Anyone else want to play black market brawlers again?

Hammermancer·Mar 23, 2017·68 votes·7,867 views

I loved it, It was sort of like..... Just better than norms, Sure the minions needed to see some balancing but that mechanic was (At least to me) so good. It added counterbuilding to minion waves, that's legitimately amazing

Plus we got a couple of really cool items. But In all honesty I'd love to see this come out, or something similar, just to play with those minion mechanics again.

66 Comments

RiotRiot EllarianMar 23, 201750 votes

I'm totally with you there - BMB actually reminded me of one of my favorite Warcraft 3 maps from back in the day, Castle Fight(http://www.eeve.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1709)! It was basically a massive Rock-Paper-Scissors engine where you just sent mindless AI units across the map at each other and tried to destroy the other team's base. In my mind BMB has some very cool macro-gameplay elements that might be better of separated into a different game mode from the crazy item testing (which is also SUPER fun). What do you guys think?

Worst Kench NAMar 23, 20172 votes

It's great and I'd love to see it back. I'd prefer OFA and Hexakill to be brought back first though. And maybe regular URF instead of ARURF.

ÇhåryzårdMar 23, 20172 votes

Can you tell Rito that charyzard told you to add that and doombots to the rotation

AtaxiChaosMar 23, 20174 votes

Honestly, I feel like the best part about the mode was the ability to experiment with new items. I'd love to see the lost chapter upgrades come back in some form as well as giving Haunting Guise and Chalice bore diverse build paths...

(Also, it seems like a waste of good art assets not to.)

HammermancerMar 23, 20173 votes

I would love to see it in the game mode rotation with a bunch more... things and stuff!

Part of me would also love to see just experimentation with it in norms but i don't think that's a popular idea.

And if you're looking into ideas for it, check out the old starcraft bunker wars maps/ simpsons madness.

PaladinNOMar 24, 20171 votes

Upvoted for StarCraft! And then another upvote for Bunker Wars!

UnpaladinMar 23, 20172 votes

That sounds great. I personally believe a gamemode with experimental items and summoner spells in the spirit of the original BMB mode would be a fantastic addition that could easily hold its own.

Critmaster GarenMar 23, 20172 votes

i actually want the minions added as a core element to the game.

they were a bit snowbally, but only because minion upgrades were gated a lot by kills. if they were just gated by game time instead, they could add an entirely new strategic layer to the game.

RestraintfulMar 23, 20173 votes

I think you should the fix balancing issue before introducing more game modes. The only way to do this is to have class specific items (items for marksman, items for tanks) that other classes cannot buy ontop of having a "general pool" of items for anyone to buy.

Once the game is balanced, tweak some outlier champions to bring them up to speed or down to speed so to speak. Then fix the ranked system by removing MMR and divisions and basing the ladder on pure win/loss with a hard reset every season.

Now you have the most balanced, competitive and fun game on the planet. Congratulations, you were just promoted for stealing my ideas and implementing them, Mr. Chief Gaming Engineer.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 23, 201727 votes

It may be worth noting that the team that designs and implements rotating game modes is completely different from the team who handles live balance - so it's not like we're directly prioritizing one over the other :).

Just want to clarify I am about as far removed from game design as possible, but I'll actually disagree with your design suggestions. I don't think that the solution is restricting who can buy what item (personally I think the freedom/flexibility/variability that items add to the game has been an integral part of its success), but instead the solution lies in correctly incentivizing each class to buy the specific items (which historically, we haven't always been great at). It's a lot more difficult, sure, but I think it leads us towards a better place.

I do miss season 1/2 ELO too, but I think that the new system is only really different on the surface level. Can I ask why you want a hard reset each year?

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 23, 201717 votes

You're a lot nicer to the smug idiot than I could be

SchàdenfreudeMar 24, 20174 votes

DAMN! You even included the happy face for the BM XD

Being nice is the ultimate BM.

ElikainMar 24, 20171 votes

We just need a Mastery Emote gif to bundle with the responses to bashful idiots and we're golden :)

PaladinNOMar 24, 20171 votes

Agreed.

http://new1.fjcdn.com/pictures/Livin_6d5f87_5369138.jpg http://static.lag.vn/upload/news/17/02/24/nami-and-boots_VQLA.jpg https://img.ifcdn.com/images/531d62020c7598c3c28e444cd7a80a4994e50340e360eb4bf077159f6a05600a_1.jpg

ParoeMar 23, 20172 votes

Do you mean like an actual tower defense or some kind of arena? Might be super fun to have "minion gladiators" and its a rock paper scissors type game for the most part, but you can upgrade your minions.

underscores222Mar 23, 20172 votes

I think one of the more interesting aspects of BMB was the ability to adjust minion wave composition and build to reflect a game strategy. I think it would be interesting to take that idea and push it more in the future - maybe BMB doesn't have traditional top-tier items that we usually see in-game. What if they were replaced with items that really focused on one particular option (split-push, objective control, etc) and the minion options also reflected that. As a team, you could focus the game more significantly on a strategy.

Obviously, creating a bunch of new items is difficult, if not outright impossible, due to balancing issues and time commitment for a temporary game mode, but the thematic idea of "buying from the black market" should include more than just minion buffs. Maybe some of the items could be old, retired items (force of nature, deathfire grasp, feral flare) that are obviously old, rare, and banned from international trading.

ParoeMar 23, 20172 votes

Take a page from dota 2; Weaker high-end items like jungle items, support items, item 3512 , and item 3091 could all have higher tier/upgraded versions be sold a "black market" which youre vulnerable to ganks while buying at.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 23, 20177 votes

I do remember the "Secret Shop" fondly, I even remember when it used to wander up and down the river (insert geizer jokes here). It was an interesting idea, adding an element of Risk to something as mundane as buying items, but as a mechanic it was incredibly frustrating for new players, as it made shopping a high pressure activity AND it increased the burden of knowledge required to succeed even more than our current itemization system does. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but I imagine it's a conscious design decision that the team made years ago.

Would love to see a wandering shop selling super OP items replace scuttle crabs in an RGM at some point, that would be super cool!

AtaxiChaosMar 24, 20171 votes

Seems like it could serve scuttle's purpose too - pay it for vision.

ErablierMar 24, 20171 votes

What if the Scuttle Crabs were the shopkeepers?

DethflashMar 24, 20171 votes

I know you don't work with the game design, but https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AXb7gfZE-black-market-brawlers what do you think about this idea for updating the game mode to fit more nicely into the rotating game modes

underscores222Mar 24, 20171 votes

I was thinking more in reference to the first BMB, where you could "hire" different minions and the shopkeepers had some items from the "black market" available (deadman's plate, lost chapter, pox arcana, etc)

If you think about how the game modes usually mix up the rift - mostly by adjusting the rules (all for 1, hexakill, poro king) or modifying a map (ascension, nexus siege, new dominion). There isn't much that leaves the rules and map the same, but allows the players to play it in a new and different way. BMB allowed the players to change things that players don't usually have control over (minions), and opened up some new items to make the rest of the gameplay interesting. In the end, the game itself was basically the same we play normally, but it felt new and fun because of all the different options.

By digging into that more, by adding the ability for players to interact with things like minions (what about being able to buy tower buffs?) and dishing up some new items or old retired ones or ones from other maps, the gameplay can be changed enough to be interesting, different and new. This does fall into the foreseeable trap that after a few weekends worth of play, the options are no longer new and exciting. This could be worked with by also using it as a testing ground for new items (like the did with Deadman's Plate and Lost Chapter) and/or introducing 1-3 new items each time it comes around. Eventually the items could be rotated, so each game has a different combination of randomly selected items (the Black Market stock isn't very stable). This helps keep builds from becoming stale, but does require additional items to pick from to ensure enough for every champ to feel good about.

Take the idea of a "black market" and run with it. What's out there in Runeterra that can be used, but isn't something that's easy to get? Even something as simple as old items - nothing mechanically broken, but what if Atma's was added back in for this? What if the shop keepers had some items from TT that they KNOW they aren't allowed to sell in SR but hey, it's on the Black Market? The options are there to take the game mode to the next level, and it would fill an area of the featured game modes that I don't think is filled by anything else.

Edit - by "mechanically broken" I mean mechanics that don't exist in the game anymore, like dodge

AeszarckMar 23, 20171 votes

I played Castle Fight for awhile, but I was never really good at it! I didn't really understand the counterbuilding aspect, I just built what I thought was cool. Did you ever play Boreal Conflict? That was another map like Castle Fight but with modern troops and 3v3.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 23, 20178 votes

I just relied on the "-armor" command to help me figure out what to build, I actually still play it with my friends at LAN parties (Warcraft 3 forever!!).

Was that a standalone game? I may have to give it a shot, I do miss Castle Fight awfully so...

LauchmelderMar 23, 20172 votes

I didn't like the mode itself, but I LOVED the announcer we got back then.

Any plans on making different announcer packs?

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20174 votes

I work in the distant land of HR, so I can't actually speak to whether we are or aren't, sorry D:

Papa AndreiMar 24, 20171 votes

HR? like Human Resources? If so thats pretty interesting! Kinda what I want to do when I am done my psychology degree xD do the business to community interactions

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20172 votes

We have a ton of I/O Psych people in here! I'm actually a Cultural Anthropologist by training. And my role at Riot actually has nothing at all to do with community interactions, we're just empowered to go out and talk to players,.

Business/community interaction is a fascinating space, I agree. Would love to study it more :D

Papa AndreiMar 24, 20171 votes

Good to know more of my people are there! Out where I am psycholigists are treated like the black plague xD ironic cause have good schooling for it!

Cultural Anthro kinda sounds like a branch of Social Psychology almost,

I just feel like Riot sets an example of how big companies should be, a business that you know cares, and show they do (E.G the slow murder of all our Memes)

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20171 votes

I (of course) would argue that Social Psych is an evolution of Cultural Anth, but that's a real chicken and the egg argument. In reality, they are the study of basically the same thing, but Anthropology is at a macro level and Psych tends to focus more on the individual. IMO the two fields are starting to blur together rather nicely :)

I'm humbled you feel that way - we do the best we can to try and show we care, even if we don't always hit the mark.

Fine Ionian SilkMar 24, 20171 votes

I first started playing League during the Black Market Brawlers event... I actually thought that was the standard announcer, and was extremely confused when it went to the standard announcer.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20172 votes

I can see why you'd be confused, lol. Going from the dulcet tones of Matt Mercer to our normal announcer would be a little...jarring

Master LycanMar 24, 20172 votes

Wait Matt Mercer? As in Critical Role Matt Mercer? As In McCree Matt Mercer? As in all around cool guy Matt Mercer?

Also Maybe you can pass this on to whoever runs the Boards that you Reds could have a little widget next to your names that gives your Job Title. That way we can avoid people complaining about balance to EVERY RED NAME THEY SEE.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20172 votes

Yeah, he voiced Gangplank (and the Wolf part of Kindred). And is an all around cool guy.

Wait, if you mouse over my name, does it not show you my job title? :O I see it...

Master LycanMar 24, 20171 votes

I actually didn't know about the mouse over bit... Good to know!

MelledoneusMar 23, 20172 votes

Just bring back the full experience for a weekend, collect your stats, and change it up from there. I would love to see crazy item ideas tested here as well so we can get new content without dealing with disasters like Edge of Night.

The MechEMar 23, 20171 votes

Your hyperlink links to something that does not exist FYI.

I do know what castle fight is though.

5000000000000000Mar 24, 20171 votes

That's probably because of ")!" at the end. Maybe this will work? http://www.eeve.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1709

doiminat0r3600Mar 24, 20173 votes

You guys think you can make a blend between BMB and Nexus Seige? I enjoy both of those gamemodes but we may need a true tower defense vs endless minions gamemode.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20174 votes

I'll reiterate that I work in HR not game design, but personally I think that a ton of these ideas are really cool and are games that I would absolutely love to play - but I have to ask the question: at what point have we stopped playing League of Legends?

My point is, do these make sense as something to implement in the rotating game mode queue? Or are they in reality their own game? I don't have the answer to this, but if these things strike you as games that would be fun to play I'd encourage you to think about making them yourself somehow. I know I'd play it!

AtaxiChaosMar 24, 20171 votes

The same could be said of things like URF, Ascension, and Doombots. It comes down to a question of what the "core element" of League is - which I'd say is the champion (as concept). So long as that aspect remains intact, it should still be League (leaving the debates of how League is different from other MOBAs off the table, or else it becomes a completely different conversation).

I think the best comparison here would be to MTG. In Magic there are multiple different formats, some official (Standard=SR), some fanmade and made official (EDH=ARAM), and other completely different things like formats created for specific reasons (Archenemy=BMB, Theros Challenges=Doombots, etc.) The only major difference is that what's allowable in terms of "fan created" formats. Being a physical game, the restrictions for Magic are basically whatever rules you can think of to make it interesting; whereas, in League, the only freedom for "format" experimentation is within the confines of what's already available in the core game, because it requires programming and isn't a freely moddable game. The core element remains intact, regardless (even if it's to the extent of completely changing how the core elements are used in a way like URF.)

Tangent: That's an odd title for working in HR. If you hadn't said that, I'd assume you were more connected to tech stuff, specifically server-related things.

RiotRiot EllarianMar 24, 20172 votes

You make a good point! I agree that champions are core to League being League.

And I can totally see that, performance means a lot of things to different people! But I am about as un-technical as they come :D

patmax17Mar 24, 20171 votes

I think one of the interesting parts of RGMs is to see how far you can go from a standard LoL game and still have an enjoyable League of Legends mode ^^

doiminat0r3600Mar 24, 20171 votes

We stop playing League of Legends when the game gets boring, people rage too hard, or we just don't like what is has evolved into.

On a more on-topic note, we stop playing league of legends when we are unable to do the normal things our champion choices are designed for, capable of, or when they become so useless nothing will possibly make that game/match fun.

We stop playing LoL when we can no longer make ourselves have fun or are in such a state of repetitiveness (Ascension for 4 weeks in a row) to where the game becomes stale.

I understand why, from a human nature standpoint, you patch the game and throw in wildcards. Because games that are the same for extended time periods become stale and lose their ability to have fun.

Personally, I just built a new $2K PC with a 1080 FTW. I Have bought 4 games and stopped playing my old games from when I had a 750m. Why? Because I've played those games so many times that they have become stale. Those games weren't changed enough between the years that they kept my interest. I, and many others, are subconsciously interested in adapting/learning. That's why when people say they hate the game, they come back either at a later date or the next hour to play again because they want to learn as much as they can to rise through the ranks.

Love what you guys are doing. Keep it up. Don't do anything too crazy.

SpoofghoulMar 24, 20171 votes

perhaps differentiating them for testing purposes is better

however

for fun

the more crazy the better x'D

BMB nemesis URF nexus siege with ascension xerath as drake just because

Wind WhistlerMar 25, 20171 votes

BMB was one of my fucking favorites. It was just the regular game, but BETTER.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 25, 20171 votes

yes pls

Naomi CoffeeGoatMar 23, 20172 votes

I'd prefer to see it if they gave us the mode as a way to experiment new items.

QuephaMar 23, 20172 votes

I missed that entire event and the free captain gangplank skin

The JigSAWMar 24, 20171 votes

I loved it! Pox Arcana was one of my favorite items and those razorfin minions were absolutely a blast. We could use this mode in the rotating queue for sure.