I love playing with toxic teammates! NO SARCASM!

SirPurrr··47 votes·2,739 views

I think the punishment system is totally broken in edge cases. It doesn't differentiate between toxicity and disagreement well. By default, it considers you the toxic player if you say something others are offended by even if they have zero objective basis. It encourages crybullies and stifles constructive speech because the AI is not smart enough and reports have too much power (with the accuser having no way of getting a fair trial or even a way to defend himself realistically - support will just parrot random banalities). If you say that someone's build is objectively wrong because it completely skips VS vs a team building MR, people get mad. They have absolutely no basis to get mad and that's a reflection of their inability to handle feedback (a sign of emotional immaturity). Just because you're direct and confident in your statements, others will often retaliate with "but you're 2-6" or "stfu I think this is best and idgaf what you want" or "let me play my champion and stop harassing me" (lol?). I've talked about it in many other threads before. It's a joke that crybullies can create so much damage and they're given a powerful platform through the report system.

If someone doesn't resort to personal attacks but is simply direct and honest, he is at odds with the game's report system. Those qualities are actively discouraged in this game. Even defending others from unfair abuse, such as saying "our jungler isn't your slave and spam pinging your lane as well as berating him in all chat will not help" is likely to get retaliatory reports. Riot is lying when they say that reports have no merit by themselves. It's patently false as other edge cases have shown especially as it relates to non-meta picks. Reports matter a lot and change the sensitivity thresholds. It still counts against you if there are a lot of other crybullies feeling offended by everything which isn't sugarcoated and super delicate. It's not even practical to meet that standard in a real time game unless you die a lot.

**However, the Honor system is a great idea. ** Positive reinforcement is just more effective in general. It empowers players and gives them something to aspire to. Psychological studies show the power of feeling a sense of empowerment/autonomy over and over. It's probably why positive reinforcement is far more effective and creates more lasting change instead of an annoyed fear response. More importantly, it's easier to recognize positive behavior and build a system around that with HUMAN INPUT (which is much more likely to be reliable for positive actions than negative ones since people aren't objective when they're pissed off (whether the emotion is justified or not)). Furthermore, if there is unfair bias in who is honored (maybe it's too often people champions with game changing ults.), it's still just a perk and not going to stop you from chatting or playing the game. Basically, the damage is far lower when there are issues and it doesn't stifle expression etc.

So WHY do I prefer playing with a few toxic players? It's much easier to get honored! :D **Toxic players give me a chance to rise to the occasion and demonstrate my emotional maturity. I can guide the team towards a more positive path Lux - it's like a minigame (think of it as trying to keep a car on the racetrack). ** If there are 1-2 toxic players on my team, I can try to defuse the situation. Even just being a normal player and not giving up often gets me honors for "tiltproof." When it's 4+ toxic players, it's a problem though. The team will be too bitter to honor anyone and I won't be able to defuse anything but that's rare.

37 Comments

Beas7ie16 votes

No no no. The system DOES NOT consider you the "toxic player" if you try to give some help or advice so long as you do it NICELY. If someone has a bad build saying something like "Hey blankity blank X isn't really good or him or her, maybe you should try Y item instead" even if they disagree and are like "STFU I'll build what I want" the system still won't consider you "toxic" as long as you were nice about your advice and/or don't constantly harass people about their builds.

SirPurrr25 votes

{quoted}

No no no. The system DOES NOT consider you the "toxic player" if you try to give some help or advice so long as you do it NICELY. If someone has a bad build saying something like "Hey blankity blank X isn't really good or him or her, maybe you should try Y item instead" even if they disagree and are like "STFU I'll build what I want" the system still won't consider you "toxic" as long as you were nice about your advice and/or don't constantly harass people about their builds.

Do you see how indirect and needlessly wordy that is? I shouldn't have to do that. Being direct doesn't mean you're being rude and if people interpret it that way, that's their problem. Unfortunately, it becomes mine too when they report me. I'd say something like "X is bad because they have MR. Get VS instead." We're playing a REAL TIME game and I shouldn't have to coddle players. It's idiotic that some interpret this as rudeness or me being bossy just because I don't add a few maybes and other useless filler.

I absolutely hate how the report system works atm because it's so BS and over the top. It enforces what people want, not just what is justified since there aren't any real standards (the Summoner's Code is just generalities and vague ideas which can be stretched to cover nearly anything and thus doesn't protect anyone being accused unfairly). The average person isn't as direct as me and may be annoyed by it. I get it. I'm trying to be effective and communicate how I think is authentic for me. The game has no right to punish me for disagreeing with someone profusely or being very direct (at least it doesn't seem legitimate to me unless I use ad hominems, harass etc.). It's not a justified basis for a report but because we as the community decide what's OK through our report agreement + frequency, really stupid things can be enforced. It feels so invasive and Orwellian but that's beside the point.

I ranted a bit about it but the main point I was trying to get across is that we can use legitimately toxic teams as a positive experience too by being a lot better ourselves and not stooping to their level or tilting. That by itself will often get you honors and I never give up if there's even a hint of a chance. In that case, I will be far less direct and much more sugary because those players have proven incapable of being adults/managing their emotions. It becomes required to improve the situation but I shouldn't have to be that careful in normal conversation just like you won't talk to an adult the same as a 5 year old. I'd probably spend way too much typing and thinking about the optimal words to use. That's why my solution to the broken report system was basically not talking unless it's something clearly positive. I think that's awful from the view of self-expression/constructive feedback/teamwork etc. and it feels very alienating. It disgusts me that I have to resort to such restricted communication but that's all this community can handle. It's unfortunate but I can't change reality so I've adapted and now I have level 3 honor.

Beas7ie7 votes

{quoted}

Do you see how indirect and needlessly wordy that is? I shouldn't have to do that. Being direct doesn't mean you're being rude and if people interpret it that way, that's their problem. Unfortunately, it becomes mine too when they report me. I'd say something like "X item is bad vs their MR heavy comp. Get VS instead." We're playing a REAL TIME game and I shouldn't have to coddle players. It's idiotic that some interpret this as rudeness or me being bossy just because I don't add a few maybes and other useless filler.

If you want to be more direct you can still do that. Bringing up your example saying something like "X item is bad for their team comp" still is NOT toxic and you won't be punished so long as you're not an asshole with your other comments. You're giving serious advice. It's up to them whether or not to accept it. Even if they claim saying "X item is bad for their team comp" you're NOT going to be punished even if EVERYONE reports you for that.

LaughingStapler4 votes

{quoted}

If you want to be more direct you can still do that. Bringing up your example saying something like "X item is bad for their team comp" still is NOT toxic and you won't be punished so long as you're not an asshole with your other comments. You're giving serious advice. It's up to them whether or not to accept it. Even if they claim saying "X item is bad for their team comp" you're NOT going to be punished even if EVERYONE reports you for that.

If they argue and say that their build is actually better and you then say "That's wrong. VS is always best here and X item doesn't make sense", you'd be surprised at how many players lash out and report you. If you just say the original statement, maybe you're right but if you continue the discussion with the same directness, it won't be. You'd have to say something like "X is usually a great item but in this case, it may be better for the team as a whole if you get VS. Do it for us please. :D xD"

Kei1434 votes

But them reporting you for that doesn't matter, cos the system would filter that out as a false report.

Kanzler3 votes

You have way more faith in their system than I do

Sraeg20132 votes

The system is "learning". If enough people start considering a specific behaviour toxic, others will start getting punished for.

That is the exact case of all those "off-meta troll picks" bans.

Kei1431 votes

Yes it is learning, but those off-meta strategy punishments were manual punishments, not from the IFS.

You would never be punished for gameplay criticism, but certainly for individual harassment, and that is a fine line between them.

OP's speech while direct, would not (and should not) cross that line cos its not harassment and not enough people report those for it.

Beas7ie1 votes

{quoted}

If they argue and say that their build is actually better and you then say "That's wrong. VS is always best here and X item doesn't make sense", you'd be surprised at how many players lash out and report you. If you just say the original statement, maybe you're right but if you continue the discussion with the same directness, it won't be. You'd have to say something like "X is usually a great item but in this case, it may be better for the team as a whole if you get VS. Do it for us please. :D xD"

If they start arguing then that's when you just let it go. You tried to give them advice, they didn't like it. Starting an argument at that point and going back and forth with "you're wrong" "no you" is just going to end badly. Some people you just can't help. You tried, they didn't like it. At that point, worry about your own build and role and do your best to carry them if that's what it takes.

You can give advice so long as you're not a jerk about it. It's still up to them whether or not to listen. If they're adament about doing their own thing, then you just have to accept that and not push it. Maybe they have their own plan, maybe they'll catch on later, just don't try and force it on them.

notice me Sin pi1 votes

{quoted}

No no no. The system DOES NOT consider you the "toxic player" if you try to give some help or advice so long as you do it NICELY.

is it even possible to define [nicely] in terms of coding? becuz i dont think so, unless riot puts in soo much resource in developing the algorithm it's basically an artificial intelligence on par with siri and/or cortana at bare minimum.

And we all know that aint gonna happen

EDIT: and based on your response, it's obvious that you have zero experience on programming. ZERO experience. If you are going to downvote me and give a counter argument, then make a valid counter argument involving the coded algorithm or other relevant stuff instead of assuming that computers have human brain.

Beas7ie1 votes

[{quoted}](name=notice me Sin pi,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=gegG411V,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-08-24T01:44:40.938+0000)

is it even possible to define [nicely] in terms of coding? becuz i dont think so, unless riot puts in soo much resource in developing the algorithm it's basically an artificial intelligence on par with siri and/or cortana at bare minimum.

And we all know that aint gonna happen

Then you didn't think very hard, if at all. It's not that hard to give constructive advice. For example instead of saying "Hey _______ stop feeding" or "your build sucks" try something like "Hey, just hug that turret I'm on my way up to help" and "X item isn't really all that great for that champ or against your lane opponent, try building Y item"

Whether or not they listen to that advice is up to them and some people you just can't up. At the very least though wording your advice definitely will NOT be flagged as toxic or negative.

The rules of chat boil down to pretty much one simple thing. Don't be an asshole. It's really not that hard.

Lock On8 votes

Shit-talking helps make the game a bit more enjoyable, in my taste. Those who don't want to hear it can mute, but I'll never understand the coddling babysitter mentality Riot has in their policy. I have a more enjoyable experience playing call of duty with fewer rewards and more whiny shits because there's hardly any restraints (should definitely avoid racism and whatnot, obviously.)

DarkRitual4 votes

Shit-talking is fine. Harassment is not. Most players who shit-talk do not notice when they cross the line. Them having the abiliy to mute is not an excuse to act like a complete shithead.

ModPeriscope5 votes

"Most of the punishment system is broken in edge cases"

I feel edge cases are probably a small portion of those reported, based on what we see on the boards.

If you like playing with toxic players, that's great! You're free to report or not report what you want.

SirPurrr8 votes

{quoted}

"Most of the punishment system is broken in edge cases"

I feel edge cases are probably a small portion of those reported, based on what we see on the boards.

If you like playing with toxic players, that's great! You're free to report or not report what you want.

It's not that I find toxic games more enjoyable necessarily. The fun part is the extra challenge and a chance to demonstrate the advantages of having a thicker skin. Toxic players are just a randomized element like which Dragon spawns. Games which aren't toxic don't challenge players emotionally so my normal behavior won't be viewed as especially worthy of commendation. That changes in the context of a toxic game. You suddenly look like a beacon of positivity just for focusing on the game, not giving up and making useful comments which don't resort to all chat crying or ad hominems. If you manage to defuse the situation, it's pretty much-guaranteed honors. Use toxic games as a chance for personal growth and differentiation.

ModPeriscope2 votes

That's a weird way to view toxicity, but it sounds great. Probably a more optimistic view of toxic players than most of us have. Best of luck, summoner.

exigentomic4 votes

{quoted}

"Most of the punishment system is broken in edge cases"

I feel edge cases are probably a small portion of those reported, based on what we see on the boards.

If you like playing with toxic players, that's great! You're free to report or not report what you want.

There have been suspensions based on the following trick (really dumb ones). Don't fall for it!!! A toxic player will scream profanities, racist epithets etc. and then when people understandably call for reports or ask him to stop raging, he'll innocently say "How have I raged? He was probably toxic before he did that and was already getting reported (he knows it too) and so he is especially toxic now with very clear proof which is fresh in everyone's minds. So he then types "Please show me the quote." Then, some poor saps quote what he said and get a temporary ban as well as him. It's hilarious that this works and also sad. We shouldn't have keyword punishments but apparently, that's a thing because of REASONS. This game was MUCH better when Tribunal existed and people could be judged by a community of their peers. Right now, the ones making the reports and accusations are also the ones judging you (the AI is a factor too but isn't enough) so how can we expect objectivity? Tribunal existed exactly for edge cases.

ModPeriscope1 votes

Yep. Don't repeat toxic players, don't try to reason with them. Most of the time, it's a waste of time.

Synnx74 votes

Remember when someone here got perma banned because he said to himself " Fuck me, i fucked up so hard this time! " . Riot unbanned him while also looking like shit

rtbf2256182414 votes

Just got off a Riot Support ticket on a Chat Ban i had where i explained this exact issue and some of the Support workers told me to piss off and the others avoided the solutions/questions i proposed, just parroting their "Finality" of my punishment as if i was denying or something which i was definetly not.

Seriously frustrating.

Zëd Lęppelin3 votes

Lol. You're probably the guy saying something like 'omfg this noob Janna, hasn't even got ardent censer pls uninstall and kys' then acting the victim and saying you're trying to give advice when you get penalised.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

Eh I think they might be a little harsh with reports but I'd rather that than there being no issue with keyboard warriors typing at each other instead of playing with their flame bringing down the morale of the team

No one should be in trouble for suggesting builds or playstyles, its simply suggestions and in some contexts can be bossy behavior, but that's not "unsportsmanlike" conduct. However I think saying "Wow you suck" would qualify as negative behavior, shouldn't be banworthy but that negative behavior should escalate into being harassment if you're just going on and on and on about how a specific teammate is terrible and should uninstall and whatnot. Even if you aren't attacking anything about their character or insulting their intelligence, you're insulting their gameplay without being constructive and repeating that over and over is a targeted, negative behavior.

I see people regularly be like "Wow I called someone bad/said gg ez and got banned" and that's rarely ever the full story, but if you do that all the time it makes sense it would escalate since you're regularly being negative. Personally though I think it should only become a ban when targeted harassment is the problem, I know mute exists but it doesn't stop you from remembering what you just read and some players have qualms about muting because they don't want to cut communication in a team game. Believe it or not the changes Riot has made has gradually made the League community less toxic, maybe they can pull the sensitivity of reports back but they've gone mostly in the right direction from what I can tell.

Narzal2 votes

I agree with the title, but not the honor wait for weeks, months to get a reward feeling feel, saw the patch for honor, thought it was going just to allow you to honor multiple people or the enemy, nope, just notify you if you missed honor cause you exited the lobby fast, like everyone usually does... and was utterly disappointed.

The notification was really used for when you got a flurry of variety of honor and that everyone thought out who to honor usually based on what you said at the end lobby and what you built at the end of your bad game, let's be real here, honor sucks. it'll never be good as the old one and it seems very forcedful of players to act good when they just aren't honest with themselves like the toxic players, eventually they'll explode and all that honor is meaningless cause you lose all of it for being reported by those with no emotional intelligence.

The report system is like a trial, where anything you say can and will be held against you, so you just have to silver tongue everything or joke around teasing the haters, also I'll be honest with you, the way you worded it defused bothers me, generally I see you as smallfry (lol I'm sorry) when you come between 2 people arguing like settle down u 2, I strive to know who would win the heated argument for entertainment purposes because it's just enjoyable.

Sure you may have calmed them down a bit, but they are tense, on the edge you know, holding back because of you getting in the way, you didn't inspire them to focus/play better, there's not always going to be a person for them to be defused since they didn't over come it. and the 4+toxic players, if you can't beat em, join em to lead em and make the most of it, I had this Draven and Swain doing badly, getting flamed by their team telling him vision is gonna make you win bs, and he said something Confucius like. My team told that we need vision to win, so here I am,Vision is the key to a pathway of Victory, while the swain said, and here are the salty rivers of my people, to guide us along the elusive way, 6item 2049 &item 3070 lol

AetherArising3 votes

{quoted}

I agree with the title, but not the honor wait for weeks, months to get a reward feeling feel, saw the patch for honor, thought it was going just to allow you to honor multiple people or the enemy, nope, just notify you if you missed honor cause you exited the lobby fast, like everyone usually does... and was utterly disappointed.

The notification was really used for when you got a flurry of variety of honor and that everyone thought out who to honor usually based on what you said at the end lobby and what you built at the end of your bad game, let's be real here, honor sucks. it'll never be good as the old one and it seems very forcedful of players to act good when they just aren't honest with themselves like the toxic players, eventually they'll explode and all that honor is meaningless cause you lose all of it for being reported by those with no emotional intelligence.

The report system is like a trial, where anything you say can and will be held against you, so you just have to silver tongue everything or joke around teasing the haters, also I'll be honest with you, the way you worded it defused bothers me, generally I see you as smallfry (lol I'm sorry) when you come between 2 people arguing like settle down u 2, I strive to know who would win the heated argument for entertainment purposes because it's just enjoyable.

Sure you may have calmed them down a bit, but they are tense, on the edge you know, holding back because of you getting in the way, you didn't inspire them to focus/play better, there's not always going to be a person for them to be defused since they didn't over come it. and the 4+toxic players, if you can't beat em, join em to lead em and make the most of it, I had this Draven and Swain doing badly, getting flamed by their team telling him vision is gonna make you win bs, and he said something Confucius like. My team told that we need vision to win, so here I am,Vision is the key to a pathway of Victory, while the swain said, and here are the salty rivers of my people, to guide us along the elusive way, 6item 2049 &item 3070 lol

If your honor level only dropped 1 level per serious penalty, the honor time-between-levelling was slightly increased, and a meter was added, that'd likely be the best situation.

Someone who makes it to honor 5 but has a tyler1 fit of toxicity will get penalized sure as hell, but only dropped to hon4, and can grind back to 5 muuuch more easily.

The slight increase in timespan would compensate for people who stay honor 2-3-4 and can just get away with a penalty a week and just play enough to get honored up

Adding a progress bar would make it muuuch more satisfying to know "Oh yeah i'm close to levelling my honor up, sick", Or "Well, i'm only a bit into the progress but anything is better than nothing! Right now its more like "WELL I HOPE I EVENTUALLY HIT LVL4 LA DEE DAH BLINDLY STUMBLING THROUGH GAMES WITH A FORCED SMILE ON MY FACE WOOOOOWEEEEEE YAY HAPPYFUNTIMES LOL ECKS DEE XDDDDD honor me please i havent slept in days"

Also, the whole "Reports are like a trial, and EVERYTHING you say will be held against you too fuckin true mate

too fuckin true. -Aether

Narzal1 votes

Sadly you only get 4 punishments, with the 4th a ban , the 3rd 1, 14 day ban removes all honor so if you were about hit the honor lvl5 at the end of the month you get cucked and it's silly that you can jump tiers of punishment but have to play months to drop a tier down.

"Reformed!!" kappa.

MagikarpIsBoss2 votes

I just got a 14 day ban because of one game. 2 people on my team were toxic as hell for no reason. One was feeding and the other was calling the others and I racist shit the whole game. Because I was annoyed (the one that was feeding was doing it in my lane vs a draven, which made the game hell for me) I did say some "toxic" things. According to what riot told me, they said to ignore it and report them. Its pretty hard to ignore someone inting your lane on purpose. I checked and these players got no ban. However, I got a 14 day ban for toxicity from one game. My worst insult was probably calling them autistic or something like that. Apparently with no prior punishments that is bannable but being racist and inting is perfectly ok? I even got honored by the other player in the game (one person also went afk) so it was only the two people being toxic that reported me. I didnt say much in all chat either so no one on the enemy team would have. I got a 14 day ban from two false reports in a single game. If you think that Riot's ban system is fair/ reasonable, the I have no idea what to say to you.

Beas7ie1 votes

{quoted}

I just got a 14 day ban because of one game. 2 people on my team were toxic as hell for no reason. One was feeding and the other was calling the others and I racist shit the whole game. Because I was annoyed (the one that was feeding was doing it in my lane vs a draven, which made the game hell for me) I did say some "toxic" things. According to what riot told me, they said to ignore it and report them. Its pretty hard to ignore someone inting your lane on purpose. I checked and these players got no ban. However, I got a 14 day ban for toxicity from one game. My worst insult was probably calling them autistic or something like that. Apparently with no prior punishments that is bannable but being racist and inting is perfectly ok? I even got honored by the other player in the game (one person also went afk) so it was only the two people being toxic that reported me. I didnt say much in all chat either so no one on the enemy team would have. I got a 14 day ban from two false reports in a single game. If you think that Riot's ban system is fair/ reasonable, the I have no idea what to say to you.

I understand that can be infuriating to deal with, but that still doesn't excuse you raging and flaming them. This is just a playground fight at school where the kids are like "He started it!" "No, he started it!" The teachers don't care WHO started it. They're going to punish everyone involved.

In your case using the word autistic was most likely what triggered the 14 day ban. That along with things like racial slurs, homophobic remarks and stuff like "kill yourself" are ALWAYS an immediate 14 day ban. This is also your "final warning" as ANY punishment in the near future WILL be a perma. Even if it's an offense that would normally just be a chat restriction.

If you really want to bring attention to the trolls, save the replays and manually send them in to Support.

ChuShoe2 votes

Sorry, all I read was "yay, free key fragments!"

Joking aside, the spam pinging jungler and "the jungler isn't your slave" statement is all too familiar to me. If you're calling me, a jungler main bad, because you're feeding, grow some thicker skin, and try to do better, and play defensively until I can come and help you. It's not my job to win lane for you, I'm just supposed to make a play happen to the best of my ability.

HentEye1 votes

The report system actually decides to take action on reports if the user says a trigger word(s), and based on prior offenses.

SoMuchSpaghetti1 votes

instead of stating your opinions bring out empirical facts and a hypothesis. otherwise, you're just talking shit, and we learn nothing.

Praiseful1 votes

Then How about spam ping? Yes u can mute the ping, but it gets annoying when i see one teammate spam ping for every game. It its just tired to deal with. -. -

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I appreciate a direct, honest player. There's a fine line between that and a rude player, though. The line between "direct" and "rude" is often hotly contested, in my experience.

Being direct can be a negative thing in the right (or wrong?) context. Direct criticism for a teammate that isn't doing well is in that category for me, and I appreciate Riot trying to make a more positive experience for people. I would love to see a specific example of punishment for a player that is just being "honest and direct" so we could have a real case study to discuss.

PinkSalt1 votes

This is all too well written and too true, Riot NEEDS to look at this. This cannot be ignored! I personally think riot should give those an option to talk to the person who decided to ban /punish them for being direct (not even passive aggressive) Rather than keep themselves hidden and make us run to support who, quite frankly, never seem to sympathize or even attempt to understand what exactly went down. I was just in a 9 day argument (awful) in a post with a person who couldn't comprehend literary context, which I think is very important. Which is why the support system REALLY needs to understand it, too.

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