WW feels much weaker

SirPurrr·Nov 10, 2017·33 votes·2,167 views

Don't get me wrong, he wasn't competitively viable or anything special in high ELO before. However, he just heals a lot less. Natural Talent was huge for him. He fully utilized both stats with good scalings on Q. The magic penetration and Fervor also gave him a huge damage boost. His ult. and Q have excellent AD scalings and Fervor gave 64 AD max. His base stats were also buffed less compared to some other junglers, such as Wukong, Volibear or Xin.

WW still has a decent winrate because he has a low skill floor. While his skill ceiling is actually decent and he has a lot of outplay potential, the skill floor is low enough that people without great proficiency on him can still be effective. The blood sense helps them understand what to gank and the terrible early clear without Tiamat also enforces that. A decent winrate doesn't mean WW is OK unless that winrate also exists in Diamond+.

32 Comments

StinrygarNov 10, 201712 votes

he got really gimped on the base stats and got no compensation buff to Q to make up for Sorcery + Natural Talent

net nerf but not a huge one

he probably will never see competitive play as long as he requires farming 1050g to even clear on par with other junglers + he falls off in late game teamfighting

SuperCosmicHoboNov 10, 20179 votes

Problematic thing is, if he heals too much it is a problem. Heals too little, a problem.

Chembaron YamadaNov 10, 20174 votes

That is true for everything in the game, though.

Rammus has too much armor? Problem. Too little? Problem If Draven deals too much damage, it's a problem. Same if he deals too little.

NymzoNov 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Problematic thing is, if he heals too much it is a problem. Heals too little, a problem.

item 3123

SuperCosmicHoboNov 10, 20171 votes

-40% you still heal quite a lot. A lot of champs do lol

PB4UAMENov 11, 20171 votes

You don't play sustained based characters, do you.

SuperCosmicHoboNov 11, 20171 votes

Not an adc player or so, no. But all I know is sustain healing can outlast tanks.

PB4UAMENov 11, 20171 votes

Well, it depends a lot on what type of champion we are talking about.

ADCs with 2+ items and lifesteal, yeah they can melee draintank assassins and juggernauts without even attempting to kite, and there, absolutely, -40% healing just isn't enough because their actual damage is so ludicrous that healing for just 5% of it is more damage than they are likely taking.

However, the problem is on champions like Olaf, Illaoi, Darius, Vladimir, Volibear, etc that RELY on base healing TO BE ABLE TO DO THEIR JOB losing 40% of that healing makes them simply die, and usually without being able to contribute anything meaningful.

devdev463Nov 10, 20175 votes

WWs win rate in diamond + (according to lolalytics) is 51.60% though, which is pretty solid.

nGioNov 10, 20174 votes

Damage is just absurdly stupid atm, and his sustain doesn't matter when he is getting popped INSTANTLY. When you see 5k Chogaths getting smashed in under 2 seconds, 600 AD Rengars insta-killing anything with a heartbeat, and Dusk Blade Pantheons dropping bruisers from 100-0 during 1 stun duration, WW is going to struggle.

WW thrives on back and forth skirmishes, but those aren't happening atm, because AD ranged and melee are just shitting on everything so fast that real 'fights' never really take place. Do what I've seen every other bruiser, tank, and off-tank do today, just build Dusk Blade and spec your runes for maximum damage.

Devilreaper XIIINov 10, 20173 votes

all ap was nerfed :/ and ad got buffed T.T

ThefrostyvikingNov 10, 20172 votes

Not quite?

Magic resistance was nerfed across the board, and many of the sorcery runes are actually really strong, especially on poke mages it seems.

Many lux/vel koz/ziggs/xerath players have noticed a sudden rise in effectiveness exactly because of this.

Mages that can consistently poke are really hard to handle now.

Devilreaper XIIINov 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not quite?

Magic resistance was nerfed across the board, and many of the sorcery runes are actually really strong, especially on poke mages it seems.

Many lux/vel koz/ziggs/xerath players have noticed a sudden rise in effectiveness exactly because of this.

Mages that can consistently poke are really hard to handle now.

impossible, the ap runes we had on mages are gone = less ap in game, the only mage unaffected by this is ryze, as far as i know.

lux/vel koz/ziggs and xerath were op to begin with now they are less op but still noticeably strong.

champions like soraka/zyra/zilean, mainly champions used for support are feeling the nerf hard. i can tell you i'm thinking about using spellthief over amulet, but the only problem is gold income, i mean with spellthief you won't be able to build as fast as normal.

poke now has meteor or aery but they aren't that strong really. what actually causes the damage is domination, more precise the ''cheap shot'' when you movement impair true damage every 4 seconds or ''sudden impact'' gain more penetration after blink/tp/dash, aka the jungler/ad runes.

ThefrostyvikingNov 10, 20171 votes

Dude, we get +AP or +AD just for taking domination/precision or sorcery.

And it's the same or even more than before depending on which one.

And there wasn't any compensation for lost magic resist in the patch buffs, a indirect buffs to mages.

And heck no man O_O

Comet is actually really good on poke mages, on lux i was able to do like 1,5 k damage under laning phase with it, it is a really good lane pressure rune.

Add in scorch and mananflow band and i was throwing out poke every 20 seconds and steadily dropping their health down to kill range without ever having mana problems.

Vel koz main/player i talked to also had the same deal going.

Cheap shot is like 12-30 damage, it's not really a lot on it's own, but if you consistently poke with it, scorch, comet and what else you´ll suddenly end up dealing good damage.

But sudden impact is a whole other deal, the ones that can use it well are really feeling good.

astralwitNov 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Dude, we get +AP or +AD just for taking domination/precision or sorcery.

And it's the same or even more than before depending on which one.

And there wasn't any compensation for lost magic resist in the patch buffs, a indirect buffs to mages.

And heck no man O_O

Comet is actually really good on poke mages, on lux i was able to do like 1,5 k damage under laning phase with it, it is a really good lane pressure rune.

Add in scorch and mananflow band and i was throwing out poke every 20 seconds and steadily dropping their health down to kill range without ever having mana problems.

Vel koz main/player i talked to also had the same deal going.

Cheap shot is like 12-30 damage, it's not really a lot on it's own, but if you consistently poke with it, scorch, comet and what else you´ll suddenly end up dealing good damage.

But sudden impact is a whole other deal, the ones that can use it well are really feeling good.

The difference is that Natural Talent gave both AD and AP (this made it much more beneficial than on most junglers). Eyeball collection is one or the other

Anyway, WW can sort of use Sudden Impact. It doesn't proc. on extended Q but it does work on his ultimate and he deals hybrid damage benefiting from both stats. It's not as good as on a Shaco who can proc. it on CD but it's still better than average.

Ariel the CruelNov 10, 20172 votes

Anyway, WW can sort of use Sudden Impact. It doesn't proc. on extended Q

This should really be fixed. That rune was practically made for him. (>_>)

ThefrostyvikingNov 10, 20172 votes

And yah, WW is just one among many that doesn't seem to have any keystone he can use really well for now.

Malz, rumble and Anivia seem to be in similar spots.

Ariel the CruelNov 10, 20172 votes

Cheap shot is like 12-30 damage, it's not really a lot on it's own, but if you consistently poke with it, scorch, comet and what else you´ll suddenly end up dealing good damage.

Morgana item 3116 Can proc Cheap shot up to twice per W. Her Q also becomes really deadly with those early game.

astralwitNov 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not quite?

Magic resistance was nerfed across the board, and many of the sorcery runes are actually really strong, especially on poke mages it seems.

Many lux/vel koz/ziggs/xerath players have noticed a sudden rise in effectiveness exactly because of this.

Mages that can consistently poke are really hard to handle now.

I'd say Ziggs actually seems a lot weaker than before. He was pretty weak last season too (mostly because his whole kit could be outplayed and he fell off late game compared to more reliable mages). I'm not yet sure why but Xerath is noticeably stronger (maybe it's the ultimate hat and CDR while still getting AP). Again, I'm not sure why but he felt too weak most of last season so I don't mind it. I've yet to see a Vel'Koz. Zilean mid has a slight annoyance with Aery applying on his ultimate but otherwise, Aery helps his lane phase (and he can E to get her back faster). If you want to combine Sorcs and Liandrys, it's no longer possible to get 40% CDR without Blue but overall the masteries are decent on him. I'd say he's actually a slight bit stronger because of the laning improvements and the fact that while his damage isn't great, it's a bit more impactful without MR runes in the game. Lux seemed a tad stronger too but she definitely wasn't OP in 7.21

I think you might be on to something though. I used to take 27 mr/lvl and 216 hp/lvl on WW. Thus by level 13 or so, I had quite good protection when paired with my E.

It's just harder to get all the stats WW needs in time now. He needs some damage for healing, ganks and clearing, he needs tankiness vs both types of damage as well since he's melee, he needs Titanic Hydra for teamfight AoE and farming etc. I still think he's OK but the pace of the game shifted and that is hurting him. Also, Shaco is just super annoying to face as a WW.

BTW: You get a decent chunk of AP from going Sorcery so no, mages didn't really lose AP from runes.

ThefrostyvikingNov 10, 20171 votes

I didn't write about loss of AP, was another guy.

I´ve seen a sudden bunch of Ziggs, several did really well too, that after months of not seeing a single one.

Goes the same for Xerath.

With mages and assassins stronger they are now much more prone to snowball, this has shifted the pace of the game quite a bit.

Some marksmen like Twitch, Trist and Vayne also regrettably benefited a lot :/

If they get past the assassins in the early/midgame and the mages they become hella strong.

WW is just one of those champs that dipped into several areas,this is not so great for him as the current system is quite specialization focused, i figure it might be a while until he and others like him get some help to get back on their feet.

And none of the poke mages were really strong before this all started, decent or good but not strong.

However, with a vastly superior thunderlord and a alternative one that can miss but is easier and more consistent they suddenly have options and can adapt quite well.

Electrolute i think it was called, the new thunderlord, while a tad bit harder to proc it enhances all ins so much it's almost absurd.

FeathermaneNov 10, 20172 votes

New Warwick does not have a low skill floor. Don't try to drag out that excuse to justify a fair win rate.

StinrygarNov 10, 20175 votes

{quoted}

New Warwick does not have a low skill floor. Don't try to drag out that excuse to justify a fair win rate.

winrate tells very little

there's a reason you don't see any WW mains in Challenger or any WW players in LCS/Worlds

he's decent in SQ but not a strong champion vs good players - weaknesses are too glaring (kiteability, mostly single target, mediocre late game after the rework vs a team comp., too telegrapghed, Tiamat reliance (really bad if he falls behind and can't get it in the first 1-2 backs) etc.)

perhaps his skill floor isn't lower than most junglers but I'd argue that at least the mistakes of a WW are less likely to completely throw games (like a Kha or Lee can). WW probably does have a higher skill ceiling than most junglers though. It's definitely above that of any other tanky jungler I've played. It's not just extended Q mechanics or perfect E fears with Flash and a bunch of other tricks. It's mostly that he plays very differently and game knowledge/experience really matter for understanding his map pressure/countergank potential.

SerophousNov 10, 20172 votes

I hate the tiamet requirement SO MUCH.

TaevaNov 10, 20172 votes

I actually gotta say that to me he feels exactly the same, if not even a little bit stronger.

Master LycanNov 10, 20172 votes

Dark Harvest is bae

GelsominoKillerNov 10, 20171 votes

Have you tried glacial rune? A slow on his Q can be pretty impacful

DeadUnbornNov 10, 20171 votes

That is good for early ganking but Imo because he can run so fast and has the Q+E combo I think there are better options for him

YoungFarmerNov 10, 20171 votes

Rip fervor, I take press the attack on him, because you know who doesn't like giving your team more damage when you gank.

DeadUnbornNov 10, 20171 votes

Lethal tempo gives you insane 1v1 tho

DeadUnbornNov 10, 20171 votes

I have found huge success with him ( I one tricked him into d5 though).

I recommend trying:

Precision: lethal tempo, overheal, legend bloodline (alacrity could also work but I like the overheal combo), last stand Resolve: unflinching (I play him with ghost), Revitalize.

For build it varies a lot, usually I will get triforce and tiamat, then tank. The reason WW isn't competitive is that his W passive and R sucks against organized teams, and he can't do the early game pressure that other junglers can. However in Solo Q at least last season he was one of the best junglers by win rate if you mastered him

Maligaro SpikeNov 10, 20171 votes

For starters let's fix his W that is completely ass to play with, sometimes you lose the blood scent randomly while the atk spd bonus is granted only when you land your first auto with low atk spd making WW feeling really clunky and making you lose early fights where one auto is the difference between kill and getting killed.

If riot does that I will be happy

ChuShoeNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted} A decent winrate doesn't mean WW is OK unless that winrate also exists in Diamond+.

I agree with this completely, but it doesn't change that everyone is still very upset with these champions Fiora Yasuo

I love warwick to death after his rework, but I thought I'd just throw in the point above. I believe it has to do with the fact that when you get outplayed with these champions, it doesn't feel that way, it feels more like it was brute-forced without any real skill expression (despite how much skill they take)

I know what I said was kind of off-topic, I just thought I'd bring up that point since I felt it was still somewhat relevant to the statement you made. Beautiful post sir [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]