technically clothed.

The fact that she is also is a plant makes her more clothing than human tbh...

SirLapse17 votes

Ardent Censer actually is used by a number of champions like Sona who can pass it onto more than one teammate pretty regularly. Not every support is geared to do that however, and I do think that's appropriate.

Knight's Vow fits better ironically on top lane tanks from what I've seen, but its stats are pretty low so it's not built that often for when you want to peel. Galio makes the item look really good. It does give sustain to tanks based on whoever s/he is bound to, so it's not a bad item in its nature, it's just not really that good of a support item.

Zeke's Herald honestly is confused. The item is bad because you can't control when you're able to use it, and it's nothing like Warlord's Bloodlust where something general like healing occurs. It's a powerful effect and the item's strength is based off of whether you get the effect or not. An idea a friend of mine had was that you'd gain charges by moving/being in combat with the person you're bound to, and at max charges the item would disable its ability to bind to champions but allow you to use the 100 stack effect by activating the item again. Would really make the item quite insane considering BoRK ADCs aren't that crit-heavy early on.

Mikael is just...outdated. The same issue I have with Chalice is the issue with Mikael's. MR on a support that you specifically have to dedicate to get an item just feels like a mid laner kind of thing since you're down there fighting with an AD champion. If Chalice didn't build off of a Null Mantle and just gave MP regen, its items would be in a much better state. Mikael already gives 10% more healing/shield power than Redemption, so it does have its niche.

Big Lincoln5 votes

agree, feel like I said something about this before but it went unnoticed

there's not much incentive to buy knight's vow, for instance, because providing some damage resistance to one person at a time is hardly as valuable as negating damage for your whole team

I still hold that Redemption and Locket are the problem items because they're so valuable, but it's fairly clear why the only other item that sees play with these is Censer, since it synergizes with those items so well (teamwide attack/sustain boost). it's also an issue because supports have to have at least 4 of the same items every game item 2049 item 3107 item 3190 item 1001 and most will upgrade their support item, so usually 5 items. It's not surprising that the supports will go for the most efficient items in this situation

chipndip16 votes

Upvoted. Idk what Riot was thinking when they made Redemption without removing Locket or changing the active. We're literally double dipping in aoe sustain/damage mitigation while scratching our heads on why this combo's so strong. Even if we buffed the other items, they'd have to become absolutely massive to be able to touch this combo.

RogueWill5 votes

Problem is people optimizing the items poorly. People keep rushing item 2049 blindly (ironically) without taking in consideration the match up.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

When should someone buy Sightstone then?

Chaos Milk Tea8 votes

sometimes you don't finish it in lane. In matchups where you are pushed back, focusing gold on defense and taking turns warding the closest bush can be a better use of gold. Some supports and ADCs can drop traps and the like in the bushes to hold vision and better focus the lane gold. Once you are out of lane though the sight stone IS necesarry. I'm not saying avoid sight stone til the last second possible, but it doesn't have to b ea rush.

RogueWill2 votes

I usually get it right about the time the first turret falls. And focus on gold for the lane. Exceptions obviously occur, you coudl rush it if you are expecting a camp on your lane (for example early gank junglers) or if you plan to roam a lot (with a 2v1 adc like ez or cait) so they can be leftbehind without worrying about a colapse on them

Xikini3 votes

I don't buy sightstone until I'm level 9, and swap my trinket to the scanner or sometimes the farsight

Heckin Support4 votes

{quoted}

I don't buy sightstone until I'm level 9, and swap my trinket to the scanner or sometimes the farsight

Depends entirely on how the lane is going, who's the jungler, and if the mid laner is roaming a lot.

Eedat5 votes

The issue with item 3107 and item 3190 is not that they are OP or just too good to pass up

I agree with some of the points you made, but these items are blatantly overtuned. Without a doubt OP

Erockandroll4 votes

To be fair, you probably can't, make those items a significant option in the laning phase, with out them becoming must buys. Cause that would legit, be the most help to the ADC at that time.

Now in principle, what would make those items particularly good, is if those mechanics that effect the duo lane combo, held the same weight as those team fight items. The issue with that however, is putting all your eggs in the ADC basket, and right now we don't really have a "protect the carry" meta going on. (Though redemption and Locket may be encouraging the teamfight meta) The other issue is that with the ADC being a glass cannon, the support would have to have the people and protection to insure that combo doesn't falter. ( And Tank supports don't seem to be especially meta, though their are a few.)

Silverjust4 votes

The next Class update should change the Enchanter/Support Class and Items What you described is the exact problem

Annoxis3 votes

The next class update will most likely be DIvers though.

I think OP and you made a good point, and I actually hate the game design thought process behind support : we wanted five players on the map but had only four sources of gold income, so we forced all the utility, the only thing we could give for a cheap price, available into one class that get to do all the important work (warding and saving ADCs), but can't do a single thing alone besides these.

Silverjust1 votes

Oh don't get me wrong, I like playing support (premade) I just think the role would be more interesting, if you could buy an Item for Lane. My Idea a while ago was to give the basesupportitems a passive, that reduces the price of Sightstone. The problem with this is, riot uses the "high" sightstone costs, so the support can't buy it to early and give botlane perfect vision all the time.

Does sombody have an Idea to fix this?

x0wolfie0x3 votes

Well i mean, certain potions have a level requirement, so average out across games when exactly sightstones get purchased based on gold levels and add that level as a requirement?

Annoxis2 votes

Deleting Sightstone, giving an upgrade to yellow trinket that work the same way, with keeping in mind the fact that everyone could use it, eventually lower level requirement for trinket upgrade to allow support to actually benefit from them, problem solved.

Vision should definitively not be the job of one people.

PureSilvrr2 votes

One of the most beautiful sights ive seen in this game was our whole half of the map lit up with 3+ control wards and many many normal ones.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Could make it so building the tier 3 gold income item would upgrade your trinket into a Sighstone and keep it so long as you have that item. Yes it would lock you out of getting a sweeper but it would also remove some pressure from support being the only person fighting the vision war as the rest of the team would need to participate in getting rid of wards.

Silverjust3 votes

I think supports should be able to place wards and destroy them Supports should not be the only ones playing the vision game, but it was and should be their thing

PB4UAME3 votes

If anything supports could use an additional trinket slot for storing a pink ward after they have six items, or so that they don't have to forego component items on backs because they effectively have 5 item slots instead of 6 as it stands. Losing their trinket on top of generally being down an item slot, and losing the ability to clear wards without a pink would be crippling.

Dominick Destine4 votes

{quoted}

The issue with item 3107 and item 3190 is not that they are OP or just too good to pass up

.... u wot m8?

That's literally the issue. They are too good to pass up, they are OP.

SpecterVonBaren13 votes

Congrats, you ignored everything I said and gave no useful input.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

Well, what you said actually works as an argument for the claim that they're too powerful as well. Yes, they're bought because they're the best options for the teamfight-oriented midgame. And yes, you're locked out of the other options because by that point they aren't really options over these two items.

So yes, Locket and Redemption are too strong for the point in the game where a support can actually start building items. They are overpowered compared to the other supportive items. This guy didn't say anything to the contrary of your point, and he didn't say they need to be nerfed. A buff/change to all the other options to make them viable options for mid game is in order, and that stems from the overwhelming advantage locket and redemption have over them in every single game.

And so no, he didn't ignore what you said. He completely restated your conclusion in a way that retains the same meaning.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Them being overtunned would be debatable if there were other support items that had teamwide effects, but these two are the only ones with that kind of effect on multiple people. If everyone only bought one AD item or one armor item out of the myriad of choices in every game then you could say those items would be overpowered. Locket and Redemption though are the only team support items because all of the others effect only one person.

His comment gave no reasoning for why he believed them to be OP, it didn't try to explain how someone would pick something like Zeke's over those other two items in the mid game, even if they were all balanced to the same level of power.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

What you're describing is exactly what happened when Ravenous Hydra was first introduced. It was the only "team" auto attack item, and everyone and their mother bought it.

He didn't need to give an explanation because your original post explained it pretty well. Although I'll still agree that his comment was completely pointless, it wasn't wrong.

The fact they are the only team wide support items is the thing that makes them overpowered. It's not what they do that's too strong, it's what the other items _don't. _

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

Maybe help me out, but couldn't it be argued that Ardent can be applied to multiple tem members, in the case of Sona or Soraka? Or if you build a locket then Ardent I think it applies to all you heal or shield.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Those are specific cases where a champion can buff all their allies and in the case of Soraka it's only on her ult, further, not everyone synergies with the buff it gives, most mages get absolutely nothing out of it and most tanks have such low attack speed that just 20-35% increased attack speed won't make them amazing damage dealers although it helps them more than mages.

There's a reason that the generic support abilities you see on almost all of them are heals and shields, because health is always going to be the stat that everyone shares in common (Unless Riot makes a champ that has mana for health or something) and so abilities that give health or faux health (shields) will always be the safest and most reliable choice for a class that has to be frugal with their money.

KoKoboto3 votes

Nice observation, I would refrain from using "must" when it comes to buying Locket and Redemption. As you said these items are good early because teamfights begin when you got enough gold for those items. You don't need to buy them though you can enhance your champions abilities by stats or other active items in order to do what your champion does best.

I think Mikael's Crucible and Zeke's Herald are pretty bad though.

+1 regardless

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

There's really just no reason to buy Mikaels Crucible ever since they removed the heal. Its stats are just way too low to justify getting for a CC cleanse that might accomplish nothing since they could get hit by further CC or just die to whatever wave of burst follows it. It's amazing how far its fallen, I remember it being the must buy for supports in Season 4 but now its almost as bad as Ohmwrecker.

notice me Sin pi3 votes

i only play support, n i've never realized the actual reason the entire time. Now im not even sure why im not in bronze.

rtbf2216514123 votes

The biggest problem with those items is that you can actually be useful as a support. Man, what I bad idea!

Kappa

Supports were nerfed into oblivion. No wonder people don't want to play them. You played MMORPG's before? Yeah, supports are actually visibly useful there. Not here. But Rito decided they needed more nerfs by removing gold income from Aram. This clearly brings more people to main support, right? Aram is also used to practice teamfights. What the hell were they thinking?

Anyway, it's dumb that they are complaining about these items. Locket can give a lot of shields. Okay, but it doesn't matter if it's only on one other person than yourself. Redemption damage? Oh no, supports doing damage! Never thought Annie Fiddlesticks Lux Karma Malzahar Zyra Brand can't be used as supports.

Teemo

Automated Riven2 votes

Locket can shield an entire team.

BLACK REALM GOD3 votes

this post is exactly right.

this is why sightstone and income items are harmful to the game. they need to be trinkets only or a mastery tree exclusive.

Rıots Bad Client2 votes

How overpowered if there was an Item that increase the CC of some abilities. AND OR extend the effect/Lower the channel of an Abilities.

FOR ALL 3. I'll use Morgana

Q: Extend the Root duration to increase it by 25% So, if its 1 sec, it becomes 1.2 seconds.

W: The poison on the floor has an extended life time on the floor so It can be a 1.5 seconds longer.

E: The life time Increased as well

R: Lower the Cool Down of the channel. to 2 seconds Plus maybe a higher slow rate.

NOW. I'll say OBVIOUSLY I'm not saying Apply ALL on everything. So it can just be slows.

lets say Morg slows for 20% with her ult. It can increase it by 35% or something.

just a thought, anyone wanna expand on this?

Mama Soraka1 votes

If I remember it properly there is (or was) an item in dota2 that a number of characters can buy that upgrades their ult. I always thought that was a cool idea, and its kinda similar to yours. I bring it up because it shows this sort of idea can work, and I think your suggestion for a different scaling vector on items is interesting.

PureSilvrr2 votes

I feel like a lot of this is true, but

  1. Why buy the 2nd tier gold item instead of just leaving it at tier one and heading directly for sightstone.
  2. Most of the other items are underwhelming or have flaws.
  • I feel like item 3109 is actually fine
  • item 3504 Is ok also
  • item 3222 needs either a buff or some changes, because I never look to buy this, and when I do either someone has item 3140 or I never get to use it.
  • item 3050 If we could just hold the charges at 100, then release them like an active, it would be way better.
  • item 3174 Idk what to even do with this
  • Then we have those Semi-Support items that can be build as sup but are usually built in other lanes like item 3001 item 3110 item 3512 item 3060 item 3041 item 3056 item 3800
rtbf2216514123 votes

{quoted}

  • item 3174 Idk what to even do with this

Lux shield procs the heal twice (launching and coming back) if you have enough stacks.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

The issue with those support items is that everyone assumes they are godlike must-buy items.

Karma item 2301 item 3020 item 3089 item 3174 item 3504 Last item is whatever.

But people always rush the other two because MUH TEAMFIGHTS and everyone herp derps into teamfights no matter what.

Off Meta Evan2 votes

an actually reasonable, well thought out post on gameplay? i never thought i'd see the day.

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