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Let's Design: Items for Top laners

ProfDrDeath··11 votes·1,027 views

As many have noticed, the current itemization options for top laners tend be rather...lackluster, to say the least. Especially if they're of the melee AD variety.

Hence, I want to create a place to discuss possible ideas for items that would help these guys out. However, I'd also like people to really think about their ideas and not just put down an idea that'd make their favorite champion overpowered. Therefore, I'd like you to explain your ideas a little, possibly by following this structure:

Schematic for item design:

Pictured Item Name

Compontents and Cost Stats Passive(s) and Active Intended Role: What should the item do in a champion's build path? How is it good for the game's health? Intended Users and possible counterplay: Which champions should this item be good on? What would be the opposing champion's options when this item is build? How would he play against it? Possible abuse cases: Who/what circumstances could make the item unhealthy? Who could possibly abuse the item?

To start, I want to detail one idea of mine:

Doran's Flintlock/Hextech Flintlock

Compontents and Cost: 320-370 gold Stats: None Active: Unique active: Fires a single target, linear skillshot with good speed (think Ezreal's Q) and medium range (500-800 units). Does 100% of your AD to the unit it hits (reduced amount to champions). 10 seconds CD, reduced by 4 if killing something. Cast time is equal to the user's auto-attack time. Cast animation is Dominion's Channel Windup. Intended Role: A last-hitting tool, especially for melees in melee-vs-ranged match-ups. Reduced damage to champions to make it less of a harass tool. Gives melees something to do in a ranged-vs-melee match-up (as part of the frustration of such a match-up comes from the feeling of not being able to do much, and thus being a little bit bored). Intended Users: Melee champions without ways to get CS on range. The enemy'd have the option to block the shot, as it does less damage, but would possibly have to give up position for that. Abuse Cases: Ranged champions. Hence the longish cast-time - a ranged champion would be less rewarded using this in champ-to-champ combat, as his autos would do more damage.

So, with this framework being set, I am looking forward to discussing some ideas.

31 Comments

Pyro4 votes

##Atma's Impaler

item 3077 Tiamat + item 1031 Chain Vest + 780g (3400 g total) 45 attack damage, 45 armor , 15 health regen per 5 Cleave/Crescent passive/active (Tiamat) Passive: Gain attack damage equal to 2% of your bonus health

Intended Role: Defining the bruiser presence in mid to lategame: get some health, then get this item. The item is kinda bad when rushed (since the passive scales with bonus health now) Intended Users: Bruisers like Jarvan IV, Xin Zhao, Shyvana and Renekton. Can be possibly comboed with Spirit of the Ancient Golem for a bigger lategame, but requires health from other sources to pay off. Counterplay: If enemy rushed the item, abuse the low gold efficiency (you should get a better value in your items by then - as first item, this will provide no bonus AD form passive), and call for an easy jungle gank since Tiamat will autopush the wave. Keep in mind there's no lifesteal in this Tiamat upgrade. Possible abuse cases: Potential return of the metagolem, although champions like Irelia don't make as good use of Tiamat as it was with the Trinity Force.

##Leviathan

item 1011 Giant's Belt + item 3067 Kindlegem + 550g (2400g) 700 health, 10% cooldown reduction Active: Become immune to displacement effects (knockups, knockbacks) for 5 seconds. 60 second cooldown.

Intended Role: Countering heavy displacement comps (Gragas, Vi) Intended Users: Tanks and toplane bruisers, but in extreme circumstances (Yasuo comps) could be picked up on anyone Counterplay: Use your displacement before the target uses the active, or bait the active and play around it, or use other forms of CC. The item itself isn't very gold efficient, and BotRK will munch through it. Possible abuse cases: Vayne could have a bad day against tanks with that - although damage wise her Silver Bolts should just wreck users of this item. Also Yasuo, but in my opinion he simply won't be a must-ban anymore.

Hoi Im Temmo2 votes

I like your atmas rework. As it is, Atmas is NEVER used, and the idea is so cool T_T

YouLostMe1 votes

I think the official Riot stance on Atma's is "we're going to get rid of it", because getting damage by building tanky isn't OK. I can see how a low gold efficiency item might be a good middle ground there, but I don't think this is enough.

45 AD --> 1620g 45 Armor --> 900g 15 HP5 --> 540g TOTAL --> 3060g

The Active + Passive + Passive need to be worth 340g for this item to be gold-efficient. I'll just eyeball some stuff -- Giant's Belt and a Doran's Blade (it has lower bonus HP than DShield) with Juggernaut and Veteran's Scars (mandatory for a top laner getting this item) gives 500 HP, or 10 AD, boosting gold efficiency by 360g and putting this purchase in the black without counting Tiamat's passive and active.

That just seems too efficient, especially considering this theoretical bruiser has only one legendary item. Turn that belt into a Sunfire Cape, stack on Randuin's Omen, add a Spirit Visage or Banshee's Veil to taste, and run around as Darius making people cry.

Darkomantis3 votes

I think the official Riot stance on Atma's is "we're going to get rid of it", because getting damage by building tanky isn't OK. I can see how a low gold efficiency item might be a good middle ground there, but I don't think this is enough.

item 3027

YouLostMe2 votes

item 1026

MyAccountYouGuys2 votes

RoA gives bonus HP, it's true, but most of the usual suspects that use it Anivia Karthus Ryze are getting it more so for said damage, but mostly for the massive mana boost it gives. Plus, without the HP they go beyond Glass Cannon into Wet Paper Cannon territory.

YouLostMe4 votes

I think that's fine, and Riot thinks it's fine. But that's not what I'm talking about! When you buy RoA, or Liandry's, or Rylai's, you're paying for (and getting) both tank stats and damage stats. But when you buy Atma's Impaler, you can use it to get tank and damage stats while only paying for the tank stats.

Of course the "gain damage by building tanky" phrase is just a sound bite, not a hard and fast rule. It doesn't apply everywhere (e.g. Braum, Nautilus, Sejuani, Ryze), and it's not like it's such a terrible thing that Atma's has to be deleted right now. I mean, if the Atma's passive was priced high enough, it could make a cool dynamic where the item is weak early, useful mid, and strong late. But when you make an item that gives you the opportunity to exponentially scale bruiser power, you have to be very very careful about where it's used. IIRC, more than one Riot employee has said the abuse cases are just too much to deal with so they'd rather the item be deleted/unusable.

Pushover2 votes

I think the easiest way to see that this item is way out of line is to look at someone like Renekton going Atmogs (2830 + 3400 = 6230g) instead of Sunfire Hydra (2650 + 3300 = 5950g).

Renekton has roughly 2000 HP at level 16 from a Dorans and masteries. Warmogs gives 1000 HP, for a total of 3000 HP. Atmas would provide 105 AD and 45 armor.

Sunfire Hydra, on the other hand gives 450 HP, and the same armor, and 75 AD. Health regen is also even.

Would you trade the lifesteal from Hydra, Sunfire passive and 270 gold for the 30 HP/5 regen on Warmogs, 550 more health, and 30 more AD? That's like 2000+ more gold in items if we count the Hydra lifesteal even with Warmog passive. This doesn't even take into account the fact that Renekton will build more health items later in Spirit Visage, nor the fact that he gains a ton of health from his ult as well, which would in turn grant him even more AD. We know how strong Renekton is with Sunfire Hydra, making him stronger is not what is needed.

EDIT: Also the build path suits Renekton very well, he can either go Giants Belt first, or he can rush Tiamat, then get the other, then go Chain Vest -> Atmas -> Warmogs, which is just like how current Renekton will go Giants Belt/Tiamat, then the other, then Sunfire then Hydra.

EDIT2: I reread, it's actually bonus health. Renekton has ~1800 base health, so it loses 36 AD from what I thought it was. Still, 550 HP, 5 less AD versus the sunfire passive, not counting things like Renekton ultimate, or items you buy afterwards is a good tradeoff. Bought later makes in insanely good.

JackYAqua3 votes

(It's two items. The first builds into the second)

Seastone Thorn (1100 Gold) item 1036 item 1027
+20 Attack Damage
+200 Mana
UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks restore 9 Health over 6 seconds (stacks twice against champions).

A nice little item that offers some damage and sustain for general top laners.
I imagine it would be best on Jayce.

Branch of Sunlight (2970 Gold) item 1037 + Seastone Thorn +45 Attack Damage
+250 Mana
+20 Health Regen per 5 seconds
UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks reduce the target's Ability Power by 10 (+2 x level) for 2 seconds on-hit.

Intended Role: Should offer top-laners sustain through HP5 and Mana, while countering Mages. The Attack Damage is on a moderate level for Bruisers. Doesn't offer resistances, though, since the AP reduction equal Magic Resistance, if you can get close enough.
Intended Users:
Jayce Gangplank Irelia Hecarim MasterYi Shaco Vayne Quinn Trundle Skarner Udyr
Counterplay: Buy item 3020 item 3136 item 3135 over item 3089 and don't get attacked :) Can be abused by... any Marksman with Runaan's Hurricane and ...
Kayle item 3085 <- would be brutal in the mid-lane, I imagine.
Extras: The blade would look like a katana with a multiple of dark, nightmarish colors like purple, black, grey, dark blue and silver, in spite of its name 'Branch of Sunlight'. The name hints that it is a Blade of the East, since Sun and Tree in Japanese means 'East' (I think). The theme befits the theme of the 'Seastone Thorn', since eastern cultures are usually fishing empires. It makes sense that they'd make their blades out of Seastone, if such a magical material existed.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Repost of the Flintlock for discussion purposes:

Doran's Flintlock/Hextech Flintlock

Compontents and Cost: 320-370 gold Stats: None Active: Unique active: Fires a single target, linear skillshot with good speed (think Ezreal's Q) and medium range (500-800 units). Does 100% of your AD to the unit it hits (reduced amount to champions). 10 seconds CD, reduced by 4 if killing something. Cast time is equal to the user's auto-attack time. Cast animation is Dominion's Channel Windup. Intended Role: A last-hitting tool, especially for melees in melee-vs-ranged match-ups. Reduced damage to champions to make it less of a harass tool. Gives melees something to do in a ranged-vs-melee match-up (as part of the frustration of such a match-up comes from the feeling of not being able to do much, and thus being a little bit bored). Intended Users: Melee champions without ways to get CS on range. The enemy'd have the option to block the shot, as it does less damage, but would possibly have to give up position for that. Abuse Cases: Ranged champions. Hence the longish cast-time - a ranged champion would be less rewarded using this in champ-to-champ combat, as his autos would do more damage.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

[deleted]

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Like it. Just, Why answer my post with it instead of making a new one? As it is, it could get mixed up in the discussion...

Earl Eulrich1 votes

mh, fair point...I just quoted it so I wouldn´t have to type as much :/ still not used to this forums way of handling things compared to GD i guess.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Dunno, sort of promotes passive laning...not really a big fan of that.

UberAffe1 votes

I really like what this item would do to top lane but maybe make it a melee only item like hydra's is. Also to keep in line with other doran's items it should still grant ~80 health or so but probably not damage.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Dunno if it would need to be melee only - ranged champions have their auto-attacks anyway, and since this item would use the user's auto-attack time as animation time (during which you're locked out of doing anything anyway), you'd be better of with just an auto, especially when targeting champions (damage reduction vs champions).

Having it give HP might be an idea, if it would be placed at the upper end of the price range. I would say, 50 as max, though.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

Repost for better oversight:

Moonflair Spellcape

Compontents and Cost:item 1011 +item 1057 +receipt= ~3000g Stats: 450health 45MR Active: - Passive: (unique): Absorbs the power of abilities hitting the owner, refreshing his ressources (Energy or Mana) by 1-10%, depending on missing Mana/Energy Intended Role: An alternative as primary MR item...as currently only Banshees seems viable, SV only on a few champs with strong self-heals. It also solves Mana/Energy problems on tanks that are currently forced to rush either Chalice (and not be too tanky) or Rota (which doesn´t work for Energy-Champs, that lack itemization anyway) Intended Users: Tanks that want to stand in front of their teams and protect them with their Body (and their abilities) Abuse Cases: Maybe Lee would have acess to too much Energy that way

UberAffe1 votes

I like this item if mana/energy absorption either only works every ~20 seconds and stops cc or damage not both, or it absorbs mana/energy for every spell hit but doesn't block any damage/cc. also only on enemy spell casts otherwise there could be a lot of abuse with heals and ally buffs. -would this do anything for mana-less/energy-less champs?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Yea, it´s clearly not meant to absorb dmg/cc...just to restore ressources on being hit - sorry if that had been unclear. and i don´t think there could be a good way to give more ressources to champs that neither have mana nor energy, as they are really balanced around that specific ressource.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Definitely an interesting item for certain tanks.

Not sure if there should be a way to regain energy outside of the specific champion's kits - they are usually balanced around their specific way of using and regaining energy.

1 - 10% here refers to the damage the ability blocked by it would do?

MyAccountYouGuys1 votes

I think it's just talking about the amount of Mana it restores.

Having any item generate Energy makes it an instant 'buy or die' on the various champs that use it, so I'd say keep it to mana regen. Other than that I do so dearly want an MR item that isn't Banshee's or SV, outside of ARAM with the Winter's Orb.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

1-10%refers to energy/mana restored per ability blocked...so to say, if you have 1% of your maxmana and block an ability you will regain 10% (so you´ll now have 11%), if you had 90% you will regain 1% (->91%). And it should work for Energy the same way..the values are rather low if you´re not standing in some heavy crossfire and the only real Energy-tank that can use it well curently is Shen, who suffers insane energy problems anyway in fights (for akali and lee it´s more niche, for kennen aswell).

Cloud Potato2 votes

I'm Terrible at Names (ITaN) Glacial Shroud + Pickaxe + Money = Around 2500 or so Gold 30 AD + 200 Mana + 50 Armor + 10% CDR Unique Passive: Increases owner's Armor by 6 for each basic attack received, up to 5 times (+30) Unique Active: Consumes 5 stacks to restore 30 + X% of the owner's maximum Mana

The use of this item is to give AD champions extra survivability and mana sustain in extended trades, which inherently involve interaction as opposed to firing off abilities at a range. Later on in the game when mana isn't a problem the champion will simply not bother removing the stacks and instead provides a pretty neat 80 Armor on a moderately priced item.

Champions that will use this item will be tanky AD champions who fight in close range for extended periods of time who do not have the mana to do so repeatedly. Alternatively, any tanky AD champions who are facing a ranged champion who use their autoattacks. Since AD + Armor and AD + Mana are rare stat combinations there are plenty of champions who would like this item as an option, but in general squishies won't make use of it since 1: if you want a touch of tankiness, you mainly want Health, not Armor or MR, and 2: you need to be able to survive at least 5 autoattacks and still have a good amount of HP left in order to make good use of the bonus Armor or the active.

Counterplay to this item isn't really necessary. The main point is to give more mana when you fight, and mana isn't useful if you can't land your abilities. On champions who don't have counterplay in their kits? Well, yeah, and as such...

Abuse? Sure! Anyone whose harass is gated by their mana such as Pantheon or Gangplank can just go into melee after they run out of mana and restore some back... except they're now actually interacting with their opponent rather than just poking them into oblivion. Ranged champions won't get autoattacked often without being forced out of lane, and hey, if they won't buy Mercurial Scimitar with its 80 AD, what are the odds of them buying something with 30?

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Potentially 80 Armor is huge for only 2500 gold, especially if you consider the other stats, too. Especially since the only Armor block item in this is a Cloth Armor. Maybe lower it a bit? 35 + 30 through stacks for 65 total?

In general, I don't like a stacking mechanism that (only) works on being hit - but that might be personal bias.

Is there a falloff time for the stacks? And do they fall off 1 at a time or all together?

%-based mana regen is potentially huge. It'd rather have it be a flat amount, possibly with a scaling through champion levels.

But generally, like your idea. Good concept for a defensively-oriented AD item.

For names, maybe something like Newton's Crystalline Shell? Refering to non-Newtonian Fluids here, an example of which is a fluid of a lot of starch in water, which becomes stiffer upon receiving more pressure.

Cloud Potato1 votes

I used Thornmail and Frozen Heart as comparisons for the total Armor value; considering that FH gives a powerful aura and Thornmail gives more Armor and is cheaper, I thought 80 was an okay amount, especially with the ramp-up. The purpose of the ramp-up being tied to being hit is to encourage interaction particularly on close range champions. Most mana items are independent on interaction, which is more effective on champions that make use of ranged harass, so this item is for champions who are forced in melee range, as well as encouraging melees with ranged abilities to fight more often as well. Additionally in a melee vs ranged matchup it's a lot easier to get stacked.

The stacks should probably fall off all at once after a medium amount of time, so it won't fall off while being kited. In combat the main tradeoff should be 'do I want the mana now, or should I keep my defense?', rather than 'my stacks are almost run out, better use the active'. There should probably be a cooldown after use though, to prevent constant passive use in a snowballing matchup. As for the % restore, it probably doesn't need to be there. It could be boosted by lower mana amounts instead or something.

Trerano2 votes

I really like this item, could get me to actually play manabased champions more often. :D It might be interesting for some supports too (Blitzcrank and Taric for example).

But I think it needs some bigger tradeoffs. I split this into two parts, first you need a tradeoff for the armourstacking, since you can't just have normal values with the potential to gain even more, while the unstacked item can't be too weak either. The second part gives some examples for interesting tradeoffs beyond the mere mana/armour trade. This part isn't really essential to the item but could give you some ideas for an itemupgrade, because I think your item should be cheaper (with lower stats of course) to be accessible early and could then receive an update to a bigger item that stays usefull throughout the game.

Part 1: You could reduce the base armour of the item by 18, increase the stacksize to 8 and give it 3 "starting-stacks". Now, if you activate the item, you would effectively shred your armour below the starting stats. As long as you have less than 3 stacks the item can generate stacks on its own but until then you are actually weaker than before. Also, if your opponent is really passiv or you play from far back you can still consume those 3 stacks to regain mana, making you vulnerable but able to use spells for better waveclear etc. Activating the item should then remove all your stacks and grant mana based on the amount of stacks removed. The mana per stack should probably increase with the stacksize too, otherwise the starting-stacks could get abused by pokechamps.

Part 2: Removing the maximum amount of stacks could grant a bonus to make the active part more attractive beyond the laningphase. For example a short movementspeed-bonus, sacrificing 48 armour to escape/chase faster, although this might make it a too strong alrounder. An interesting tradeoff could be to sacrifice your max-stacks and in return block the next incoming attack/spell (or maybe even turret hit). This would fit in with the itemtheme too. Well, there are a lot of ways to add interesting tradeoffs between staying stacked and consuming the stacks. And since I think your base item should be cheaper anyways, this would make a nice upgrade.

Cloud Potato1 votes

Part 1: You could reduce the base armour of the item by 18, increase the stacksize to 8 and give it 3 "starting-stacks". Now, if you activate the item, you would effectively shred your armour below the starting stats. As long as you have less than 3 stacks the item can generate stacks on its own but until then you are actually weaker than before. Also, if your opponent is really passiv or you play from far back you can still consume those 3 stacks to regain mana, making you vulnerable but able to use spells for better waveclear etc. Activating the item should then remove all your stacks and grant mana based on the amount of stacks removed. The mana per stack should probably increase with the stacksize too, otherwise the starting-stacks could get abused by pokechamps.

Having each stack give more mana would work just fine. The main reason the stacks are there is to prevent champions who don't trade for an extended time from getting the full use out of the item.

Part 2: Removing the maximum amount of stacks could grant a bonus to make the active part more attractive beyond the laningphase. For example a short movementspeed-bonus, sacrificing 48 armour to escape/chase faster, although this might make it a too strong alrounder. An interesting tradeoff could be to sacrifice your max-stacks and in return block the next incoming attack/spell (or maybe even turret hit). This would fit in with the itemtheme too. Well, there are a lot of ways to add interesting tradeoffs between staying stacked and consuming the stacks. And since I think your base item should be cheaper anyways, this would make a nice upgrade.

I didn't suggest a late game use for the active on purpose. One of the key issues of tanky champions is that the defense you need to survive in a teamfight is much higher than in a 1v1, and a key issue with mana sustain items is that the sustain generally isn't useful late game. The stacking hits both of these problems by giving a reason to lower your defense in lane but not in a teamfight.

While we could give the active a teamfight oriented use for consuming all the stacks, it would have to be something that isn't very useful in lane, or at least not useful after an extended trade. I'm not too attached to the cost, but I think the item should be slot efficient enough to be worth keeping at 6 items, since we only have one AD/Armor item currently.

Stacona2 votes

Orb of Winter [Summoner's Rift Rework] Cost: Negatron Cloak(720g) + Negatron Cloak(720g) + Null-Magic Mantle(400g) + 760g = 2600g Stats: 100 magic resistance UNIQUE Active "Wonderful Winter": Create a barrier of snow around the user for the next 3 seconds, the next enemy ability that hits will break this barrier to heal the user for 200 plus 15% of the user's maximum health. 25 seconds cooldown.

MrSc0tty1 votes

gonna bring my Doran's Cloak in from the other thread.

400g Stats: 80 HP, 3 HP/5, 3 MP/5 Unique Passive: Reduces the magic damage of any ability by 10, or any DoT by 1 per tick.

The fourth Dorans item that should exist already. I.E. Why no melee laner can currently lane against a ranged opponent.

Fisk1 votes

I don't really think that ad melee tops are that hurt by items BUT I actually think ap bruisers are somewhat limited. The only good ap bruiser items areitem 1056 (early)item 3027 item 3116 , item 3001 (sometimes), item 3157 (ish because it ONLY gives you armor and not to much tank but still pretty good..) item 3152 (on a few of them but spell vamp just isn't really a great stat atm) and item 3151 . This would be fine except a good chunk of the ap tops dont use mana (rumble/vlad) so RoA is out of the question. So is D ring. Then abyssal scepter is a meh item unless they are stacking MR or have a lot of magic damage. So basically all ap bruisers are limited to the same 3-4 items every game and have to start the defensive dorans sheild. Compare that to the ad pool item 1054 item 1075 item 3074 item 3156 item 3072 item 3153 item 3022 item 3071 item 3078 item 3139item 3142 And things start to look a little dicey buildwise for the AP compatriots.

Also I've probably missed a few items so sorry if I did xDDD Like item 3025 for example is a good ad bruiser item

Edyr4201 votes

Ancient Berserker Greatsword item 3005 + item 1055+ item 1075 + 120 Gold = (3300 in total) Stats: 50 armor, 20% crit, 20+ attack damage. 200 HP Passive: unique: You gain attack damage equal to 1.5% of your maximum health. Active: Sacrifices 5% of your health to deal 10% more damage for 12 seconds. (50 seconds cooldown) Intended Role: To give bruiser some lategame power Intended Users: Renekton, J4, Xin, Shyvana, GP, Trundle.

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