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Need some opinions on this tank/fighter passive - Revolves around counter-attacking

darkdill·Oct 5, 2014·2 votes·341 views

One of my Champion Concepts uses the following as her passive:

P - Curse of Retribution
Every time an enemy lands a basic attack on Nephree, it receives a stack of Retribution for 6 seconds (max. 4 stacks). If Nephree deals physical damage to an enemy with 4 stacks, the stacks are consumed and Nephree deals 35+(5*level)(+60% of total armor) physical damage to it.

The idea of it is she is an armor-scaling tank who has taunts, but unlike Rammus has to actually attack someone to trigger her "counterattack damage" once her target has maximum stacks. Also unlike Rammus, she doesn't have an armor steroid, so she can only get bonus armor from items, runes, and masteries. She compensates for those things by having much better offense than Rammus or Malphite, keeping her a potent threat in fights.

However, that all is besides the point. The point I'm really wanting to ask is whether or not a passive like this one could be reasonable, or if it's instantly toxic. People will probably see this and think "Punished for attacking?!", but my hope is that such a mechanic is not inherently toxic gameplay.

6 Comments

redniwediSOct 5, 20141 votes

It's a fair idea, but I would actually consider it to be better on Fiora once she gets reworked. Armor tanks are not particularly well known duelists, where as this passive does indeed seem good for a duelist.

XenohazOct 6, 20141 votes

Pretty much this. An armor tank with a built in mini-thornmail seems like a bit of having your cake and eating it too.

EDIT: I notice differences between this and thornmail that maybe make the comparison unfair, but you get what I mean, right?

Teridax68Oct 6, 20141 votes

If you don't want an armor steroid, that's fine, but I don't think you should rule it out completely, as it would synergize well with all parts of the passive (you'd take less damage while accruing Retribution stacks, and you'd deal more damage when consuming them).

The mechanic you're proposing isn't toxic in itself, since it requires you to take action to use Retribution stacks, which can therefore give your opponent the opportunity to dodge/kite you and even bait you into a trap (there's counterplay to your mechanic). Two things, though:

With a passive like this, you're better off making your champion a tank, even if it's a tank with above-average offense. Whereas bruisers only want to mitigate damage, tanks genuinely want to take damage and derive power from that (which is what your passive does).
Unless this is a specific design/balancing point of yours, you may want to find a way to consume these stacks that does not involve withholding autoattacks, since here sticking to a target and autoattacking them constantly will detonate stacks on every basic attack, which invalidates the purpose of the stacks. Tanks like and are rewarded for autoattacking their target as much as they can, regardless of the bonuses attached to their basic attacks, for example.

darkdillOct 6, 20141 votes

Nephree is meant to be a tank, but gains damage on her abilities from building armor (like Rammus/Malphite/Taric).

Also, the stacks don't detonate on every auto-attack. Only when your target is at max stacks (4 stacks). They can also be detonated if you hit with one of Nephree's basic abilities (which all deal physical).

Giving her an armor steroid is something I'm a bit hesitant to do since her damage output exceeds Rammus and Malphite, but if I need to give her one, I'll tie it to her passive. Something like...

If Nephree damages an enemy Champion or large monster with Curse of Retribution, she gains a 20% increase to her total armor for 3 seconds (does not stack).

Teridax68Oct 7, 20141 votes

You don't necessarily have to make tankiness versus damage and either-or situation here: Rammus and both have excellent mobility, for example, so you could make another tradeoff by having Nephree be less mobile, or you could give her a significant weakness Rammus and Malphite don't have that would justify her greater fighting power.

darkdillOct 7, 20141 votes

Indeed, Nephree does have less mobility. Her only movement skill requires her to first land a 600-range skill-shot. She has no other engage tool.

Another significant weakness is that late-game, enemy armor really hurts her damage output because she has poor synergy with Last Whisper and Black Cleaver. Both would have high amounts of wasted stats on her since she has no AD scaling.

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