A meaningful choice requires tradeoffs. If it's a no-brainer, it's not interesting.

chipndip1·Dec 13, 2016·1 votes·885 views

UNLESS YOU'RE SUPPORT AM I RIGHT GUYS!?

For the thousandth time: SUPPORT ITEMIZATION IS FUCKING BORING

19 Comments

EedatDec 13, 20162 votes

How is item 3107 boring? I think its quite a fun item. Plus, you can use it while you're dead which is kinda cool.

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

Lemme give you the whole quote:

"A meaningful choice requires tradeoffs. If it's a no-brainer, it's not interesting. If nobody understands the consequences of their decision, it's not engaging. If there's a better choice rather than a different choice, players become followers rather than pioneers. We support new strategies by ensuring that tradeoffs exist for the game as a whole."

In the support role, there's always been a case of "pick the best item, period". To boot, all the items are geared towards a specific style of play now, which is stand back and mash your healing/shielding button. Before, it was Locket/Crucible. Now, it's Locket/Redemption. Unless you're Zyra/Brand, basically any and every support has at least a Locket.

I could explain more, but that's the entry level part. Support itemization has been binary as shit since I started playing. Redemption just replaces Crucible. There's no real other ways to tackle the game.

Sona PingDec 14, 20162 votes

item 3068 item 3025 item 1412 item 3071 item 3165 item 3285 item 3031 item 3085

Oh do go on, OP

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

First one: Not all tanks build IBG, and Dead Man's is just as useful as Sunfire.

Second one: What planet do we see Warrior/Cleaver on every ad jungler every match? You can find them with Tri Force (Vi) or Cinderhulk (Hecarim) just as well. To boot there are mage junglers that just buy the ap one. There's also Blood Razer...somewhere...

Third one: Not all mages need to buy those either. Primarily the burst mages alone buy those.

Fourth one: Decent point except for caster marksmen.

Mine: Nearly every support is forced into either one or both of those items.

Sona PingDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

First one: Not all tanks build IBG, and Dead Man's is just as useful as Sunfire.

Second one: What planet do we see Warrior/Cleaver on every ad jungler every match? You can find them with Tri Force (Vi) or Cinderhulk (Hecarim) just as well. To boot there are mage junglers that just buy the ap one. There's also Blood Razer...somewhere...

Third one: Not all mages need to buy those either. Primarily the burst mages alone buy those.

Fourth one: Decent point except for caster marksmen.

Mine: Nearly every support is forced into either one or both of those items.

You missed the point (apparently as well as the point a while back early in the season where everyone built Iceborn/Sunfire even if they weren't a tank.)

The point is the number of champions who get locked into just a few items totals to just about everyone, rounding down. Everyone has "boring" itemization. Everyone's itemization decisions frequently end up being "binary". Because a player make decisions based upon the circumstances in the game.

You want to talk about ? Let's look at her dynamic and interesting itemization. Does she build Warrior, Triforce, and Deadman's like she does every single game? Or is this one of the one-in-six games where the passives mean you build Warrior, Triforce, and Randuin's instead?

And the thing is, the items you are complaining about aren't nearly as bad as these! They don't represent your complaint. They are 3rd or 4th item options; you have choices outside of these that you can make that still allow the champion to be effective. Try saying that about these combinations other champions are locked into.
You can't willingly restrict your options to a certain subset of optional items and then complain about how restricted your choices are.

Irelia BotDec 14, 20161 votes

item 3078 master race. But at least not all divers buy it.

Sona PingDec 14, 20161 votes

Yeah, that was the other option I was considering.

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

Vi and Hecarim

RedesignatedDec 14, 20161 votes

The update they did fixed a lot of the item stagnation, even if it's still not perfect. (And there's issues with item variance in the game in general, not just with support.)

For the case you brought up, though, it's worth noting that Locket/Redemption/Mikael's/Ardent form a quartet of heavy synergy because of the Forbidden Idol passive; if you get one, getting the others is all the more useful. Mikael's, Ardent, and Redemption all have different niches they fill within that, though, making which one you get first (or at all, depending on the case) more important than "give me the 15 MR aura."

Mikael's Crucible: Heavy sustain, ideal for high-uptime casters that need the 150% mana regeneration. A good rush against heavy amounts of stuns or roots. Also makes Soraka a very happy unicorn.
Ardent Censer: When you get a lead and want to snowball it — the aggressive choice. A solid chunk of AP. Most useful if you can apply it to multiple people at once (e.g. with Locket).
Redemption: Better control over fights, the ability to prolong your own team's sieging or defense, or hinder your opponent's. Raw health and balanced regen, although less than from Mikael's.

In that way, it's a lot like marksperson itemization. Some go for heavy Lethality, others go for maxing out crit and attack speed, but in the general groups they fit into, each champion has a standard item or two they want to start with (Essence Reaver, Youmuu's Ghostblade, BF Sword into Runaan's Hurricane, etc.).

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

Except Redemption's healing is so damn powerful it heals like 2.5 - 3k over 5 people by like 30 or so minutes. If you have to pick 1 of 3, it's going to be the one that gives your entire team way more uptime over one that gives you slightly more ap (Which is useless unless you're Sona/Karma because the role barely has ap items left, so what are you "rolling your lead" with? That's on-paper talk) and an item that doesn't have a heal in its active at all. The effective health between Redemption and Locket when used right trumps everything else in the role. It gets to the point where I see champs like Thresh building the thing.

RedesignatedDec 14, 20161 votes

As I said, there's almost always a first item a champion or category of champions will want to rush for. BF Sword + Runaan's/Infinity Edge/Black Cleaver/Sunfire Cape/Spirit Visage/Rod of Ages/Lost Chapter into either straight Morello or another heavy source of AP… Having what you want to buy early on be "pick the best one" is not uncommon. At all.

Ardent goes well with Sona, Karma, Lulu, and Janna (although I would hesitate to rush it on Janna in the best of cases), and when you have several people on your team that rely heavily on basic attacks. It's far from "on-paper talk."

Thresh has pretty much always wanted Locket, and he's an awkward enough tank-not-tank support that he'd want something agnostic and cheap like Redemption anyways.

Mikael's doesn't really need a heal in its active for everything else it provides now.

Before the support item update hit and Redemption was added, people cried about not having any choices, about how none of the items felt useful, about how they were boring and didn't give them anything to do. Now we have items that actually do things that are interesting. Do we still have items we want to start with? Yes. Do we have choices we can make in those to adapt to the situation? Yes. Is it perfect? No. But I definitely prefer this direction over being a walking MR stick.

Maybe there's no choices to be made or trade-offs to you because you haven't experimented with them enough, or used them in the right cases? Because there definitely are.

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As I said, there's almost always a first item a champion or category of champions will want to rush for.

This is fine

Ardent goes well with Sona, Karma, Lulu, and Janna (although I would hesitate to rush it on Janna in the best of cases), and when you have several people on your team that rely heavily on basic attacks. It's far from "on-paper talk."

This is not. Ardent goes well with Sona and Karma...specifically. Lulu's now a shield bot, and isn't used offensively anymore to justify Ardent since her bases were nerfed and there's no ap to justify starting to build it within the role. Janna doesn't need the thing either more than she wants Redemption. Only reason the former two build it is because they have aoe shields to apply it to many people at one time. Otherwise, build Redemption.

Thresh has pretty much always wanted Locket, and he's an awkward enough tank-not-tank support that he'd want something agnostic and cheap like Redemption anyways.

Mikael's doesn't really need a heal in its active for everything else it provides now.

Before the support item update hit and Redemption was added, people cried about not having any choices, about how none of the items felt useful, about how they were boring and didn't give them anything to do. Now we have items that actually do things that are interesting.

Wrong again. We have shields. Shields and heals. This repeated ad infinitum. We don't have jack shit else...unless it's a shitty item (Zeke's). So which items do we build? The best one or two of that line of thinking.

Like, I don't see how people look at the current state of things and go "This is fine" every time. Support as a role has a huge lack of players to the point where auto-fill has been forced on the entire population of players. That isn't "fine". There's obvious problems with the role, and the lack of interesting choices in the role is part of it. Now, this expands into a broader conversation, but I'm not heading in that direction since I doubt anyone would want to read it (Idk how Malicious Metal can have all his threads filled with conversation talking about a champ no one plays, but any thread I make about a pretty current topic that effects all of us gets buried rather fast).

RedesignatedDec 14, 20161 votes

I and others have had great success with Ardent on Lulu and Janna when we have a lane partner that can make good use of it specifically, and you can most certainly get it comfortably relatively early, assuming the lead you need for it. And, "on paper," it also works well, since Lulu already provides an attack speed boost (and minor attack damage increase via Pix), making it a double-down; while Janna gives pure AD with her shield, which then also gives attack speed and a bit of sustain. Is it the definitive choice to buy first? No. Is Redemption? Still no. :)

You have a very pessimistic and narrow-minded outlook on support items, and the role as a whole; part of the problem with the role is the perception of it. Quite frankly, you don't seem to understand that the situation you describe is the situation for most of the roles in the game, nor that item variance is not strictly about raw statistics and what's the flavor of the month, but about the functionality and different items enable you to do. If Redemption wasn't an item that people liked to rush, I'm doubtless you would be complaining about whatever else was. Maybe your topics drop quickly because you're arguing about things poorly.

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I and others have had great success with Ardent on Lulu and Janna when we have a lane partner that can make good use of it specifically, and you can most certainly get it comfortably relatively early, assuming the lead you need for it. And, "on paper," it also works well, since Lulu already provides an attack speed boost (and minor attack damage increase via Pix), making it a double-down; while Janna gives pure AD with her shield, which then also gives attack speed and a bit of sustain. Is it the definitive choice to buy first? No. Is Redemption? Still no. :)

I'm not gonna argue this with you five ways to Sunday because you happen to think that Janna wants offensive items. All I know is that you're someone playing unranked games with unranked players, which doesn't provide a solid foundation for anything.

You have a very pessimistic and narrow-minded outlook on support items, and the role as a whole;

Given the state of the class, it's highly warranted. The only reason we have auto-fill enabled in every division is because of support. Acknowledge the problem if you want to fix the problem.

Besides, I have a pessimistic view of the role, not a narrow-minded one. Where on Earth did "narrow-minded" come from? "Narrow-minded" is why we're in this mess to begin with.

part of the problem with the role is the perception of it. Quite frankly, you don't seem to understand that the situation you describe is the situation for most of the roles in the game, nor that item variance is not strictly about raw statistics and what's the flavor of the month, but about the functionality and different items enable you to do. If Redemption wasn't an item that people liked to rush, I'm doubtless you would be complaining about whatever else was. Maybe your topics drop quickly because you're arguing about things poorly.

Here's the thing: You don't know or understand anything I've been saying or advocating for in the game. If you want to have that conversation, we could, but unless you give me a heads up, I'm not about to type a mini-essay for nothing.

Tukan TonkoDec 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Except Redemption's healing is so damn powerful it heals like 2.5 - 3k over 5 people by like 30 or so minutes. If you have to pick 1 of 3, it's going to be the one that gives your entire team way more uptime over one that gives you slightly more ap (Which is useless unless you're Sona/Karma because the role barely has ap items left, so what are you "rolling your lead" with? That's on-paper talk) and an item that doesn't have a heal in its active at all. The effective health between Redemption and Locket when used right trumps everything else in the role. It gets to the point where I see champs like Thresh building the thing.

You mean, like item 3031 on crit based champions. Just like item 3089 for AP carries? item 3147 for assassins? item 3078 ?

Everytime there is an item which is best value for certain champions, for certain situations. You find item 3107 the best item for supports? That's your opinion. I find it really good, too. But not everyone builds it. Also, you won't buy just one item, you will build more items. I probably didn't get your point. Could you explain it to me? You want different supports to build different items? That's the only point I think I got.

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted} ** You want different supports to build different items? That's the only point I think I got. **

No shit because that's literally the point.

Like, do you think top lane itemization would make sense if even juggernauts built full tank every game? Or if mage itemization made sense if even manaless mages built Morello? No, it'd be stupid. Yet, for some reason, the support role alone has this thing where every player is expected to just like playing it the same way no matter what champ we play, and the itemization reflects that. That's why Brand and Zyra have all their damage front loaded into their bases, making laning miserable. That's why Lulu maxes E first and Q last even though people talk about "her poke". It's a good part of the reason why the role has the issues it has now. We have a myriad of play styles, but the entire game takes one of them, makes them hella strong, and literally crams it into everyone's mouths. Surprise, surprise: Not everyone likes Janna, and not everyone likes building like Janna. We need different options for different styles of support champs that feel better to use, not just better to use for Janna mains.

Tukan TonkoDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

**

No shit because that's literally the point.

Like, do you think top lane itemization would make sense if even juggernauts built full tank every game? Or if mage itemization made sense if even manaless mages built Morello? No, it'd be stupid. Yet, for some reason, the support role alone has this thing where every player is expected to just like playing it the same way no matter what champ we play, and the itemization reflects that. That's why Brand and Zyra have all their damage front loaded into their bases, making laning miserable. That's why Lulu maxes E first and Q last even though people talk about "her poke". It's a good part of the reason why the role has the issues it has now. We have a myriad of play styles, but the entire game takes one of them, makes them hella strong, and literally crams it into everyone's mouths. Surprise, surprise: Not everyone likes Janna, and not everyone likes building like Janna. We need different options for different styles of support champs that feel better to use, not just better to use for Janna mains.

Oh, so I got it after all. It seems like you was trying to point out something else as well. I agree. First we had gold per 5s items, we had some diversity on supps back then. Now you have 2 builds - tank support and support support. I don't know if this is the issue why supports are so unpopular these days. But I think this is not the only and also not the biggest issue. But, do you remember Mejai's Janna? It's still a thing. And it somehow changes your build. Supports are not popular, so there are less people with different builds. If someone popular find out a new build it will be everywhere and nobody will actually ask if it's good or not. And that's exactly the problem now. People think that "meta" is there just because it's the only viable thing. No, it's not, everyone have different playstyles so they should probably have different builds.

Example: - TwistedFate I build him like this - item 3165 item 3100 item 3285 (I play him aggressive) But you can go - item 3027 item 3152 item 3001 OR item 3157 item 3030

Sure, it changes based on games, which champion you are facing, what your team have... But it also depends on players and their playstyle.

But on support you always want something that helps your team. But you can help in toher ways, too! Let's try item 3512 and item 3060 if you want to help you team another way. Why not item 3027 on Janna Morgana Lulu to help your team with damge and also get a bit more durable? We have some more viable possibilities, people are just lazy to try it. Or they think it won't work. Or they are scared of being flamed/reported by teammates simply because their "build is bad". So meta helps this, too. I don't really know if some more good items would help, because some of them would become meta and the other ones would be left in dust, forgotten. Seriously, whole class needs a rework. Because support role is shifting into "mage without farm on bot"...

chipndip1Dec 14, 20161 votes

Here's the thing: They don't build solo laner items because they're not designed for support. Building TF in different ways with mid laner items is fine because he's a mid laner. He gets that income. His kit is built to be able to work with those things. Supports are different. They need things like actives and passives on their stuff for them to work, and the items need to be relatively cheap to be worth buying or else you progress through the game at a snail's pace. Why would you build a freaking RoA, then wait 10 MORE minutes to try to ramp it up, when you could just build an op active that can soak up near 1k damage by hitting one button? Supports aren't solo laners, and thus they don't and won't build items designed around solo laners (in most cases). You may have "that one guy over there" doing otherwise, but for the most part, no.

Instead of skirting the issue, address the problem directly and make new support items that actually address the wants of different champs and play styles. We covered healing/shielding five ways to the highway. There's still other things we haven't covered.