Anti Tank items should not be a default buy

Talamare·Jan 3, 2015·19 votes·1,754 views

The current state of Tank items is one in that they are more or less always a good buy regardless of which target you are attacking

This causes a problem in which they are basically ALWAYS a good idea to buy, since they are always effective. This creates a scenario in which Tanks are inherently countered without an opponent even trying to counter it.

Suggestion Blade of the Ruined King - Passive (Active is fine) Now deals 15% of the target's bonus HP in damage

Last Whisper / Void Staff Now penetrates 50% of the target's bonus Armor / MR

Black Cleaver Max stacks reduced by 1

Wit's End Max stacks reduced by 1

Edit - A very important one slipped my mind, thank you Don Pavoni for mentioning it

Death Fire Grasp - Active now deals 40% of the target's bonus health

and for the sake of completion Liandry's Torment ... Remade... like completely... This item needs to decide what it wants to do...

30 Comments

Duke AnaxJan 3, 20159 votes

I agree, with one exception: Wit's End is flat reduction, it is supposed to be used against targets who don't have much MR and is quite easily countered.

Also Black Cleaver already is weaker in total than LW and it is stacking. I don't think it needs to be reduced.

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4BkmEole,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-03T09:52:45.560+0000)

I agree, with one exception: Wit's End is flat reduction, it is supposed to be used against targets who don't have much MR and is quite easily countered.

Also Black Cleaver already is weaker in total than LW and it is stacking. I don't think it needs to be reduced.

I understand your concerns because you are only seeing things as the current state of affairs, but you need to have foresight in these matters.

If Last Whisper is no longer able to reduce the armor of Squishies, while reducing Armor is still one of the most effective ways of increasing your DPS. What is your alternative?

Notice, how I intentionally did not suggest Black Cleaver be changed to Bonus Armor. Black Cleaver is a team fight orientated item and should remain so, effective against both squishies and tanks. Finally reducing the number of stacks makes more usable on champions who have difficulty reaching the max stacks.

Same concept for Wit's End tho I will admit it is a more niche item, perhaps I should be more concerned with Abyssal Scepter instead.

Duke AnaxJan 3, 20155 votes

No, Abyssal Scepter has the same purpose as Wit's End, except for spells rather than auto attacks.

Even though it's AoE it's not on the same levle as Black Cleaver.

Sightless66Jan 3, 20151 votes

Black Cleaver reduces a percentage. Wit's end reduces a flat amount. Flat reduction is always more effective against squishes than tanks. Percentage reduction is better against tanks than squishies. Abyssal and WIt's end will never be good decisions against enemies who stack MR. In fact, stacking MR is the counter to those items.

I will not buy a wit's end or abyssal scepter to counter MR stacking. Period. It would be a bad decision.

Champion SkinJan 4, 20151 votes

Actually flat reduction is just as effective against squishy as tanks... actually it is more effective against tanks each point of MR/Armor enables you to receive 1 more damage for each 100 hp you have So against an adc with 1500 hp if you reduce their mr by 15 you need to deal 225 less damage to kill the ADC against a tank with 4000 hp if you reduce their mr by 15 you need to deal 600 less damage to kill the Tank

(though in percentages it might be more effective against ADC as they have less Effective health)

NarasimhaJan 3, 20155 votes

Last Whisper / Void Staff Now penetrates 50% of the target's bonus Armor / MR

I can't recall exactly where I saw the response, I'll try and find it, but I do believe even Riot said this was highly unlikely to happen. It makes building Armor and MR almost a trap, since 1/2 of it is basically gone anyway. Combined with your proposed changes to BotRK, this would actually make things worse for tanks.

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I can't recall exactly where I saw the response, I'll try and find it, but I do believe even Riot said this was highly unlikely to happen. It makes building Armor and MR almost a trap, since 1/2 of it is basically gone anyway. Combined with your proposed changes to BotRK, this would actually make things worse for tanks.

There is no need to try to find it, because I believe you.

Tho when you math it out, unless you are INSANELY stacking PURE ARMOR. The new numbers are better for tanks, you need to be pushing around 300 total armor for it to really be better. Then when you think about it, that is exactly what the item is meant to do. To stop people from singlemindedly stacking a single defensive stat. Not to mention that tanks should be properly balancing Health and Armor (and MR).

Perhaps combined the 2 changes become a little excess against tanks, some testing would need to be done. However it is important to remember that anyone who does build both is literally ONLY effective against tanks. Against the other 3~4 people on the enemy team who didn't really buy stats, the items are more or less doing nothing.

Sire HippingtonJan 3, 20153 votes

It'S not about the totall effecktiveness from LW, it'S about psycholigy. With 50%pen, investing any more gold into armor would feel incredible bad. If you are a tank and your enemy has LW, you would pay 2300g for 50 armor if you buy a thornmale, doesn't really soend like a good deal. The point is, why would you bother to further build armor once the carry has a LW? Pure armor/mr items would become pointless. And a carry with 4 items will still have more than enough dps vs squishy targets with the new LW, so you can be sure that carrys still will get it, makeing armor(from items) as a tankstat kinda obsolete.

Sightless66Jan 3, 20151 votes

Tho when you math it out

If we math it out assuming 50% penetration. I don't think there is any reason to assume 50% would be the number chosen, other than that it sounds good. It could easily be higher, and screw tanks harder.

Sire HippingtonJan 3, 20153 votes

While i agree that anti-tank items need changes and shouldn't be a default buy, i don't agree on your suggestions.

: The problem is not really the active damage since the nerf, it's more the overall dps+sustain**+a huge ms boost/slow** The main point of the active is the incredible kiteing/antikiteing it provides, allowing you to abuse the dps, while BotrK is also very convinient to built, providing a strong early powerspik with cutless, a good dps sike in the mid once finished by providing all stats a ad could want(as/ad/strong on-hit/lifesteal/mobillity/slow), while the %damage also scales very great into late. It just gives far to much different things at once, it's the shmoo of league(lucky number slevin). Also, if we compare it to it'S old counter part, madrets bloodrazore: -bloodrazore gave 30 ad, 40%as, 30armor, 4%maxhealth on-hit(magic) for 3850g -BotrK gives 25 ad, 40%as, 12%lifesteal, 8%currenthealth(which is 4% max in average,physical), and a strong active for 3200g So even without the active, BotrK grants better stats for ad-focused champs(lifesteal is better than 30armr for champs that built more ad, and physic damage is better than magic if you built armorpen) while costing less gold. This Item needs some major changes, and not just a lovetap by reduceing the damage of the active vs squishys, which never was very high anyway)
/ : Changeing it to a high %bonus-pen would evt solve the problem of them beeing strong vs squishys, but it would feel horrible if you want to built tanky, any armor/mr you would buy is now 50% less effecktive, same for runes/masteries/in-kit buffs. Want to defend your self vs a talon burst? built randuins, and suddenly LW gives 35%pen(40(50)% with flat(scaleing) runes), bringing twice the pen than Yomuun's and 10 more ad. Want BV vs magic burst? now Void gives more pen than lilandriels without runes or anything while also giving 20 more ap... It would lead to a situation where building tanky feels shitty, especially building a single tankitem on a squishy. I would suggest a system more similar to BC: A stacking armorpen debuff(note pen not shred, so like BC just that only you profite from it, not the rest of your team), maybe even with a growing cadence(for example: 2/4/8/14/22/32%), so it doesn't really ad much to burst, but helps at doing constant dps vs tanks without makeing bonusarmor feel shitty.
: already a rare item, but takeing away 1 max stack isn't a bad idea, however it does need compensation buffs, like either more flat pen or increased ad/hp
Is flatpen and neither used by assains nor adc, not exactly what one could call antitank item, so no changes needed(well, maybe, but not in nerfing but rather buffing it, like a more convinient buildpath and a slightly better late for more gold)
:It's so bad that you didn't even list it. Why does it give flat pen(anti squishy) when it is meant to shred tanks(%dot)? Why does it do current health as a dot after the damage when it is meant for APs which deal the bulk of their damage as upfront burst? If it is meant to give ap-tanks relevant dps, why does it mostly give ap and not health, or cdr or more pen? Why does it reqiure (perma)slows to really be effecktive, kinda forcing you to rylais, which again gives mostly ap and not to much tankiness per gold, makeing it rather suboptimal for tanks?
I prefer old any day(maybe not necessarily with all the stats it gave, but the %health mechanic it had was much better for balance than liandirels)
: so dominant in exploding squishys that people totally forget that it has 15% maxhealth dmage and was originally meant to give mages a way to deal with tanks, as it increases all magic damag to one target(not just your own) and thus allows you to greatly help at focusing down a tanky target as a mage. The problem: highest ap-item(if we ignore some passive effeckts) + cdr, and the %increse amplifys singletarget burst alot. In order to actually help killing a tank instead of exploding squishys, it needs a stacking debuff(like BC) that therefor doesn't support burst alot, but helps with constant focused damage.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 3, 20152 votes

Yasuo : Last whisper is my FAAAVVVVV weapon. 100% bonus armor penetration, here I come. JarvanIV Rammus Taric Braum Malphite Urgot : Oh crap.......

TehNACHOJan 3, 20157 votes

Actually, Percentage Based Penetration stacks multiplicatively, not additively.

So, 75% Penetration methinks?

Stars ShaperJan 3, 20154 votes

Since the nerfs Yasuo can't build LW unless you want to die the moment your ultimate ends.

TalamareJan 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

: Last whisper is my FAAAVVVVV weapon. 100% bonus armor penetration, here I come. : Oh crap.......

if the target has 80 base armor and 220 bonus armor

Old = 123 armor left New = 135 armor left

HomeshakeJan 3, 20152 votes

I really like this idea and the reasoning behind it but this would actually be a nerf to killing tanks if its only 15% bonus, even if the target has 4k health.
currently, it deal 10% of the targets max health. So if a champ had 4k it would deal 400, if a champ had 2k itd deal 200. now if we changed it to 15% bonus health and a champ with 200 base had 4k health than the item would only deal 300 and not 400. I think it would be more reasonable to change it to 25%-30% bonus health making the active decently stronger than before but only if used on tanks with large pools of health. using the active on a squishier target would deal little to no dmg still.

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I really like this idea and the reasoning behind it but this would actually be a nerf to killing tanks if its only 15% bonus, even if the target has 4k health.
currently, it deal 10% of the targets max health. So if a champ had 4k it would deal 400, if a champ had 2k itd deal 200. now if we changed it to 15% bonus health and a champ with 200 base had 4k health than the item would only deal 300 and not 400. I think it would be more reasonable to change it to 25%-30% bonus health making the active decently stronger than before but only if used on tanks with large pools of health. using the active on a squishier target would deal little to no dmg still.

Currently it deals 8% of current health

I am NOT talking about the active...

8% of 4k hp is 320 damage at full that progressively gets reduced eventually dealing 160 when they are at 2k hp, 160 is also how much it will deal to squishies who start at 2k

15% of 4k hp, assuming 2k is bonus hp is 300 damage that does not get reduced as they start taking damage. However against the squishy who bought no hp, it will literally deal 0

Stars ShaperJan 3, 20151 votes

The fact that anti tank items are default buy happens for 2 reasons

Some champions get more benefit from the other stats that item gives compared to other counterparts.
There are many champions that are either basically tankish or build like that forcing you to build an anti tank item in order to counter those guys.

One solution would be to add the enchant system for a larger tier of items and put that and other kind of utilities into those enchants (giving a champion a limit to 1 enchantable item).

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4BkmEole,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-03T09:39:31.886+0000)

The fact that anti tank items are default buy happens for 2 reasons

Some champions get more benefit from the other stats that item gives compared to other counterparts.

There are many champions that are either basically tankish or build like that forcing you to build an anti tank item in order to counter those guys.

One solution would be to add the enchant system for a larger tier of items and put that and other kind of utilities into those enchants (giving a champion a limit to 1 enchantable item).

None of the anti tank items are remarkable for the other stuff they provide Last Whisper and Void staff provide a mediocre amount of their respective stats Black Cleaver is a piddly amount of Health, and only average AD Blade of the Ruined King is just Life Steal and Attack Speed which is easily replaced with... Oh they removed all the other options... Fine then bring back Starks or Malady...

Stars ShaperJan 3, 20151 votes

Actually the main reason you build liandry's torment is because you get HP+AP, Botrk is needed because of attack speed + life steal and BC is the AD counterpart of liandry's.

Ofc the anti tank is a huge factor in it but they are items that combine stats you don't see together in many items and come at relative cheap cost.

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4BkmEole,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T09:57:16.863+0000)

Actually the main reason you build liandry's torment is because you get HP+AP, Botrk is needed because of attack speed + life steal and BC is the AD counterpart of liandry's.

Ofc the anti tank is a huge factor in it but they are items that combine stats you don't see together in many items and come at relative cheap cost.

You need HP and AP? Rod of Ages Rylai Crystal Scepter Ohmwrecker Could even argue that Archangel's staff or Zhonya works as a form of HP with its active

No, the true reason is the Magic Penetration. The passive and HP are a cute little side bonus. Also, I didn't mention Liandry due to the passive being fairly weak.

As far as BOTRK, I agree a Life Steal and Attack Speed item needs to be added in its place

ImHerVoiceJan 3, 20151 votes

Do NOT nerf wits end.

I play shy and I'd be absolutely upset having to deal with the broken AOE mages without a FON in s5.

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

35% Penetration vs 50% Bonus Penetration

80 Armor who buys 100 Armor Old - 117 New - 130

80 Armor who buys 200 Armor Old - 182 New - 180

80 Armor who buys 300 Armor Old - 247 New - 230

So yes, it will counter stackers even harder than the current version does. While being significantly less effective against nonstackers.

The scenario's listed, "Buy Randuin to counter Talon, He buys LW GG" is actually significantly more effective in current version than it would be in new version. Actually in current version Talon would probably buy LW regardless of buying Randuins or any armor, since it would STILL counter you. In the new you would have to buy Randuins AND Thornmail and even then, it would be equally as effective as Live. Only if you bought Randuins AND Thornmail AND Frozen Heart could you really say that Talon buying LW would be REALLY worth it.

Finally, once again - Talon's LW would really only be effective against you, so more than likely he would probably just assassinate someone who didn't decide to stack a ton of armor instead of buying LW. Since LW would be useless against everyone else.

AzlagorJan 3, 20151 votes

I Don't think change stuff to %bonus would be a good solutions. Stacking tank-stats would feel horrible to a point there no one would bother more than 1 item for each tankstats, as any further item would lead to the counteritem becomeing effecktive, and thus reduceing you gain from the respective tnakvalue by 50%, so why would i bother spending for example 2400g on FH if i only get 50 armor for it? I'D rather get some offense instead, leading to a bruiserbuilt with randoins+SV/BV/Locket + 3 off items on any somewhat tanky champion, as any fuurther tank item would feel like wasted gold. Also, why would i play a tank with inbuilt def-boost like ramus or renekton? no-stat tsnkiness would be what you want, so Udyr with shield+lifesteal, Maou with %reduction+selfheal and so on. Tha all would mean even more damage and less tankiness overall than we have now, makeing cc+burrst the dominating meta(as if it already wasn't), as cc is what actually reduces damage.

LW/Void would screw tanks not by beeing bought, but just because it** could eventually** be bought.

missinggraveJan 3, 20151 votes

I'm okay with all of this.

Except I want all the old stats to remain the same when used on Garen.

tempname41567489Jan 3, 20151 votes

I say LW and Void should be 35% bonus pen, not 50%

BudupopsJan 4, 20151 votes

why buff botrk?

TheKingDodoJan 4, 20151 votes

But all damage items are super effective even if it's not their intended use. E.g.: LW/VoidStaff is 100+% effective even if the opponent builds no armor/MR

DaddyBatJan 4, 20151 votes

I see a lot of math but no real life comparisons. I think you still have to field test all these ideas to really have a viable complaint. Remember changes are made not just by complaint but by variable comparison. Personally I'm sad about eve nerfs, but I've moved to other champs to have been nerfed and I have no complaints about their effectiveness because I've never played them prior to the effected changes. If I knew they were stronger before... Well... I'd certainly have some examples of why that was.

astralwitJan 4, 20151 votes

You want to nerf BC and Wit's End... items that are likely UP. I'm glad Riot doesn't take balance suggestions from you. Tanks are fine and most pro teams run one. Carries are supposed to do high damage and tanks are still supposed to melt in 5-10 sec. That's basically the reason carries exist.

TalamareJan 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You want to nerf BC and Wit's End... items that are likely UP. I'm glad Riot doesn't take balance suggestions from you. Tanks are fine and most pro teams run one. Carries are supposed to do high damage and tanks are still supposed to melt in 5-10 sec. That's basically the reason carries exist.

It's reducing an aspect of the item, not the only change that would be required for it.

If that was too complicated, for you to understand... It is called "rebalancing".

You can reduce that part of the item, then provide buffs to the items in different ways.