You know what's the biggest thing causing damage creep?

Melledoneus··141 votes·5,801 views

#OVERABUNDANCE OF CDR

Seriously, I remember when people would get brutalizer into Youmuu's, and that was like the only 10% CDR they would get. Mages would have to go out of their way to turn 5% CDR amounts into 10%, itemizing was a hassle if you wanted CDR and damage, and it was ok because you had to choose between spammability and raw power. Spirit Visage was awesome on tanks because the juicy MR, HP, and CDR, coupled with the heal passive made it such a great buy and helped them manage their cooldowns in fights because they had more uptime on their CC.

But now? Free CDR on mage items, assassin items, fucking ADC items even have CDR now. Meanwhile the only class not benefitting from the overabundance of CDR are the class that it's arguably the most balanced on: tanks.

Before, if you went over 40% CDR, you were considered an idiot because you went out of your way to reach that. Now, every game is a struggle of "CDR overload."

Why does Morello's and Triforce have 20% CDR along with all the other crap they have? Essence Reaver for fuck's sake gives up to 30% CDR. FOR A CLASS MEANT TO USE THEIR AUTO ATTACKS. Why the flying frankfurt did you slap CDR on Zhonya's? Just reduce the damn cost, not put useless stats for the situation.

Black Cleaver already gives HP, AD, a speed passive (Phage), and up to 30% total armor shred. Then why the hell does it also need to get you halfway to max CDR? Who the hell thought that was even remotely a good idea?

Not to mention item 3812, the item that gives physical damage healing, damage redirection, and, you guessed it, CDR. This item is being held back by the CDR and could be so much more, but no, might as well add CDR to f*cking Bloodthirster while we're at it.

CDR is too damn high. Lower CDR.

Also, I'm going to answer some concerns here before they start.

  1. Yes, item 3110 item 3025 have 20% CDR. I (and many other players) don't touch these items as a tank because they provide no health, the armor loses a lot of its value should the ADC have the bright idea to buy the dreaded 1300 gold death sentence item 3035, and the other effects are not nearly worth the space in my inventory as other options.

  2. I am not crying OP for anything here. I am simply saying that there is too much CDR on too many items.

  3. Yes, I am a tank main. That does not mean I do not play mages, assassins or ADCs. I play all roles, so I know all sides of the story. I am not the guy crying about Illaoi being OP after trying to fight her in the middle of her ultimate.

  4. I am not saying Season 3/4/5 were perfect. Zed is the perfect example of the contrary. I am saying this problem with CDR did not exist before.

  5. Yes, I am Bronze 1. I am not some flashy Master or Diamond guru. I play ranked only with one of my friends and climb slowly because we rarely get together. I have been playing this game since late Season 3/ early Season 4, so I have insight on many things. If you're going to argue rank then ask any Challenger player who isn't boosted and you'll get the same answer.

I'll give the floor to you guys. I'm gonna go take a nap.

127 Comments

Ahristocats57 votes

you know what caused damage creep?

frozen heart armor nerf thornmail nerf hp nerf armor nerf mr nerf

defensive items cost nerf

AD buffed crit buffed attack speed buffed AP nerfed but more cdr armor penetration

offensive items cost buff

why do you think renekton went from a full tank build being tanky bringing utility and decent damage into a full ad build with 2 defensive items oneshoting an adc

Keevalroy41 votes

You forgot the introduction of the keystone mastery system and reworks to bring older champions up to the level of the new mobility / power creeped releases and reworks.

Ahristocats16 votes

yeah of course, thunderlord fervor and all those %damage increase masteries used to be so cool, now they're just destroying the game

Blackstone0110 votes

While tank keystones get nerfed the moment they become an actual viable pick or are abused by non-tanks.

UnboundCreator8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=43RYrdvf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-10T19:26:53.359+0000)

you know what caused damage creep?

frozen heart armor nerf thornmail armor nerf hp nerf armor nerf mr nerf

defensive items cost nerf

AD buffed crit buffed attack speed buffed AP nerfed but more cdr armor penetration

why do you think renekton went from a full tank build being tanky bringing utility and decent damage into a full ad build with 2 defensive items oneshoting an adc

I completely agree buff the defensive stats but nerf sunfire and nerf frozen fist. Also nerf tanks with base damage too high> AKA poppy

Ahristocats2 votes

exactly

MFTORANK12 votes

not item 3068 plz :(

LordGeovanni3 votes

except tanks dont ahe high damage squichy champions are squshy then complain that tanks do too much daamge when they can more than likely 3-5 shot that tank

Pierce The Veal4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=43RYrdvf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-10T19:26:53.359+0000)

you know what caused damage creep?

frozen heart armor nerf thornmail nerf hp nerf armor nerf mr nerf

defensive items cost nerf

AD buffed crit buffed attack speed buffed AP nerfed but more cdr armor penetration

offensive items cost buff

why do you think renekton went from a full tank build being tanky bringing utility and decent damage into a full ad build with 2 defensive items oneshoting an adc

How the hell was AD buffed.

We went from items with 120 AD with the highest AD item having 75. I agree on the rest, but seriously AD amount in game has gone massively down. Crit and attack speed were buffed however, so ADC's are better off and AD casters are worse off (at least until lethality, but once that goes away they'll be back to shit).

Like, I remember back in season 2, when champions like Talon were considered shit, I would very normally have 400+ AD in their builds. Nowadays they're strong sheerly through armor penetration and CDR. I used to run 20% cdr in runes to be special, but now that's wasted.

2000-3000 damage crits were unheard of back in the day. The only way you could get them was by playing nasus, and building crit like some retard.

Now they're very common. Even Caitlyn gets 3000 damage crits, a champion that's supposed to fall off lategame.

Wimbledofy3 votes

3000 damage crits on minions maybe, not champs though. And even if she is supposed to fall off late game she has a passive that doubles her damage basically so she should have one of the highest crits anyways,.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

3000 damage crits on minions maybe, not champs though. And even if she is supposed to fall off late game she has a passive that doubles her damage basically so she should have one of the highest crits anyways,.

She's the ADC who falls off hardest, and yet she deals so much damage.

Then what of the other ADCs? They deal insane damage. I hate how no matter what sort of justification there is someone somewhere comes out abd tries to white knight it. Besides a nasus farming for a couple hours, no other champion can do that much damage in one hit to a minion.

Holy Fervor5 votes

Not true. She's a lane bully, and a late game carry. It's because she has Range and decent base damages. She's not a mid game champion, that's when you're supposed to beat her.

KoggyStyle2 votes

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS i fkin hate esports for those godamn reasons.

Asayake 5150glow23 votes

Let's give Assassins actual cooldowns first.

One wonders why the Assassin class has extremely low cooldowns on their main damage. i didn't realize they were DPS, i thought they were burst. Oh, they're that too? Wow, I really wonder why Rengar, Kha, Lb, and Kata were so OP.

Melledoneus12 votes

I'd be fine with upping cooldowns on assassins once lifesteal and crit are toned down. Assassins have to go through the holy trinity of shields, and if they fail to kill the ADC instantly they get blown up and the ADC heals right back up.

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

{quoted}

I'd be fine with upping cooldowns on assassins once lifesteal and crit are toned down. Assassins have to go through the holy trinity of shields, and if they fail to kill the ADC instantly they get blown up and the ADC heals right back up.

If an Assassin gets a chance to use their abilities more than once, they've already failed at bursting through the ADC's heals and shields. Increasing their cooldowns would do very little in most cases. Non-isolated Kha Q should have an 8 second cooldown. Rengar Q should have 2 stacks which he should blow both of when assassinating, and a 15 second recharge time. Zed E should have an 8 second cooldown, Q should have the the same as right now so he can still farm (he has energy so that gates him anyway). None of this would affect their oneshotting in the slightest - the only thing that would change is their DPS.

Melledoneus3 votes

Yes, but I'm saying we should tackle the tree then move to the branches. We have a much bigger problem on our hands.

Ralanr18 votes

As much as I like my CDR, we do have a bit too much of it. I'm starting to wonder if we should just cut all CDR given by items in half.

Earl Eulrich9 votes

well it´s part of the dmg creep.

But it also made the game incredible dull...there are just no windows of power anymore to play around, especially in teamfights. If someone misses an ability there´s a good chance you won´t reposition to punish him fast enoughbefore it comes back now,while during earlier seasons you had quite the time to readjust and teamfights had been a lot more a battle of positioning than anything else (kinda like what it´s in hots right now, where there are real cds and not that much dmg). So it all comes down to blow someone up, as nothing else has muchvalue in fights anymore than just outright removing a champion from it for the time being.

The Yetii Rider8 votes

Frozen Heart is a good item even if the enemy carry builds item 3035 .

Thing is, if the enemy carry builds Last Whisper to counter your Frozen Heart, they're not building another crit/AD/LS item. That makes their build worse against your team, while it's pretty good against you.

That's fine for a tank, because the opponent is going to do their damnedest to kill you last. You're already crippling your opponent's damage output against your allies by forcing a gold sink and incredibly slot inefficient item to be purchased. As a tank, you care more about your allies living than you.

sobi9992 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=43RYrdvf,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-03-10T21:35:48.779+0000)

Frozen Heart is a good item even if the enemy carry builds item 3035 .

Thing is, if the enemy carry builds Last Whisper to counter your Frozen Heart, they're not building another crit/AD/LS item. That makes their build worse against your team, while it's pretty good against you.

That's fine for a tank, because the opponent is going to do their damnedest to kill you last. You're already crippling your opponent's damage output against your allies by forcing a gold sink and incredibly slot inefficient item to be purchased. As a tank, you care more about your allies living than you.

The way you put that out is really interesting. Thanks. I learned something valuable :D

Lord Galvatron2 votes

FH is only good if your facing pure AD comps or multiple Atk speed champions. Last whisper is basically a damage item because it still gives AD and more pen (and more dmg boost/Grevious wounds). Most likely they will try to kill you 1st in fights because your the one in their face trying to cc them or peel for your teammates. Getting last whisper isn't a gold sink, they are going to get the item anyway regardless if you are a problem.

Iceborn gauntlet on the other hand is SOOOOOOOOOO good. CDR+Armor+Mana+Expanding Sheen proc that AoE slows. I build it on every tank that uses mana, the utility that item gives is too good to pass up.

I think Tanks are in a good place now (especially with the resident sleeper BotRK changes), and its only going to get better after the Vanguard update.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Frozen Heart is a more defensive option than Iceborn. It's not just good against pure AD comps and attack speed champs. High armor is really good against assassins. It makes lethality infinitely worse while also generally reducing any incoming burst.

Not xPeke6 votes

I agree CDR is found everywhere too easily.

But the real issue with damage creep started in preseason 6 with the new mastery systems, especially the introdcution of keystones.

They went for the wannabe World of Warcraft masteries system and it all went to shits.

Fondling Gems4 votes

I would actually say it mostly lies in the gold gen increase although other factors are present. Since people get their items faster we get 3 situations.

Two tanks in a lane are effectively the same. Still a wet noodle fight.

Two damagers now deal the damage to kill a level 10 player at level 6. Causes more snowball leading to more gold further enhancing the problem.

A tank and a damager. Usually one will beat the other and then continue to win because if the damage dealer gets ahead they will bully out the tank. If the tank gets ahead the damager can't do anything to stop them. This was the case before but the gold gen increase enhances the issue.

As much as I hate to say it supports caused LoL's damage creep since the gold gen buff was done mostly to help supports. League has had a lot of trouble finding the perfect balance between gold from csing, natural gold gen, and gold gen items.

When natural gold gen becomes too strong we get damage creep. When gold gen items becomes too strong laners take them. When minions give too much supports fall behind.

However if natural gold gen gets nerfed falling behind hurts even more, doubly so for supports. If gold gen items are too weak then supports fall behind again. If minions don't give enough gold then denying cs becomes a less effective skill and winning lane suddenly means a lot less.

SenorBobbers4 votes

Um no. If people are getting blown up in one rotation, the CDR isnt even really playing an impact there.

Melledoneus4 votes

What I see is that yes, damage is high as well. But the downtime of that damage no longer exists. Windows of power had become a steady wind of power.

hhaavviikk4 votes

I remember when I actually took a 20% CDR page on support and some other champions, now if I do that I can reach 70% CDR without even wanting to because of the CDR thrown everywhere

Gelmous3 votes

what is damage creep ?

Lord Phazanor 6 votes

Basically, when something does too much damage and instead of nerfing it they give the same amount (more or less) to everyone, and then buff damage items, and nerf defenses, etc etc... It creates a meta where buying damage is better than buying defense. Also, the fact that some tanks can do some absurd base damages. Basically, when the damage is slowly being upped patch after patch.

Melledoneus3 votes

It's basically a meta enforced by how much damage you can do. All other aspects of the game are undermined by damage, and the game becomes a stale deathmatch.

sobi9992 votes

TBH reducing CDR would be a hit on the face of mages which are not meta right now. If anything its the adc and assassin that are just dominating.

Melledoneus11 votes

Then bring those mages up to par. That should not be an excuse to leave the game in such a Rapid-fire bloodbath state.

Terozu2 votes

DD is not useless, or at least I don't think taking this build with it is: item 3153 item 3146 item 3812 item 3072 item 3139 item 3085 This build shreds tanks who don't buy thornmail, and heals you for 75% of your auto damage, + 30%(10% on aoe) of your skill Damages, people who complain that adcs have no sustain, this build, has gotten me to survive a full Kat combo, and come out with more health than I went in with, same with Baron, Elder Drag, etc, sustain is fucking hilarious with how much damage there is.

Melledoneus8 votes

Replace Death's Dance with Lord Dominik's regards. Congratulations, your healing against tanks just became a lot more than a meager 15%.

Terozu1 votes

Dominik's regards don't give healing, they give shredding, and if anything that should replace BOTRK, not DD.

Melledoneus8 votes

Five lifesteal items is overkill. Give one up, not the tank shredding one, and you have a tank's worst nightmare.

Terozu1 votes

Teemo with nothing but anti tank items?

Melledoneus1 votes

I can build that on Ahri and become a tank destroyer.

boba drinker 1 votes

{quoted}

I can build that on Ahri and become a tank destroyer.

8/8 b8 m8

Melledoneus3 votes

ADC Ahri is a thing lol

Leaf on Bush3 votes

That's a classic bronze ADC build right there.

Niyumi2 votes

Yeah, ADCs one shotting me is something to do with the 10% CDR they build.

Leonerdo1 votes

I dunno, Sunfire + Spirit Visage + Frozen Heart seems like a pretty good balanced core for tanks and it gives 30% CDR. The only issue is if the enemy is stacked with AD casters, but Deaman's Plate and Iceborn Gauntlet do well enough in that case. I'd like to mention Warmog's but I never see anyone building that. Maybe if Warmog's were better, and tanks had access to that 10% CDR regardless of enemy composition, that would be enough?

Shaco Psycho9 votes

I don't think he's saying that tank items don't have enough or too much CDR. He more or less said the tank items are pretty balanced right now in terms of CDR. He's talking about too much CDR on offensive items.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cooldown_reduction

doiminat0r36002 votes

He is talking about too much CDR period. It's at the point where half the items in the game have atleast 10%.

Kinda stupid considering that same half of the items are the only ones built anymore. Its either you build damage + CDR on a mage, lethality + damage on an AD, or 70% armor on a tank.

Kaeblen2 votes

trouble is, assassins and marksman get AD + lethality + CDR. they can get all 3 with little difficulty, whereas they ought to be making a choice between 1 or 2 of the 3.

Melledoneus4 votes

Frozen Heart is garbage tier because of Last Whisper being so damn popular, and iceborn gauntlet is so niche and just lackluster because it gives armor, a bit of mana, and an auto enhancer. Most tanks soak up so much CC and blow mobility they don't get the chance to use the Sheen proc.

The two worst tank items have the most CDR.

Neamean1 votes

Agree with everything except for essence reaver it is the only item where you technically HAVE to give up something to get the CDR usually you give up a slot for one of the B.F sword item which is either better crit, life steal or lethality. Also you have to build crit to begin with. It is so forgotten because every item and it's uncle has CDR so why get an item dedicated to CDR when the other item has something extra plus CDR.

Sad Tyrant3 votes

because it has two tons of mana regen every time you crit.

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