Simple and direct Zoe question

Karunamon··1 votes·1,205 views

Way back in the days when dinosaurs walked the earth and Summoner's Rift looked like a neon version of World of Warcraft (patch 4.10), Nidalee as part of a GU had her Q, spear toss, reworked (read: nerfed hard) with the following note:

With her oppressively high spear damage and catlike (maybe just cat-ish) elusiveness, Nidalee's been a contentious low-risk, low-interaction champion for quite some time. Specifically, old Nidalee's gameplay often revolved around the question of "when should I stop throwing spears?" to which the answer was typically "never."

To that end, our goals with this Nidalee gameplay update are to tone down some of her many frustration points while also giving her more options other than chucking projectiles. We also saw this as a great opportunity to cement Nidalee as a real shapeshifting huntress, which meant stronger ties from her human form to her cougar form. Additionally, by connecting Nidalee's offense with cougar form, she now has to balance her high escape potential against her ability to hunt down squishy targets ("Leap away or leap at their face?"). There's certainly more counterplay (and teamplay for those playing around Nidalee engages) when a cougar goes flying into the backline versus a single nuclear-tipped spear.

Let's do a quick find and replace on that first paragraph:

With her oppressively high star damage and childlike (maybe just child-ish) elusiveness, Zoe's been a contentious low-risk, low-interaction champion for quite some time. Specifically, Zoe's gameplay often revolved around the question of "when should I stop throwing paddle stars?" to which the answer was typically "never."

My question is thus:

#How do those concerns about Nidalee Q not describe Zoe Q to a tee, and why does the same reasoning not apply to her?

8 Comments

TehNACHO2 votes

Because, as with many things questioned on the Boards, context.

Zoe can't nearly take advantage of blind potshots through fog of war. Zoe's Paddlestar hurts but it's nowhere near the freight train that is a max range Nidalee spear in and of itself. Nidalee's spears just at her rework did 575 (+ 162.5% AP) at max range. For Zoe to hit something comparable, she needs to push close to the 2000 units range to achieve that outcome. This is compounded by the fact that Paddlestar is hard anchored to 800 units away from Zoe, while Nidalee can hit from as far as 1500 units away or technically more if she runs the opposite direction. Nidalee's spears have a shorter cooldown on top of starting on cast, not when the ability ends as is the case with Zoe's Q.

And this is her Q alone. Let's not forget Nidalee's built in Heal and attack speed and her far more slippery pounce to make her the ultimate sieging champ, whereas Zoe is more of a higher risk reward burst champ.

Karunamon1 votes

Zoe can't nearly take advantage of blind potshots through fog of war.

I'd argue she can even harder than old Nidalee because the Q does AOE damage. If you think an enemy is somewhere you don't have vision of, Qing it (or better yet, Eing it over a wall) is a legitimate strategy with no downside (given the short Cooldown and low mana cost on those skills)

I guess I don't understand what you mean by this. If you think an enemy is somewhere you don't have vision of, there's literally no downside to throwing a speculative Q/E into the fog. (Or Ring into the area to drop the Q at higher range, though that's obviously a lot harder to pull off)

My point is that I read that first paragraph and it appears to apply to Zoe to a (certainly)T. You have no downside to throwing paddle stars all day long.

BlackEyesBlue1 votes

More like "I hate Zoe" topic #100000.

Congratulations! You win a slow clap! :D

Karunamon1 votes

More like trying to prove wrong the "Riot doesn't respond to complaint threads because they're usually just non-constructive whining".

Here, there is a very simple question, backed up with reasoning from Riot's own patch notes. Watch as it gets no answer.

BlackEyesBlue1 votes

{quoted}

More like trying to prove wrong the "Riot doesn't respond to complaint threads because they're usually just non-constructive whining".

Here, there is a very simple question, backed up with reasoning from Riot's own patch notes. Watch as it gets no answer.

Dude you are not even the 50th person to make this exact comparison!

You really think they are going ro come on here and just completely agree with you and rework her immediately?

Karunamon1 votes

Dude you are not even the 50th person to make this exact comparison!

Well then. Given that I've worded it in a non-confrontational, reasoned way, surely they'd deign to at least respond, right? Because that's what I keep hearing from the greater boards, everything is angry or whiny. Here, there's none of that. Here's why Nid got reworked back in the day, here's how it applies to Zoe. What changed? Why was old Nid a "contentious low-risk, low-interaction" champion, and Zoe is not, given that her main pain point shares the same issue?

Nobody asked them to rework her immediately. What I asked for, in pretty plain and simple language (which makes your comparison at least dishonest) is to explain their reasoning.

Fuck me, right? Surely it can't be that Riot just sucks at responding to criticism, and this "rah rah boards are too mean" is a lame rationalization away from that problem?

I illustrate1 votes

Kind of a biased post considering how her 2 main abilities are easy to dodge skillshots

I illustrate1 votes

as well as the fact that her ult gets her caught out constantly and she only gets her w for 40 seconds

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