When Ruinc Echoes is the best JG item on Gragas

ofart·Feb 21, 2016·46 votes·5,466 views

despite how well he works for the tanky/CC role, the fact that he has a 4% max HP restore passive and given that his W is a damage reduction skill (amplifying the strength of HP), you know that either Cinderhulk is too weak (quite likely imo) or Runic Echoes is overtuned.

It could be a little of both but an understated advantage for Runic Echoes is just how much faster you can clear. That extra income slowly snowballs the game and also frees you up for more map plays/counterjungling/warding etc. If Cinderhulk were to get buffed, I think the Immolate passive's damage vs monsters is the first place they should look at. Junglers like Nidalee or Elise outclass many tank junglers so hard not just because of their kits but because of their insane clear speed relative to them.

53 Comments

63536895_DELFeb 21, 201622 votes

Gragas actually has pretty good ap ratios and that could be why, he was a burst mage long before he was a tank. I agree Cinderhulk could use a buff, so many games I want to build Sunfire but I don't because the passive doesn't stack, and Sunfire's is superior to Cinderhulks. Also I feel Cinderhulk should give 500 hp instead of 400 but that might push it over the edge.

PrometheSFeb 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Death LoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3rctgHgq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-21T13:06:07.342+0000)

Gragas actually has pretty good ap ratios and that could be why, he was a burst mage long before he was a tank. I agree Cinderhulk could use a buff, so many games I want to build Sunfire but I don't because the passive doesn't stack, and Sunfire's is superior to Cinderhulks. Also I feel Cinderhulk should give 500 hp instead of 400 but that might push it over the edge.

That's true but a lot of it puts him in melee range so it's still surprising.

MrBuffingtonFeb 21, 20162 votes

Ekko Elise Evelynn Nidalee Diana Fizz are RE junglers that all get into melee range at some point; Gragas still has poke with his Q, and his ult is also ranged.

1MazaFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

are RE junglers that all get into melee range at some point; Gragas still has poke with his Q, and his ult is also ranged.

these champions get into melee range because they either have escapes (Ekko, Nid, Fizz) or go tanky enough to soak some damage anyway (Elise, Eve, Diana). Gragas doesn't have an escape other than his engage, so basically the point you're making is that you SHOULD build him tanky.

MrBuffingtonFeb 21, 20161 votes

Exactly; Gragas has damage reduction on his W and heals on his passive. I see no issue building Gragas like Elise, Eve, and Diana; he was meant to be an AP bruiser, not a glass-cannon carry. Most damage-heavy junglers build tanky after 1-3 damage items anyways, the difference is they don't go full tank.

yay nibbersFeb 22, 20161 votes

Elise, Eve, and Diana aren't tanky unless they build tanky items, and the only item Diana builds that's even remotely tanky is Zhonya's. Gragas can build defense items the same as anyone, nothing is stopping him from building Sunfire after Runic Echoes. Not to mention he has % damage reduction in his kit and a huge disengage in his ult, as well as a slow on his Q and his dash being a skillshot (and not a really short ranged one like Nidalee's). If anything, Gragas is the most effective at getting in an out of melee range among mages that build RE.

Mech0pFeb 22, 20161 votes

his ult can be an escape and also his e as you mentioned...

HandheldBrandonFeb 21, 20164 votes

Thats wrong.

He was a tank LONG LONG before he was a burst mage. He was originally designed as a tank.

He was just built as a burst mage and it got really popular BECAUSE of his stupid high ratios.

Faceless VoidzFeb 21, 20164 votes

You are confusing "tank" with "melee mage."

elon wątrobaFeb 21, 20163 votes

Wasn't he ad bruiser during early times? Early as in 1/2 season.

Faceless VoidzFeb 21, 20163 votes

nope

PB4UAMEFeb 22, 20161 votes

Gragas was originally played as a tank, back when bot lane was a tank and support.

For the longest time, Blitz was also a tank.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 21, 20161 votes

his ap ratios are petty terrible. some of the lowest actually. in total maybe ok but individually he does no damage

Mech0pFeb 22, 20161 votes

his total rotation can easily do around 2000 dmg which is a ton in my opinion... you catch out a squishy and there auto dead with his eqwr combo

LOL SpammerFeb 21, 20166 votes

Gragas used to be an ap mage. I wish he still was.

Mech0pFeb 22, 20161 votes

hes still q strong mage but because he has to go in and AA during the first few levels until he gets enough ap to clear waves with his Q hes almost useless mid... Take him top and go full ap youll be god like especially with how hard he is to gank with his e and r to disengage

EmollientNut0Feb 21, 20163 votes

Honestly Cinderhulk is by far the worst of the 4 jungle items. That's why Nautilus and Rammus perform so much better top.

EmollientNut0Feb 21, 20162 votes

Whoever downvoted me should know that every champ that builds Cinderhulk other than Volibear and Nunu have a lower winrate than they would without it.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 21, 20163 votes

It's not a big deal when Gragas can use Echoes well. AP builds have been rather reasonable for him for quite a while, but his meta build got switched to a tank build when Cinderhulk was really strong.

It is a problem when it's the best jungle item for Udyr.

AnagsFeb 21, 20163 votes

Runic is also arguably better on sejuani as well. I think this is because you can get health from the new mastery and build any of the better tank items right after. This combo gives you good early clear with the AoE damage and movement speed. Then you transition to tank easily. Cinder hulk really only makes sense on voli or mundo in soloq imo.

Bladerunner7777Feb 22, 20163 votes

http://img10.deviantart.net/d798/i/2014/120/f/e/_tips_deathcap__by_magmamork-d7glm21.png

SpoofghoulFeb 21, 20162 votes

faster clearspeed More movementspeed bigger mana sustain

you get gold faster you go places faster and when you get there you are full mana mkay

Cinderhulk is shite hell it wasn't even that good on release imo it was way overestimated, it was really good on sejuani as her damage was pretty bonkers, and sion could sue it well with his passive healthscaling but he wasnt even opressive with the item.

Gragas has high base damages and mobility and good cc it was back then just the best option available but even then sunfire was stronger.

YonsiFeb 21, 20161 votes

Cinderhulk was in no way overestimated and was extremely good on release. More damage than it has now that ramped up and a much stronger multiplier that made it easy to reach 5k health.

AbyssphereFeb 21, 20162 votes

You could have made the argument for Cinderhulk being overtuned when he started using that as a jungler given he was last in the meta as a mage.

PrometheSFeb 21, 20168 votes

{quoted}

You could have made the argument for Cinderhulk being overtuned when he started using that as a jungler given he was last in the meta as a mage.

Riot even reworked him with the comments about him becoming a tank or bruiser rather than a mage. You can't make these statements as if his kit has always been the same. Just because he has AP ratios doesn't make him a mage any more than it does Sejuani.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 21, 20163 votes

If I'm not mistaken Riot wanted Gragas to be an AP bruiser instead of a "fat mage". Then players started playing him as a tank instead and was way too strong, so Riot balanced him around that.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 21, 20161 votes

"Riot even reworked him with the comments about him becoming a tank or bruiser"

No they actually didn't, they wanted him to be more of a front line mage like Cho gath and not a ranged mage like Lux. He was never supposed to be a tank or bruiser, he just ended up that way because of how well he sustains in the jungle.

Skia AsteriFeb 21, 20162 votes

Why should it be considered a bad thing that when jungling a champion with item 3027 item 3089 item 3100 as recommended core items when they do not have smite would build the AP jungle item?

macromiteFeb 21, 20161 votes

notice how ludens is not one of those items.

Skia AsteriFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

notice how ludens is not one of those items.

And? That item is also pretty good on AP Gragas even if it is not listed in his recommended core items.

lofi n chillhopFeb 21, 20161 votes

the problem isn't that this champion wants to take runic echoes; the problem is that when someone builds full tank, it's beneficial to take runic echoes (and the same was true of runeglaive) because the clear speed and mana was so beneficial compared to immolate.

lilpokflufFeb 21, 20161 votes

The movement speed is why I think everyone has been using it. I'm not a jungler tho so not 100% sure

Unstoppable MonkFeb 21, 20161 votes

Clearing the jangle faster means the you gets the jingle jangle gold faster.

Gotta go fast. item 1001

LankPantsFeb 21, 20161 votes

Cinderhulk is too weak (quite likely imo) or Runic Echoes is overtuned.

Probably both. Echo's is getting a nerf on the PBE already so I'd say it's best to wait that out and see how it turns out. It's completely possible that it stays too powerful after though since the nerf seems somewhat conservative.

As for Cinder my best bet would be to change the %HP from 15 to 20. 15% seems a little light on the multiplier IMO so I'd say this would be a good place to start. If it lost around 75-100 HP for a 5%HP buff that would probably help out Cinder Junglers a lot since that evens out at 1500-2000 HP, which every Cinder jungle will get.

EndlessSorcererFeb 21, 20161 votes

It's probably being taken for the combination of movement speed (faster roaming and easier positioning for your E/R), clear-speed and additional burst damage during early ganks.

By the time teamfights start, you should have been able to purchase at least one defensive item and be durable enough to survive.

lolipopevelynnFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

despite how well he works for the tanky/CC role, the fact that he has a 4% max HP restore passive and given that his W is a damage reduction skill (amplifying the strength of HP), you know that either Cinderhulk is too weak (quite likely imo) or Runic Echoes is overtuned.

It could be a little of both but an understated advantage for Runic Echoes is just how much faster you can clear. That extra income slowly snowballs the game and also frees you up for more map plays/counterjungling/warding etc. If Cinderhulk were to get buffed, I think the Immolate passive's damage vs monsters is the first place they should look at. Junglers like Nidalee or Elise outclass many tank junglers so hard not just because of their kits but because of their insane clear speed relative to them.

cinderhulk is bad. with the recent buff to item 3068 its much better to rush that instead. you do more damage and get more tanky stats. item 1401 is just a worthless item now unless you are playing sion jg for some ungodly reason.

i wish they would just revisit the season 4 jungle items... elder lizard burn was so much fun and golems actually made tank junglers feel tanky. these lesser versions of items that already exist in game are so stupidly flawed and uncreative.

Oerba No NajaFeb 21, 20161 votes

what if they added some cdr ??

DehornFeb 21, 20161 votes

as someone who mains volibear jungle i agree. please buff cinderhulk.

SwiftKitten88Feb 21, 20161 votes

i think both cinderhulk and runic echos are in a good spot. its GOOD that Gragas can be effective with both it is the sign of a balanced and flexible champ. that can alter its role to the situation to best fit its team.

if we buffed cinderhulk it would become OP again. and we would have the entire Sejuani Volibear Sion Shyvana op in the jungle again

if we nerf runic echos then champs like Diana Nidalee Elise Evelynn Ekko would become worthless.

right now the only item i think has an issue is the warrior item i think that could use a buff

PrometheSFeb 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

i think both cinderhulk and runic echos are in a good spot. its GOOD that can be effective with both it is the sign of a balanced and flexible champ. that can alter its role to the situation to best fit its team.

if we buffed cinderhulk it would become OP again. and we would have the entire op in the jungle again

if we nerf runic echos then champs like would become worthless.

right now the only item i think has an issue is the warrior item i think that could use a buff

You're forgetting that many Cinderhulk junglers got nerfed along with their item. Sion and Sejuani would be nowhere as strong today as they were when Cinderhulk was first released. You'd also have to be god awful to use Cinderhulk on Shyvana.

The other champions you list are inherently well suited to the jungle and wouldn't suffer too much imo. Ekko and Elise even went Cinderhulk in the past without much difficulty. If Runic Echoes just outclasses Cinderhulk even for its intended users, it makes sense to nerf it.

WadeWilson1337Feb 21, 20161 votes

Good ap ratios and he can somewhat get kited easily, also he can have mana issues with cinderhulk early game...runic makes alot of sense especially when picking tank junglers can put you at risk of not being able to carry a game, whereas with runic you can carry your team that little bit harder. Cinderhulk however scales better

SammystormFeb 21, 20161 votes

Sadly I think runic echos is quite a bit too strong. It is making champions with any sort of aoe just clear retardedly fast. That is why you see champs like gragas taking it. Runic echoes outclasses every other item in terms of clear speed meaning if you take a champ that doesn't use it like lee you fall behind unless you gank well.

PæanFeb 21, 20161 votes

I honestly see no problem with that.

Back before cinderhulk era I was playing Gragas full ap jungle with Magus and it was some of the most fun I've had. Runic Echoes + the W aoe buff/change means you can 100-0 2 or more squishies if you hit your full combo when you get a lot of AP and thats awesome.

I feel like people forget how big of a burst mage gragas used to be and people are only remembering this fat dude that was really hard to kill.

TonsOfGainsFeb 22, 20161 votes

The issue is Runic Echoes allows you to both be a burst mage and be difficult to kill. It provides an insane amount of AP, bonus on-hit magic damage, movement speed for you to disengage, and gives you such competitive clear speed that you just snowball and end up with more items than you typically would with another jungler.

In other words, Runic Echoes provides all the damage you will ever need, and gives you the gold required to build tanky items shortly afterwards.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 22, 20161 votes

I don't know why they made Cinderhulk straight weaker than Sunfire Cape. They should deal the same damage to champs but more to monsters/minions respectively.

Hard4HamstersFeb 22, 20161 votes

I think the Runic Echoes nerf that is on the PBE currently should move Gragas more towards the Cinderhulk build, but not enough that Runic Echoes won't be used on him. Runic Echoes is a little bit overtuned as is almost purely based on the insane movement speed it gives in the early game. Any jungler that can take advantage of the item is going to because it gives them so much more map movement over other builds and it also speeds up clears and makes early ganks more damaging. On top of all that, it gives mana sustain, something tanks have trouble with early on before they can build any mana.

What is being sacrificed is a good chunk of health for the midgame teamfights (~500 health total at midgame), but as games are designed to be more snowball oriented this season, the sacrifice is well worth it for a lot more pressure early on. By all rights, Runic Echoes is just a better item right now. If the meta shifts or buffs/nerfs happen to the jungle items, I would imagine AP tank/fighter junglers might drop RE as a first item, but if you can use it right now ( Amumu Gragas Sejuani etc); I think you have a lot of reason to.

I think they need to bring Warrior and Cinderhulk to a level closer to Runic Echoes. Right now, Warrior purely gives stats, good stats, but it doesn't give as much as Runic Echoes does right now: mana sustain, extra burst damage (low scaling), faster clears, and faster map movement. You can actually see a problem with AD fighter junglers in particular in that they are struggling in the current meta. The only Warrior junglers you see have high success are ADC's, and I think there is a problem there.

Warrior definitely needs a rework to bring champions like Jarvan, Vi, and Nocturne back into the jungle in preferred buildpaths as they simply can't compete with many of the AP junglers that are strong right now due to Runic Echoes. Riot stated that diving fighters were on their radar and were edged out by the Mage Update happening later this year. I think a big thing that could help these types of fighters would be a change to Warrior Enchantment to benefit melee fighters a little more than it currently does.

As far as Cinderhulk is concerned, I think it is pretty good for champions with high base damages, but I think it is more situational than it used to be for champions that could opt for Runic Echoes. Basically, you get Cinderhulk if you REALLY need a damage soaking champ on your team. It might be about as good as Warrior on AD fighters due to them usually stacking a lot of health after their jungle item and with items like Titanic Hydra, Sterak's Gage, Maw, IBG, Frozen Mallet, and Black Cleaver, they can get their offensive stats elsewhere if they need them while also increasing their tankiness.

I don't know what they can actually do with Cinderhulk other than a possible small buff to its damage to bring it in line with Sunfire Cape. I don't think it will cause Top laners to opt for Smite like they did before as the jungle item is more expensive now (about as expensive as Sunfire Cape) and Challenging Smite is not as strong as it used to be. Otherwise, I think the item is fine for a large variety of champions and if anything, it just needs a little fine tuning in terms of clear speed and champion damage to make it more competitive with Runic Echoes.

KaxiFeb 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MyNamesAmsToki ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3rctgHgq,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2016-02-22T04:43:31.083+0000)

What is being sacrificed is a good chunk of health for the midgame teamfights (~500 health total at midgame), but as games are designed to be more snowball oriented this season, the sacrifice is well worth it for a lot more pressure early on. By all rights, Runic Echoes is just a better item right now. If the meta shifts or buffs/nerfs happen to the jungle items, I would imagine AP tank/fighter junglers might drop RE as a first item, but if you can use it right now ( etc); I think you have a lot of reason to.

This is so very very very true. I love the nod to the holy trinity of magic jungle tanks there; I love those guys.