So Riot, you actually are going to live with these Shen "changes?"

Melledoneus··96 votes·5,786 views

...or should I say nerfs?

I'm going to be fair and list them all.

Twilight Assault (Q): Empowered attacks now also deal 15 base damage. Empowered attacks bonus damage to non champions removed - 30/50/70/90/110. Empowered auto attacks for spirit blade colliding with enemy champion base damage increased from 15 to [15/20/25/30/35/40 at levels 1/4/7/10/13/16]

So you're completely removing Shen's ability to farm for a measly 15 damage. If this isn't a nerf, nothing is. Shen does not, and I repeat DOES NOT need more champion damage. He can half-health most top laners at level 1 if he gets three empowered Q autos off. His damage is fine against champions, he needs to be able to farm.

Shadow Dash (E): Energy cost lowered from 180 to 150 [Width increased slightly*]

The Shen playerbase has been asking for this for so long, so naturally we are ecstatic to see it. Except the fact that it's being shipped with a much bigger package of nerfs feels like Riot is trying to distract us by saying "hey, you wanted this, totally worth the other changes!" That being said, I've tried this on the PBE, and it feels smooth as hell to use. I've never had so much fun using his E since before the rework since it feels like it actually works like it should.

Stand United (R) : Base shield value lowered from 250/550/850 to 175/350/525 [new] Shield now scales up based on missing health of target, up to 160% of base Value (280/560/840). [Meddler noted this value is comparable to live at 40% allied health.] Cooldown increased from 180/150/120 to 200/180/160

Now, I don't understand these changes. Yes, we get less shield for more allied health, that I am ok with. What I am not fine with is the fact that we not only get the same shield for delaying our ultimate just to hit the sweet spot for a maximum shield (which in turn increases the chances of our ally dying before we arrive) but we even get a smaller shield at level 16 even at the maximum. The least Riot could have done is make the shield bigger to balance it out, but now the ability has become counter-intuitive.

And this:

Cooldown increased from 180/150/120 to 200/180/160

This was not needed. This was just wholly unnecessary and proof that there was not much thought put into balancing Shen. I won't argue that the ultimate needed changes, but nerfing the shield, the utility, and the cooldown all at once? You just destroyed the most iconic part of this champion and it makes me sad that you guys even considered this, much less implemented it.


So, let's go over our little journey of Riot's "balancing" Shen:

V6.15 Base health regen reduced to 8.5 from 10.

Riot legitimately stated that Shen's Vorpal blade sustain was lost, but Riot G-Mang told us this: "He can proc shields a lot to avoid damage and his base HP regen was buffed a lot."

So they nerfed his base health regen, but he still had his shields and his Q for lane trading and jungling. Then this happened:

V6.18 Ki Barrier Shield health reduced to 50 - 101 (based on level) from 52 - 120 (based on level). Twilight Assault Maximum health damage reduced to 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4% from 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5%. Enhanced maximum health damage reduced to 4 / 4.5 / 5 / 5.5 / 6% from 5 / 5.5 / 6 / 6.5 / 7%.

So they nerfed his passive shield at early levels and nerfed his only damage ability. Because he was seeing play in the LCS. Not to mention at this point his stats were horrible (he had less scaling HP than Sona, and they've gotten better but not like it was pre-rework), so it was obvious why he was being played in the LCS: his ultimate. Of course, Riot decided to nerf everything else regardless. And now that they're tuning his ult for the LCS, they're also taking away its practicality, its power, its uptime, and Shen's waveclear.

##So, in retrospect, here's what we lost with the rework: -Sustain -Poke -Range -Taunt damage reduction -Shield reliability -Waveclear -Tankiness -Roaming power -Ultimate ability uptime

##And here's what we gained: -Minor and unreliable %HP magic damage -A 1.75 second dodge zone on a 16 second cooldown -Minor health scaling on E damage -Relatively low scaling HP shield passive (relative to tanks) -A minor 35% single-directional slow for pulling an anti-skillshot through someone


I'm really getting tired of having to do this, Riot. Why can't you just do what you said you'll do? Why do you have to give compensation nerfs for already heavy nerfs? I honestly don't get it. I mean, how the hell did you manage to turn "balance his ult for pro play" into "take away the last few things going for him as a champion?"

Do you want to know the reason why I'm playing Shen mid these days? Because soon I'll be better off going mid lane and actually being near my allies because my ult isn't reliable, I don't have sustain to keep me against the lane bullies in top lane (but surprisingly against mages he's decent), any decent top can out-farm, out-damage, and out-sustain me, and last but not least you keep NERFING HIM FOR SOLO QUEUE.

I'm finished with my rant. Do whatever you want, it's your damn game. I've said my bit already time and again, and I hate to repeat myself. To all the Shen mains, out there, I'm sorry I couldn't do much to stop this stupidity from reaching live. I now await our impending gutting.

Signing off, #Melledoneus

166 Comments

Ralanr29 votes

Godspeed Mel.

Melledoneus23 votes

I sure hope he gets here fast. We need him now more than ever.

Skins Project4 votes

Sorry, shen is coming when your lower, the nerfs made it better for him to try to save you when your almost dead.

Might gotta wait a bit, or maybe stab yourself a lil? That might help.

Jet Sett4 votes

Thank God too, who the hell wanted to shield the diving support to secure a double kill when you could wait for his HP to drop, the kills to drop, and for everyone with %missing health damage to mop him/her up like dirt on a tile floor.

Mira Arya Enthe22 votes

Upvoted, soft spot for passionate mains.

Melledoneus7 votes

I appreciate the support. For some reason we're getting bombarded with downvotes.

Chønklord14 votes

As a shen enthusiast (not main, but I love the champ and loved the pre-reworked version), take my upvote.

#Let our (silent) cries of the ninja be heard across the rift!

Melledoneus6 votes

Together, we Stand United!

Chønklord4 votes

If light travels so fast, how come it's never caught a ninja?

If Riot balances so well, how come it's never nerfed a ninja?

Aseraan10 votes

i wanted to like his rework i rly wanted but its just nothing to the old one pre rework shen u had everything under ur control ur shield ur poke ur sustain now u have to pet rock this infamous"spirit blade"

Sad Tyrant7 votes

Would it be better if they reverted him to pre-rework state?

Melledoneus6 votes

No, he was arguably worse pre-rework since he sucked against anyone who built HP. Some things I do miss, though, like Vorpal blade and E damage reduction.

Over Innsmouth5 votes

Vorpal Blade was dumb. Champions with sustain on their Q are busted.

Melledoneus3 votes

Nunu Nerf pls

Over Innsmouth2 votes

So broken he snowballs every game.

Lowkey, I miss the hell out of Vorpal Blade and winning every lane just by spamming Q out of range, but I admit it was a dumb spell and the new direction for Shen's Q is way better (if horribly implemented).

50000000000000005 votes

Summoner name checks out XD

Also, for reference: Darius Nunu Renekton Soraka Taric Tryndamere Vladimir Warwick Yorick

Kinda if you squint so hard you can't read: Ahri Chogath Fiora Gragas Illaoi Mordekaiser Morgana Nasus Talon Zac

Over Innsmouth4 votes

Technically everyone can with a Gunblade.

Assuming their Q does damage.

50000000000000003 votes

Or if you bind summoner 7 to Q

...I don't know why anyone would, but they could.

Kaell1237 votes

yep I agree Shen was awesome! I have to say all of these reworks are garbage, Yorick is the only one that made the champ more FUN to play. Poppy is so bad now. Taric is so boring and useless, was a really fun champ. Galio was amazing now boring with situational garbage ult. warwick was one of my favs now I reroll or trade in aram. Shen was so great and so fun before the rework. Please tell me Riot why do your champion designers keep ruining great champs???

ForeverLaxx7 votes

Unfortunately, Shen has always had bad waveclear but he at least had sustain to compensate for it back then. Oh, and Sunfire Cape was better, too, and practically necessary if you wanted to push a tower without building 3 full waves first. Removing the bonus damage on his rework is a big mistake, though, since now he basically went from "bad waveclear" to "no waveclear" which means he'll just be shoved under his tower constantly.

Honestly though, I've come to expect this from Riot. They clearly have no idea how to actually balance for their game and sometimes I wonder what their end goal even is. Just for reference, I've been playing since before Season 1 and it's been mostly in this direction from the beginning. It wasn't so blatant sometimes, or as often, but it did steadily escalate to where we are now, where Riot just decides they want to change something for "reasons" and we're all just supposed to deal with it. Big Daddy Riot knows best, after all.

EDIT: Oh, fun fact -- I did this same kind of post a few times when it was happening to my main many years ago: Vladimir. No one cared then, voted down into the depths because everyone just simply hated Vlad so much that they didn't mind him being extremely awful and practically unusable. At least you'll get people to agree with you regarding Shen since he's so... subtle about what he's doing.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

The main benefit of the ultimate isn't the shield, it's the teleport. You can go from not being in a fight to being in a fight. It's even more beneficial now that the summoner spell Teleport takes so long to finish.

The Shadow Dash buff is huge. If it went live without anything else it would just make Shen crazy powerful.

As for the Q changes, tanks are bad at farming. This has been true of them since the beginning of the game. It's one of many reasons that Amumu Sejuani Nunu Ivern Leona Alistar Braum Rammus Zac are seen in primarily non-lane roles.

"But wait, Alistar Braum and Leona are supports. They were designed to not be able to farm." Yeah. Same as with all the other tanks. It's intentional. Just because they can't jungle either doesn't change the fact that they can't top.

Shen being able to top is questionable at best. His constant split pushing is one of the reasons he's so hard to balance. Shen mains would be better off if he was forced into the jungle, at least then his ultimate is barely more noticeable than Rek'Sai's.

Melledoneus21 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3jsu1IoU,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-04-12T22:44:58.285+0000)

The main benefit of the ultimate isn't the shield, it's the teleport. You can go from not being in a fight to being in a fight. It's even more beneficial now that the summoner spell Teleport takes so long to finish.

Except the shield is there to give him some sort of ally protection since the rest of his kit is unreliable. Not to mention if it was just a teleport it'd have a lower cooldown, and I don't think you'd like to get cockblocked every 60 seconds.

The Shadow Dash buff is huge. If it went live without anything else it would just make Shen crazy powerful.

Will they? Will they really? Have you even tried them?

Because I have, and it's hardly noticeable unless you play Shen all the time. It feels smooth, and it's something that's been needed for a while, but it does not add nearly enough power as you suggest.

As for the Q changes, tanks are bad at farming.

Galio So bad at farming. Malphite Please save me. Sion God I'm just dying from not being able to farm. TahmKench Man, I'm starving from lack of farm here.

This point is not true for many tanks in the game. So your generalization is incorrect.

This has been true of them since the beginning of the game. It's one of many reasons that Amumu Sejuani Nunu Ivern Leona Alistar Braum Rammus Zac are seen in primarily non-lane roles.

Most of those people have not been seen in lane not only because they can't farm, but because they work better than in a solo lane in those positions.

Shen being able to top is questionable at best. His constant split pushing is one of the reasons he's so hard to balance. Shen mains would be better off if he was forced into the jungle, at least then his ultimate is barely more noticeable than Rek'Sai's.

Shen was designed as a top laner. That's what he was released as, balanced around, etc. He's not a god damn mid laner where he needs absurb wave clear. Most top laners don't have that much waveclear, and Shen was one of them. His split pushing is far from the reason he's hard to balance, it's because of his global presence in LCS that Riot is up in arms against him. He's one of the most underwhelming tanks in Solo Queue.

That's funny that you mention him being in the jungle, too, because Riot specifically forced him out of the jungle before this set of nerfs with the Q nerfs, so where the f*ck is he supposed to go?

Your entire post is devoid of any real statistics or facts to back up your absurd claims. Please do some research before you come and start arguing shit like tanks do not have waveclear and that Shen was not meant to be a top laner.

Thank you.

Arakadia1 votes

Gnar In both forms has good farming.

Melledoneus6 votes

Gnar is more of a hybrid, and a bit of a mess in terms of classification, so I didn't want to take a stance on that.

Arakadia1 votes

He definetly isn't the best example. But even in Mega Gnar form, in which came he is a full tank, he can farm. But yeah there are definetly better examples.

50000000000000001 votes

I mean, he isn't supposed to farm in mega form. That's a waste of his rage.

Melledoneus5 votes

I mean, if you're pushing against nobody, why not?

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Just saying, but just because it's not true for some tanks (About 6 I've seen), that shouldn't invalidate that it's true with other tanks, and that Shen might be in that category.

Melledoneus5 votes

Shen's waveclear already wasn't good, even with the bonus damage on minions. They nerfed his attack speed and AD for the rework, and the removal of vorpal blade meant his farm tool was gone. The spirit blade extra damage on minions was meant to give him back some of his farming potential, but now that they're completely removing it he has nothing but his pitiful AD to farm with.

That's hardly fair.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Life ain't fair. That still doesn't stop the fact that maybe he might be in the "Weak Waveclear" category of tanks, and that his initial waveclear given from the Rework may have been a mistake.

Melledoneus6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3jsu1IoU,comment-id=00080000000200000000,timestamp=2017-04-13T05:22:50.134+0000)

Life ain't fair.

Oh, gee, real compelling argument, thanks.

That still doesn't stop the fact that maybe he might be in the "Weak Waveclear" category of tanks, and that his initial waveclear given from the Rework may have been a mistake.

His initial waveclear was because his Q is shit against minions. His base autos are not good and his attack speed is horrendous. And it's not even f*cking waveclear, it's a liitle more damage against minions that helps him CS.

Yes, he has weak waveclear, but that does not mean they ahould completely strip him of it. Now he has no way to farm in lane, and the skills used to manage waves and win trades with taunt and minion aggro don't mean shit now.

Oh but life isn't fair so I should just take it lying down, huh?

macromite1 votes

malph is a bad example for being good at farming.

becuase pretty much every other vanguard or warden can farm better than he can. farming is one of the things that tanks are pretty good at.

Melledoneus4 votes

His W and E are pretty good waveclear tools, though.

LostFr0st3 votes

Wait... did they force you to repost this?

Melledoneus13 votes

It was in the wrong section, and they didn't force me, they asked me what I wanted to do. The mods are getting nicer and I like it.

LostFr0st4 votes

Ah, I see. That is nicer. <3 Hopefully Meddler responds to your discussion.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

If the changes go through, I'm more than certain they'll be able to afford power in other areas come time. The point of these were to lower impact in Pro-play and the rest of us. They hit the parts that LCS use Shen for a lot, so I'm pretty damn sure power can come back to the rest of his kit.

And, I'm pretty sure through all this, it's been a Kassadin, and is going to be an Aatrox. It's a Kassadin, because they didn't want to hit what made him special (his ult), and so they nerfed around that. Now, they've decided, that the ult is realistically the best thing to change if they want to have a major impact. My belief, and hope, is that it's also going to be an Aatrox, in which they make some major changes that are going to allow power back into the rest of his kit. They've been pretty good recently with things like that, but only time will tell.

Unpopular opinion: Old Shen was a brick wall and deserved his rework

Edit: I enjoy how all comments attached to this are all at 1 upvote.

Edit 2: THE BALANCE HAS BEEN BROKEN.

Chønklord4 votes

Do you even play shen at all bud? Stop being an apologist for Riot when it's very clearly these balanced changes nerfs make him useless outside of LCS.

What do you not get about it?

And Aatrox was dumpstered as well. Statistics don't lie.

Melledoneus7 votes

Kassadin and Aatrox are perfect examples of Riot's mistakes.

I don't want Shen to become another one of Riot's mistakes.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Aatrox is finally getting back to a decent spot, he's been getting buffed consistently patch by patch. Other than the Jump-pack fans, he's getting good.

Kassadin was a long time ago, they've learned. I'm more than willing to bet that Shen will get a Buff the next patch, or even current patch.

Melledoneus5 votes

I wouldn't be mad if I could even trust Riot anymore.

We've been told time and again they would nerf Shen exclusively for the LCS. Every time they went back on their word and hit his solo queue even harder. This time, they went all-out and nerfed almost everything even remotely good about him and claimed they were "making him in better in normal play without buffing his pro play."

Riot obviously does not know what they are doing with Shen and, I'm sorry to say it, could listen to the people who actually play the damn champion because they are arguably more knowledgeable about how he works. Shen's win rate is going to plummet after this shit goes live, and I am going to custom-order a fucking neon sign of "I told you so" and ship it to Chicago.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

We've been told time and again they would nerf Shen exclusively for the LCS. Every time they went back on their word and hit his solo queue even harder

This is where I get exasperated, because it's really hard to do both separate. All they can do is hit the strengths that will have less impact in Regular play than it will in LCS. Sunfires and Titanics are still good buys on him, which means he'll still waveclear later in the game, just not as early.

Like said before, I'm more than willing to bet that Shen will be buffed either this patch or next patch. A lot of problems aren't solved by a single patch, it takes time.

We'll see how it comes out, and we can discuss then the impact. Though, I do need to tell ya, Riot HQ be in LA, the servers be in Chicago.

Chønklord5 votes

You know how easy it is for them to nerf shen for LCS and buff/fix him for Normal play?

Change/leave the ult nerfs AS IS, and rollback the nerf to his Q for farming lane/jungle creeps.

THAT'S IT -- shen = balanced.

Same waveclear with Q, bigger E width, but harder to land a good ult in regular play.

It's not like shen players are asking for a complete rework/rollback, just fucking undo the stupid changes to his passive/Q and leave that part of his kit alone.

Dextix LT5 votes

YOu probably are new here, because when Riot nerfs somethingm, they will keep it in the trash as long as possible. They do not "bring back power" they kill champions they dont like and keep them that way.

no to toxic1 votes

{quoted}

Muh blue ninja

Signing off, #Melledoneus

FIFY

Melledoneus7 votes

For your sake, I will spare you my wrath in case you had good intentions.

no to toxic1 votes

Telling someone you will spare them on a autism awareness board. Really made my neurons transmit informations to each other.

Melledoneus9 votes

That's enough out of you. Go to your room.

Lux KywaIker1 votes

Removal of empowered attacks against minions balances the damage buff applied to item 3068 which will now deal 200% bonus damage to minions and monsters. Shen is already an excellent splitpusher, not balancing this change would make him push even faster than he already does.

Ah and just wondering, why are you bringing back old patchnotes? The only important things here are Shen's actual state and Shen's state after patch 7.8. You are crying for no reason about version 6 patches, which sounds really ridiculous as you seem to find yourself out of arguments to put on the table.

Now, you get a buff on Twilight assault to compensate, but you don't seem to give a damn about it as you kind of take it as "deserved and justified". Ah, I think I will borrow this argument if you don't mind. Everytime a hero I play gets balance changes, I will claim that "the buffs are justified but the nerfs actually are unnecessary".

Ah, this is not how it works unfortunately. Shen is strong, as he has always been, and he needs to be balanced. So basically, as the empowered attacks nerf is actually balancing the Sunfire change, the only "nerf" I can see so far is about the ult. So now you'll have to actually think before using your ult. Do you want to get there faster but shield less or shield more and get there a bit later?

Wow it will be hard to be a Shen player after patch 7.8, seriously I would cry for you if I had any tears left after reading every crymeariver stories about patch 7.8. But, just saying: it will actually be more flexible than it is right now, as you can CHOOSE what you're going to do best and adapt to the situation you're in.

Your cries over Shen's changes are, imo, pretty ridiculous as it sounds only like balancing, not nerfing at all.

Melledoneus6 votes

Ok, let me put this into terms you'll understand.

Lux's E now deals 50% less damage to minions. Additionally, her passive no longer procs on minions. Her ultimate now has a 20% higher cooldown, her auto attack range has been reduced by 50, and her W shield no longer procs twice.

Sounds like balancing to me.

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