Two simple changes to the game that I think will make it a lot more bearable.

Melledoneus··16 votes·4,200 views

1- Nerf Conqueror.

2- Remove item 3124.

  1. Conqueror has broken many champions, and is turning some late game duelists whose early games are supposed to be weaker (Jax Yasuo) have become early game powerhouses that turn into unstoppable monsters that take multiple teammates to even take down alone, and even then it all relies on you having the CC and burst to take them down. This keystone hasn't been truly nerfed since its release and it's about time it is. Because when a keystone completely negates a champion's early weaknesses, there's a problem.

  2. As for Guinsoo's, this item has never been healthy and never will in its current iteration. Until Ninja Tabi's blocks the extra damage on things like Guinsoo's, this garbage will never have balance nor will it have counterplay. It's a 'win game' item similar in power to the old DFG. There's not a single champion who builds this that doesn't absolutely melt anything in their way after buying it. There's no real option of dealing with it, and it is certainly not fun to play against. If anybody on these Boards knows the counter to Guinsoo's, please, tell me. I'm at a genuine loss here.

By the way, would have said 'make turrets viable' and 'tone damage down' but any efforts to do that has clearly not worked, so this was the next best thing I could think of. Thank you.

25 Comments

Infernape6 votes

Screams in Kayle.

Melledoneus6 votes

One of the most unfun champions to go up against since few tanks can even avoid getting melted under her gaze.

IcyPepper2 votes

She sneezed in my general direction once and I died.

Malicious Metal1 votes

A champion in dire need of a VGU that makes her less BS.

Usernamehere12354 votes

I heavily disagree with you that Conqueror is too strong a rune. If anything, statistically it's an underperforming rune compared to its competitors.

Every single champion that takes it now was objectively too weak before it was released. The two most successful top laners that take the rune are probably Jax and Darius. Irelia does take the rune, but that's mostly because there's nothing else great for her to take at the moment. Press the Attack is bad on her because of her target-switching nature, and nothing else is particularly fitting, including Conqueror (it's just the best fit).

But I don't think these champions are overtuned. I think Darius, Jax, and Irelia are phenomenally well balanced and fun to play as and against.

I do agree that Yasuo may be overtuned with the rune, but considering the major Yasuo players aren't particularly insane with him, and considering he hasn't picked up TOO much traction yet, I wouldn't make any early judgment calls.

As a top lane main, I feel like I can discuss very clearly my opinions on the runes related to the role. Guinsoo's though, I won't even try. :)

Melledoneus4 votes

{quoted}

As a top lane main, I feel like I can discuss very clearly my opinions on the runes related to the role. Guinsoo's though, I won't even try. :)

So how does one fight or even interact with a top laner like Jax or Darius that has bonus true damage from level 1? It seems quite uninteractive.

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

Dude you have no idea, i bought Irelia the moment she came out, lvl 1 you have your bonus magic damage AND attack speed (all from passive) AND the true damage from conqueror ONTOP of your potion burn (and possiblesummoner 14 ). Your kill pressure is huge.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

I can 100% get behind point 2.

That item has broken something every iteration since it's rework with the first Marksmen update in preseason 6. Every. Damn. Time.

NemeBro2 votes

{quoted}

1- Nerf Conqueror.

2- Remove item 3124.

  1. Conqueror has broken many champions, especially turning some late game duelists whose early games are supposed to be weaker (Jax Yasuo) have become early game powerhouses that turn into unstoppable monsters that take multiple teammates to even take down alone, and even then it all relies on you having the CC and burst to take them down. This keystone hasn't been truly nerfed since its release and it's about time it is. Because when a keystone completely negates a champion's early weaknesses, there's a problem.

  2. As for Guinsoo's, this item has never been healthy and never will in its current iteration. Until Ninja Tabi's blocks the extra damage on things like Guinsoo's, this garbage will never have balance nor will it have counterplay. It's a 'win game' item similar in power to the old DFG. There's not a single champion who builds this that doesn't absolutely melt anything in their way after buying it. There's no real option of dealing with it, and it is certainly not fun to play against. If anybody on these Boards knows the counter to Guinsoo's, please, tell me. I'm at a genuine loss here.

By the way, would have said 'make turrets viable' and 'tone damage down' but any efforts to do that has clearly not worked, so this was the next best thing I could think of. Thank you.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Yasuo/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Jax/

Truly these are the plus ultra broken champions, the epitome of overpowered.

You're the type of guy who thinks with his heart, huh?

Melledoneus3 votes

{quoted}

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Yasuo/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Jax/

Truly these are the plus ultra broken champions, the epitome of overpowered.

First of all... https://i.imgur.com/dSj9OdS.gif[/img]

You're the type of guy who thinks with his heart, huh?

Second of all, I never said they were broken per se, just that they were no longer weaker early on and that they are incredibly monstrous in their scaling and are immensely more difficult to kill now without proper team coordination.

I mean, Malphite used to be hard counters to these two before free true damage was slapped onto a rune. After that his armor is less effective.

NemeBro2 votes

{quoted}

Second of all, I never said they were broken per se,

{quoted}

  1. Conqueror has broken many champions

You did.

just that they were no longer weaker early on and that they are incredibly monstrous in their scaling and are immensely more difficult to kill now without proper team coordination.

If this were so true one would think that they'd be winning more often.

I mean, Malphite used to be hard counters to these two before free true damage was slapped onto a rune. After that his armor is less effective.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Malphite/Top/counters/

He still wins against both, particularly Yasuo.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

conqueror is beyond weak

the only champions who ever played with it in msi are irelia and yasuo both are incredibly overtuned, but yasuo is getting a huge hit on the head in next patch

Melledoneus2 votes

Yasuo's getting hit on the head?

I didn't see any direct nerfs to Yasuo, unless you were referring to the IE changes. To which I say, he's going to get true damage on every auto. That's hardly a nerf.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

I didn't see any direct nerfs to Yasuo, unless you were referring to the IE changes. To which I say, he's going to get true damage on every auto. That's hardly a nerf.

perhaps the increase of gold to PD and IE were MAYBE nerfs

in addition to IE true damage being less good on yasuo than on other carries because he already has his ult armor pen

Rebel Phoenix172 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo's getting hit on the head?

I didn't see any direct nerfs to Yasuo, unless you were referring to the IE changes. To which I say, he's going to get true damage on every auto. That's hardly a nerf.

His items will be more expensive to reach

  • Brawlers glove costs more and is unique
  • Zeal costs more and gives less
  • PD/Stattik both cost more without offering more stats
  • IE costs more

IE change is also a bit detrimental, as someone else mentioned, yasuo gets free pen, so the true dmg conversion is a bit less efficient on him than other IE users. He still has the penalty of dealing less crit dmg.

  • At 100 AD with IE Yasuo would currently deal 225 dmg before armor. Now it will deal 27 True and 153 dmg before armor. Current IE will deal more dmg unless the target has ~150 armor (after adding yasuo's ult pen)

  • I'm tired so I'm not gonna do the math for his change in Q damage at the moment.

That said, I agree overall that Yasuo is a bit overtuned, and am not entirely confident that the item change will leave him in a significantly healthier state. I am of the mind that removing the safety net interaction of his ult under tower is a smart move, and if necessary put more power elsewhere. It's stupid that he has such a low risk "dive" because of it and shield absorbing return dmg from your target

TheCodeisCupCake2 votes

Hardly a nerf? When HAVE YOU EVER SEEN a Yasuo dive Cho'gath before Caitlyn or Xayah? Yasuo will always go for squishy champions first. Removing 50% extra crit damage is huge. Unless in higher elo you guys stack armor on ADC's then my bad but i don't think trading 50% crit dmg for true damage against a F***ing Ashe is gonna do much for the Yasuo

Melledoneus1 votes

You make a point, but let's not act like the other items won't boost his power.

The cost reductions in GA and BoRK. The new Stormrazor item will make him melt anything with the damage it grants him. He won't even need his ultimate to destroy tanks, which are supposed to be his check in team fights.

As for squishies, I'm not sure. His damage is pretty stupid even without IE. That's why Phantom Dancer is such a powerspike.

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

I don't not agree, Besides on storm razor. That item over all seems extremely stupid. EXTREMELY. Ignoring the obvious Yasuo synergy, John at 80% crit chance with celerity is gonna be hilarious to try out

3ternalkarma1 votes

{quoted}

Hardly a nerf? When HAVE YOU EVER SEEN a Yasuo dive Cho'gath before Caitlyn or Xayah? Yasuo will always go for squishy champions first. Removing 50% extra crit damage is huge. Unless in higher elo you guys stack armor on ADC's then my bad but i don't think trading 50% crit dmg for true damage against a F***ing Ashe is gonna do much for the Yasuo

so sir tell me once the new IE comes out why would yasuo still go conqueror? what is stopping him from going press the attack?

Rebel Phoenix171 votes

Rageblade is exacerbated by the larger problem of on hit effects in the game. Similarly to shields there aren't particularly good choices for responding to on-hit effects. Since many On-hit builds are paired with champs that have a %HP component, true damage, or otherwise will include either/both Wit's End and BotrK, both health and resistances always feel sub-par. And some of the CC specifically designed to react to auto-attackers is sub par. Panth's block doesn't have the uptime to work, Quinn and Jax will have trouble consistently reaching the Rageblade user, and Teemo's blind doesn't actually block all on-hit effects. There aren't really any items that jump out as "this will help against on-hit" in the same fashion as Randuins for Crit.

Beyond that it's just general CC tactics all with their own give and take.

I would argue the current iteration of Rageblade is the healthiest we've had, and am opposed to removing it, primarily for the sake of item diversity. A lot of items and builds simply don't see use w/o Rageblade. It now acts as the Deathcap, or Infinity Edge in its build, and I'd rather see better item options to respond to it (move Adaptive Helms power from its statline more into it's Passive to successive reduce on-hits as a quick option)

Doge20201 votes

I agree that guinsoo’s is kinda busted, but the main champs that get it are usually AA reliant champs (Udyr or Jax ), so you can build resistances or a frozen heart to combat that. And because these two champs are AA champs, it is kinda hard for them to get out of a fight once in, and their DPS is single target. From experience, cutting them off from their team usually results in them dying.

Sasogwa1 votes

Yes they are broken but they are the one things making most bruisers any viable. How are we gonna make bruisers decent without conqueror's? Btw conqueror's is more of a scaling rune, in early game Grasp for instance is stronger/safer, so that definitely doesn't make them 'earlygame' powerhouses. Rageblade was hyped a lot, but after a bunch of time ppl realize it's just pretty much a greed item that's really good in 1v1 but meh in teamfights.

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

Yasuo 47% win rate is a bit too high i agree. remove his ability to auto attack please.

But as an AD main i agree, Conqueror i way too powerful in comparison to other runes (besides grasp, I still think grasp is bullshit). Guinsoo's rage blade is too meta defining, But to some extent it brought back dead champions like kog maw and Varus.

Scuffproof1 votes
  1. If we can finally nerf Tank items along with it, sure. The only reason why Conquerer is a thing in the first place is bc of Tanks outclassing Bruisers in almost every single way.

  2. I agree that the item has its problems but why remove it? Making Tabi reduce on-hit damage sounds like a fair fix and I find on-hit DpS far more healthy than Crit burst with IE + Shiv + RFC (luckily that combo will be nerfed).

CrazFight 1 votes

Tbh I think riot is a little afraid to nerf conquer... they don't want to re alienate the base again...

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