Can I ask for a different form to the Nerf to TK

ForgottenLuck·Dec 2, 2015·2 votes·462 views

Currently in PBE there has been a nerf to Tk that makes it so that he only get's a speed buff if he is running towards an enemy champion, but could I suggest it to be the other way around, so that he would only gets the buff if he is running away from enemy champions, now I know this will get me some hate with how these boards feel about TK, I myself also find him to b a bit oppressive in solo lane, but when I play TK as a support I prefer him as basically a tanky babysitter and personally like him as such, not such a fan of the concept of "let me eat you to chase" but more as a form of playing "We went to in we must quickly escape". I know the boards won't agree with me but I was kinda hopeful that Riot would.

16 Comments

Sightless66Dec 2, 20153 votes

He's strong enough at being a "tanky babysitter" without the movement speed. He's just doing that job way too well, and there's very little risk involved in it. He can eat someone and run away so fast that it doesn't actually matter whether or not he's tanky. This puts a bit more risk in his main job while still leaving it as his main job. That's good design.

He's still heavily focused towards protecting people with the devour. That's not changing. Eating someone to chase will still be a rare use of the skill, but because it's rare and it's not causing a problem there is no need to hit it. Better to hit the thing he's doing too safely and make him take a risk.

It's a good nerf. This is exactly what they should hit.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

I disagree since they could nerf many other aspects of him to make his solo lane less oppressive in the current form it is in, but as for this point, he has a rather wide hitbox allowing many skillshot based CC to have a bit of an easier target, though you might say to juke them which can be done, it will makes him all risk if his adc is pushing lane for he has no intimidate stun or snare, like Morg or Leo, (with his two form off CC needing to hit a target 3 times), meaning that more times than not he will have to flash with the adc to escape a gank if the enemy jungler has a form of solid CC (Elise or Xin for example).
This nerf also makes the speed boost a bit useless since its not really that great for chasing since it has an ingest and digest animation which can take some time, (which I'm sure you don't want to waste if your chasing an enemy champion) while also leaving his primary form of CC and protection in CD. As such it takes a bit of his Kit's form from him in which he was better made to be able to save team members who got reckless and might have made a mistake and get them out of danger to a form of offensive play style which doesn't really help or s him support him or his identity in anyway

Sightless66Dec 2, 20154 votes

they could nerf many other aspects of him to make his solo lane less oppressive in the current form it is in,

Specifically hitting his solo lane isn't the goal. He's too strong no matter where he is, and he's frustrating to play against primarily because his defensive utility is too easy and too reliable. Tahm removes too much risk without giving the enemy a way to respond.

I really can't emphasize that enough. Solo lane Tahm is not the concern. The hitbox on Tahm's tongue is not a concern. Tahm's ability to remove extreme amounts of risk without any way for enemies to respond is a concern.

There has to be a way for enemies to respond to him devouring someone. Given that it's a stasis effect for his ally, locking him down, killing him, or keeping up with him so you can kill the guy inside is the obvious answer, but the speed boost makes that too hard to achieve. He can eat someone and get away too reliably. Take away the speed boost, and you still leave him able to save people.

This nerf also makes the speed boost a bit useless

It makes it useless for running away, but he doesn't need that power for devour to be extremely good. The entire problem with Tahm is that it's so ungodly easy for him to eat someone and then get away with a stupidly small chance for his enemies to catch up or do anything to stop him. There has to be a wider opening to punish him. Lowering his ability to escape easily after eating someone still gives a ton of room for him to make saves and prevent deaths.

It will still serve the exact same purpose it always has offensively. If an ally of yours is being targeted, you can save them and then help them run in. That's exactly the purpose that the speed boost towards enemies serves on live. It's situational, and you won't play around it often. It's a highly situational piece of power. That's fine. It's not changing.

As such it takes a bit of his Kit's form from him in which he was better made to be able to save team members who got reckless and might have made a mistake and get them out of danger to a form of offensive play style which doesn't really help or s him support him or his identity in anyway

No, it really doesn't. It's nowhere near big enough of a change to make him play offensively. He's still extremely defensively-focused. You won't alter your playstyle, outside of maybe making you be a bit more proactive with the devour. That's fine.

You're still going to play him defensively. You'll still make saves. He'll still be extremely supportive. None of that is changing. There will just be a bit more risk involved in it, and that's exactly what he needs. It needs to be harder for him to do his job and easier for enemies to stop him.

Like I said before, this really is the single best nerf I could think of for him. Nothing compares. Every other part of his kit is fine, except for the sheer reliability and safety of his defensive utility. Make him less reliable and give people a way to play around him, and you fix the only major kit problem he has. The speed boost when running away is terrible design, and it has to go.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

Now you believe hitting his solo lane ain't the problem but the main subject is that it is what causes many players rage since in such, when he is able to be played solo their is a gold difference in which it causes him to get a power spike that he would most probably not get if he is being played as support, and though true he is quite defensive instead of nerfing this aspect of his, which is how he was centered around in his creation what should be nerfed should be his other aspects, that should not be there, such an example would be how technically he has no engage, that, for a support can be quite troubling yet the slow of his Q, if it hits and slows the right enemy champion could lead to an engage for it being the only sane course of action, these are the types of nerf's that would suit him better for his role is to be a defensive and protected ally.

Second I have currently a mastery rank with TK of 68114, I tell you this to say that from every game I have ever played as TK using your W to chase is completely useless since again, his best form of CC and protection will be on CD and his animations leave allot of time open to escapes so you saying it serves the same purpose offensively would mean it serves the same useless purpose offensively which in such case it might be the same of them just taking it off completely.

And for my third point it does change his Kit since you say that "his defensive utility is too easy and too reliable." but thats the way he is, saying this is like complaining about an assassin or ADC having to much Dmg or a Mage being too oppressive but these are TK's main quality's that his Kit should center around not in an offensive style but a protected keeper for his team, that can save them from a pinch but why eat them when you are trying to disengage if you just end up being slower than your ADC, you will just end up hurting them more than not, he should be an advantage to his team not a hindrance.

This nerf is horrible for these reasons and are why I suggested the changes, and why I disagree with you on how you say these nerfs are the best thing to him since they are really just the opposite of that they should try to take away the other aspects of his kit that don't center around his creation, such as the way that he is able to engage but hitting his Q and then adding 3 stacks to an enemy that had bad positioned himself.

Now I am gonna address your subject on how you believe these are good nerf for him since I think you truly believe so, many of these points I might have already statet them though so sorry if any repetition though I still belive you should read this paragraph the most, TK is defensive and that's the way he should be played and why I love him, such as how Assassins and Mages have DMG, and Tanks are Bulky with load of CC, he brings safety in many ways and is such how his kit was designed, Riot should not nerf these aspects of his since they are what make him, well him, but rather than that they should nerf his other aspects whether they nerf his DMG or CC, nerfing this would be like nerfing the DMG of an Assassin or Mage yet they are champions that need DMG in such they can't or should not nerf them if not needed yet if a assassin brings many other aspects to the table, like CC or wave clear it brings the question what should they be, now at basic they are assassins since that is their primary role so the best course of action would be nerfing their other aspects to keep them as assassins, yet this would mostly mean we would have a similar style of assassins which are just bringing DMG which Riot or its players would not like for however similar they might feel and as such would mean they would need to mix the numbers yet support's usually don't get this choice since they are meant to bring extreme utility to the team but in an aspect that they might be missing, such as Leo's engage or Soraka's heal's but in exchange for this it usually it means that they have a harder time in different lanes for they will in exchange miss attributes that are important to help in solo lane, for this they are usually meant to be, well supportive, nerfing what they are meant to do, gives the question of "if they are meant to do this one aspect of their's creation why are we pushing them to a different objective", and this is something I ask of you.

Sightless66Dec 2, 20152 votes

I was writing a long response and it got lost. I'm shortening it to bullet points.

He will continue to play defensively. The chance of him become an offensive character after this change is literally 0. It is impossible. Can not happen. You have written so much on the assumption that he'll change as a character, but he won't. You're overblowing the imact on his character.
No one is expecting you to use your W to chase any more than you do now. It's not meant to become a more important mechanic on his kit. The expectation is that you will have to play better in order to save people.
Your entire comparison to nerfing the damage of AD carries and assassins and mages falls flat because that is exactly how we balance them! We do nerf their damage if they have a very reliable skill, or we nerf their reliability if they have a very strong effect. Right now, Tahm has an extremely strong skill that is almost perfectly reliable. That has to go. There has to be a way for enemies to respond.
The problem with your proposed tongue hitbox nerf is that it doesn't address an actual problem. Tahm already isn't engaging fights without using his ultimate. Lowering his ability to do something he already doesn't do doesn't address why he's actually a problem. Nothing would be accomplished and he'd just need another nerf.
Solo lane Tahm isn't contributing to the problem at all. The parts of him causing problems are all gold-independent, and he does them almost exactly as well in a support postion. Riot has specifically said that they aren't targeting him in any role because his role-independent power is the issue. So, once again, we aren't looking at him as a solo laner for these nerfs, and we shouldn't.

you will just end up hurting them more than not, he should be an advantage to his team not a hindrance.

Bull. Fucking. Shit. Do you really believe that? Are you serious? You're really trying to tell me that you think that a 6 second stasis will suddenly become a hindrance to your allies just because you can't run fast when using it? No. This is just wrong. Completely, and utterly wrong. This skill is stupidly strong, and will remain stupidly strong because the main function remains perfectly intact.

I'm not trying to be insulting with this, I'm really not, but that's just so out of line that I can not take it seriously. Dude, I know you don't want to see him changed, but there is no value in saying things that ridiculous. I don't even believe that you really believe that. You've proven to me that you know better. Don't say things like that.

Final point:

"if they are meant to do this one aspect of their's creation why are we pushing them to a different objective",

The answer is that we aren't. It's not a big enough change to do that. He's still rewarded for the exact same type of play, he's still incentivized to take the same actions, he's still defensive. He's just less reliable at it, which is exactly what he needs. The purpose of the nerf is to have him be the same character, but a bit worse. That goal is accomplished with this change.

That's really it. We aren't pushing him towards a different objective because we'd need much, much, much larger changes to do that. This nerf keeps his objectives roughly intact but makes his primary one slightly harder to pull off.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

I should say that I was not meaning to say he would be harmful for the whole duration of the game yet he would be for one of his primary roles, for which he was created for, which is saving a squishy allies from bad positioning I apologize for making my point not clear and am in full understanding that his W is a strong spell yet it is also his shtick and the thing that make's him unique
While it is true that they nerf Assassins and Mage's by their DMG in the end they still produce high amount of it even with reliable spells, some classic examples being Annie's R, Rengar's Ult and Q combo, Yasuo's W, and Victor's E are some examples of this
Now I'm not saying people are gonna expect me to chase with my W but it has no real reason to exist in it's current form since no one really uses W to chase might aswell just take it off completely than leaving it how it is in PBE, his Ult even works better and it has longer delay but you can cut enemy's of easily.
I got to ask something in this point, what do you mean by engaging with your Ult? I mean are you talking about ganking since in team fights you are most probably will get singled out easily and will be to far away from allied squishy's to help them from anything and even in ganking there is a clear and big sign that he will come
Now I can say that though you have an opinion on the matter of solo TK I would disagree since solo lane TK can do anything support TK can but disputably better since with higher gold income, it is easier to buy tank items which allow a higher chances of survival for both him and his Team member meaning there would be less point in playing him as a supp than a solo laner for such matters
But it is since to save allies from bad positioning he himself has to follow them unlike, (and I'm only using this as an example so don't believe I am asking for a form of nerf to him) Thresh, which can just throw his lantern, his real lack of CC without the 3 stock passive or disengage for the matter will lead to changing the style some people play, including myself in them, you believe it won't yet I who (and this might sound a bit dickish but sorry has to be said) have played TK since release and is tied as one of my favorite support for the way he is defensive and able to fix mistakes of allies, will make a difference in style of play.

Now this is what I truly believe while giving my view's and opinions on the matter but I do not have a PBE account nor can I find any videos showing haw this nerf to TK will hit if you can offer me a video, I would be very great full and if I was wrong and it really changes nothing from how he would originally play being in the video I will coincide to being wrong and say I am exaggeration.

Sightless66Dec 2, 20151 votes

he would be harmful for the whole duration of the game yet he would be for one of his primary roles, for which he was created for, which is saving a squishy allies from bad positioning

No, he won't be harmful for that either. He's still very good at it.

Harmful just isn't the right word. "Less amazing" is how I'd describe it.

While it is true that they nerf Assassins and Mage's by their DMG in the end they still produce high amount of it even with reliable spells,

And Tahm still saves people really, really, really well. It's just slightly less reliable.

Now I'm not saying people are gonna expect me to chase with my W but it has no real reason to exist in it's current form since no one really uses W to chase might aswell just take it off completely than leaving it how it is in PBE,

Why bother? There's no reason to remove the speed buff towards enemies because it isn't causing any problems. It's just a small piece of power that he can use in a rare scenario. What's the issue with keeping it?

I got to ask something in this point, what do you mean by engaging with your Ult?

In high level play, people actually do use the ultimate to engage. You go in slightly behind the enemy team, and force them to alter their positioning. The grey health means that it's extremely difficult for you to get picked off before your team follows you. It's still not common for him to engage, and I'm not saying it's part of his primary job, but on the occasions where he does engage, that's how he does it.

The point is, that by far the primary way he engages, and it's not something a tongue width reduction would help with. You're not hitting something that really matters to him.

Now I can say that though you have an opinion on the matter of solo TK I would disagree since solo lane TK can do anything support TK can but disputably better since with higher gold income

It's not really accurate to say he can do "anything support TK can do but better". He can do damage and tankiness better, but you don't need either of those to make his support playstyle work extremely well. One of the major advantages of utility is that it is gold neutral power. There is barely anything gold will do to enhance the power of eating someone and protecting them for 6 seconds. Yeah, it's technically a little better if Tahm is a bit tankier from having higher gold, but that is a very small increase in power compared to what the skill can do without gold. I'd say roughly 95% of the functionality is there whether or not you have money.

Additionally, having Tahm as a top laner means that you're spending a toplane slot to get utility that you could have gotten with a support. If you're going for an optimal team-composition, that's rarely a winning move. That's why he's overwhelming played as a support in competitive games.

Riot has already addressed this on the PBE forums about a month ago when they said Tahm was too strong. His utility regardless of role is driving the nerf. Top lane vs support vs jungle isn't a consideration right now. Maybe it will be in the future if he's doing too well at one role or another, but right now his power is role-neutral and has to be addressed as such.

will lead to changing the style some people play,

How? What exactly will change? What do you see yourself doing differently? Do you see yourself not eating someone who gets stunned or who is about to get bursted? Do you see yourself trying to be more aggressive? What exactly will make you want to play offensively when you didn't before, and how will you be more successful at this?

I'm asking all that because I can't think of any situations where I'd really play differently, outside of just eating someone earlier to make sure I can get away, or maybe 1-2 times where I have to give up on saving someone because they dove too hard and I don't think I could get them out. That's still being defensive though, it's just being a bit worse at it. I don't see any situations where I'd actually play more offensively. Seriously, I'm actually trying to and I can't think of any.

What situations are you thinking of? Is there something specific you have in mind?

you believe it won't yet I who (and this might sound a bit dickish but sorry has to be said) have played TK since release

That's actually part of why I don't believe you on this. It's way too easy for champion mains to overreact to changes that they haven't tried and say that it will cause the death of their favorite playstyle. And I'm not saying that's just you, because it isn't (really, it's not you, and I want to make that extremely clear). We all do it. Hell, I do it a ton. If you check far enough back in my post history, you'll see me claiming the death of MF following her mini-rework (not the preseason one, the one before). You may remember that change for doing absolutely nothing to her one way or another. You'll see it all the time anytime any champion gets nerfed at all on the boards. It's just what we all do. Things always look larger on paper than they are in the game.

If you're still saying this after you've tried it for a day or two, I'll believe you right off the bat. At that point, it will mean something because you've actually experienced it. For now though, it just looks like too large of a claim following too small of a change. I mean, if you were worried about him getting overnerfed or something I could see where you'd be coming from, but I just don't see any chance whatsoever of his playstyle changing. I don't see how it could happen.

MasterSomethingDec 2, 20152 votes

I thought that was the original intended effect of the speed boost... Running towards them gets it.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

I personally always found it to be the other way around since its animation time of eating and spitting out allies, really doesn't help with the chase and he is a better at saving champions life as a support by escaping ganks, than to continuing a fight by chasing a enemy champion, in my view as a support main, he was made to save allies if the got reckless and able to carry them to safety, this nerf cancels that a bit, plus him being made to chase them with his already primary form of cc being his W on CD seem's kind pointless for him in my view.

MasterSomethingDec 2, 20152 votes

Well, then again, think of this from a NON support view. He's overpowered by many people's standards, thanks to his ultimate passive and his W eating people in 3 attacks.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

yes in a way he can be quite strong but this can be settled many ways some examples I would suggest that come to mind would be that if his Q hits a enemy with 3 stacks it uses those stacks (kind of as i he had used his W) or lower the early stages of slow from his Q, but this form takes away one of his main aspects as a support, and his only real advantage to being a support (counting the W here) of how, for TK safty is vastly important, complaining about the safety he possesses is like saying Zill's Ult would also need a nerf, now of course this are two different spells, with maybe the main diffrence in them being the way one is an ult and the other one ain't, but the main gist of them is that while they are active they will (or can't) become the prime target anymore basically saving them from danger which is what their primary role is safety from threats.

MasterSomethingDec 2, 20151 votes

That was the longest run on sentence I've ever seen. Good job. Tahm is still getting nerfed- whether you want to admit it or not, he's currently too strong with too much utility right now.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

Wait you really willing to end the discussion like that, with just a "boo-hoo I don't want to read the point's nor discuses anymore, he makes he getting nerf so haha" really and here I thought we would be able to have a civil disscusion were we could talk about or views on the matter but I suppose the internet is filled with babies like you who care not of the matter at hand and believe they are right, I wish you a good day and a life of growth since by the looks of things you clearly need it.

MasterSomethingDec 2, 20151 votes

Well, nice argument there, ish. Since you would rather complain about my simple reasons, let me give you the difference between TK and Zilean. Tahm Kench has an untargetable save that can also deal max health damage against enemies, and can be done anytime. Zilean has a 5 second enchant that could put their ADC out of position, so the revive might as well be useless in some situations. This is also his ultimate. Next time, make your argument cleaner and I won't condescend you in a post.

ForgottenLuckDec 2, 20151 votes

I will make my post describing my point and views on the matter, and if you are willing to continue the argument I suggest you, like you have done so, read them and if there is something you are having trouble understanding then ask and I will answer, but I have no real reason to make it cleaner for someone in the internet that I don't know or will most likely never know, yet I will respect your views and you, by saying that it is true that he can make a a team member invulnerable, (not gonna touch the damage aspect you mentioned since I also do find it is a bit much and would be OK for a nerf on this subject), I will state that Zilean does have a AOE stun that can be used to help in an escape or disengage with a 99% speed boost (given at max rank) while TK lacks these two feature and even puts himself in a harmful way if he decides to try to help, he was originally planed to be able to help team members who got bad positioned yet with this nerf doing that would be harder to achieve, pushing him from what he was originally created for.

MasterSomethingDec 3, 20151 votes

Thing is, getting someone out of a bad position easily with one ability, is actually quite broken. Think about it- a person out of position should be punished hard. If you can't punish, then what's the point of positioning? And to counteract your Zilean posts, he can only do a double stun at the cost of some hefty mana and 3 abilities. The speed boost is nice, but remember that his old passive was gutted, and the new one is confusing to those who don't know how it works. And while I admit 99% is quite a lot, the utility is in place for his lack of damage and tanking.