I'm generally surprised there aren't more complaints about CC.

ModCaptainMårvelous··63 votes·17,259 views

It's a bit of a long topic but bear with me:

#Displacement CC

Displacement CC is by far too common. Back in the day (Like 2009 League) only a handful of champions had it. A few had double displacement effects but it still wasn't as widespread as it was today. These days, displacement is the go-to for Riot beyond the other CC (which I'll get to). Displacements also affect melee champions more than ranged champions, as a melee champion will have to reclose the gap to the target while ranged will (generally) still be within striking distance. It also cannot be countered at all, which I'll get into in the next part.

#Neutering of Normal CC and Tenacity

Early on in League, stuns/snares/etc. lasted far longer than they did. 2-3 seconds was the standard and there was no penalty to chain CC. To combat this, you had tenacity. Tenacity was similar to what it is today, although I'm fuzzy on percents. However, there were two major things about tenacity:

  • One is that it was scarce. A handful of tank-tree talents and merc treads. Beyond that I'm a bit fuzzy. It was also on certain champ kits.
  • Two is that it was better on melee units. As melee often had to weather more CC, tenacity would help reduce long stretches of CC/stacking.

These days, tenacity is a joke. Normal CC is also weaker as a whole, with most CC in the game getting shaved from 2-3 seconds to 1-2 seconds, with 1-1.5 being the more common path. In addition, tenacity does not counter displacement, meaning the stat is less useful against displacement-stacking comps...which are far more common.

#The Myth of "Feeling Good"

A lot of CC's weakening was categorized to Riot as "feel good". Sure, we'd all meme about Fiddle's fear lasting a billion years and being unable to take action, but Riot saw this as a horrible evil. To that end, Riot reduced much of the CC and replaced/added far more displacements. After all, displacements were short and easier to balance in their own words. This, however, was a problem. Because CC was weaker, the necessity to weather CC storms began to dissipate. In it's place was the arms race you see today of mobility.

Riot kind of misunderstood "feeling good" in this context. CC will never feel good, much in the way that an assassin can never feel good. To try and make a player "feel good" is a moot point when it comes to an aspect like CC. That's not to say Riot hasn't tried...

#Slows bring about the ice age.

Displacement might be more common but slows have also become more common as time goes on. After all, slows are CC but still allow you to react normally. Plus they affect every class equally! That is until you remember the dilemma of ranged vs. melee. To this end, slows also hurt melee more, as they have to continually close the gap. Ranged slows allow for better kiting, albeit it's not as common anymore. Slows also technically get affected/countered in other ways (Such as speed boots) but beyond that, you kind of have to just weather it.

#Fixing CC Disparity.

While I'm not good enough to provide a bulletproof fix to every single CC woe, I do have some suggestions that could potentially lead to fruitful outcomes:

  • Empower non-displacement CC

Non-displacement CC coming back could be quite useful. One of the biggest problems of melee vs. ranged is rendered less problematic if it's easier to pin down a ranged/mobile target. If tenacity stays as it is, tenacity can also be more useful on melee/tankier characters, making them functionally the same as they are now but weakening range.

  • Change Tenacity from "Flat CC reduction" to "Reduction to Chain CC"

Right now, tenacity just lowers CC by X%. What if, instead, it was a stat that lowered the power of chain CC? In this way, being hit by a 3 second binding still hurts. However, it also makes it harder to force a target to be pinned for several seconds. The more tenacity you stack, the larger your percent is. It's also more noticeable (You're not locked down for 2 hours) while also helping against CC spam that often feels bad to play against. Also perma-slow-bots.

  • Provide a legitimate counter to displacement.

Displacement has no counter, which feels bad to melee. It's been suggested for years but there should be a displacement counter, be it an item or a rune, that is an option against displacement heavy teams. Hell, melee might just want it for the sake of having a counter.

  • BKB?

Black King Bar is often brought up (an item that makes you immune to magic as well as CC in DOTA). I'm not sure it's the right answer, as it could further provoke the arms race of those who have mobility and those that don't. That said, I think there could be merit to more champs/skills/items like Morgana that prevent CC. Cautious maybe,

#TL;DR

  • Displacement CC is too common and affects melee more than range.
  • Non-displacement CC is weakened, both affecting it as well as tenacity.
  • Riot's "Feel good" argument doesn't work as the nature of CC will always feel bad.
  • Displacement's overabundance lead to the mobility arms race.
  • Slows are too common as well and negatively affect melee more than ranged.
  • Changing Non-displacement/tenacity/displacement can help soften melee vs. ranged match-ups as well as improve game health.

74 Comments

THE RlVER KlNG18 votes

people bitch about knockups all the time what

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

Fair deal, there are some CC complaints.

However, it predominantly falls into the area of displacements. People don't complain about slows as much, nor do they pick apart the CC system as a whole. It's far more nuanced and problematic than just displacements. Plus, when talking about displacements, it usually falls to the heaviest abusers of displacement CC such as Janna.

nelogis9 votes

Someone had an idea to make displacements more counterable.

"Gravity Boots: Duration of displacements are reduced by X%" And then some random stat ontop of it, maybe HP or whatever.

This is kind of the easy way but I thought about a new item myslef and came up with this.

Berserkers Plate: 500 HP 30 AD UNIQUE ACTIVE: When affected by enemy cc (excluding slows and silences) for more than 3 seconds in the last 10 seconds, this item can be activated to gain a X% movementspeed burst and X% resistance to all forms of cc for 4 seconds.

Something that helps out melee champs when fighting cc heavy comps but is rather useless on ranged targets. Of course the numbers and what not can be changed but general concept is the idea.

On the other hand, this is further increasing powercreep but I thinks it's too late to reduce/remove displacement cc around the whole roster.

Plus I kind of disagree with the point of empowering normal cc. Rammus taunt and Fiddle fear were really frustrating to play against, also the damage back then was lower so you actually managed to sometimes live through those cc's, today you get blown up in 1 second unless you are a frontliner.

Edit: I think it would also be cool if the active made it so it cleansed all the current cc affecting the champion too, so it's like a QSS for melee champs.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

{quoted}

Plus I kind of disagree with the point of empowering normal cc. Rammus taunt and Fiddle fear were really frustrating to play against, also the damage back then was lower so you actually managed to sometimes live through those cc's, today you get blown up in 1 second unless you are a frontliner.

The real problem wasn't that they were CCs but rather that they were point-and-click. Plus, you don't have to make that CC longer. More reward for landing a skillshot and all that. Damage isn't a good metric either because the game has changed: Damage had to get higher because CC weakened, meaning a CC combo no longer killed.

nelogis5 votes

The real problem wasn't that they were CCs but rather that they were point-and-click

No they just lasted too long and you were moving into unfavorible situations, I never really had a problem with Taric / Sion stun and after the nerfs to Rammus and Fiddle those were less frustrating too.

The game was very simple back then, point and click stuff was bearable other than some outliners.

Skarner still has a long lasting displacing point and click cc and that isn't a problem either.

Damage had to get higher because CC weakened, meaning a CC combo no longer killed.

Yeah you could say that but the damage has been buffed more than the cc has been nerfed.

The runes (I guess more like masteries) alone are around 250% more powerful than the previous ones and don't get me started on comparing them to the ones in season 4.

You would have to nerf damage, then nerf it again and propably one more time before buffing cc.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

{quoted}

No they just lasted too long and you were moving into unfavorible situations, I never really had a problem with Taric / Sion stun and after the nerfs to Rammus and Fiddle those were less frustrating too.

The game was very simple back then, point and click stuff was bearable other than some outliners.

Skarner still has a long lasting displacing point and click cc and that isn't a problem either.

You may not have but they were still very strong. In fact, both were removed due to the fact that they were point-and-click ranged spells that ate an inordinate amount of power budget. Rammus gets to keep his partially due to it being melee, as well as extemely telegraphed. Fiddle's is more about flavor but he's do for some more long-term work. Both of these champs are also predominantly junglers while Sion/Taric were not, meaning they have to dump points into the skill for it to be good and thus costingt hem in other departments.

Skarner isn't an issue because it's a big, impactful ult. Much like Vi, Camille, etc. Doubt he'd keep it if it was a normal skill.

Yeah you could say that but the damage has been buffed more than the cc has been nerfed.

The runes (I guess more like masteries) alone are around 250% more powerful than the previous ones and don't get me started on comparing them to the ones in season 4.

You would have to nerf damage, then nerf it again and propably one more time before buffing cc.

Not....really? Runes are more powerful than before but they also came at the cost of runes and masteries being removed. Old masteries were actually stronger because they tended to be flat bonuses in % situations. Even so, you don't need to nerf damage to buff CC. Not to mention the abundance of both CC cleansing items and the prevalence of QSS, CC really needs to be stacked.

Still, this is under the assumption ALL CC gets buffed. Realistically, I think melee units should have stronger CC while ranged can retain most of what they have now barring some circumstances.

nelogis3 votes

You may not have but they were still very strong. In fact, both were removed due to the fact that they were point-and-click ranged spells that ate an inordinate amount of power budget. Rammus gets to keep his partially due to it being melee, as well as extemely telegraphed. Fiddle's is more about flavor but he's do for some more long-term work. Both of these champs are also predominantly junglers while Sion/Taric were not, meaning they have to dump points into the skill for it to be good and thus costingt hem in other departments.

Skarner isn't an issue because it's a big, impactful ult. Much like Vi, Camille, etc. Doubt he'd keep it if it was a normal skill.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, for me they were no problem and I also rarely saw a Taric or Sion (though they would be a problem in todays league yes, just like Malzh ult).

Not....really? Runes are more powerful than before but they also came at the cost of runes and masteries being removed. Old masteries were actually stronger because they tended to be flat bonuses in % situations. Even so, you don't need to nerf damage to buff CC. Not to mention the abundance of both CC cleansing items and the prevalence of QSS, CC really needs to be stacked.

Still, this is under the assumption ALL CC gets buffed. Realistically, I think melee units should have stronger CC while ranged can retain most of what they have now barring some circumstances.

Old runes on a guy let's say Olaf:

9x 0.95 AD 9x 1 Armor 9x 1.34 MR 3x 2.25 AD

Equals:

  • 15.3 AD
  • 9 Armor
  • 12 MR

New runes:

  • 12 AD (Let's say Sorcery + Inspiration)
  • 9 Armor (base stat buff)
  • 8 AD (base stat buff)
  • 10 damage on his Q

So net he lost 12 MR and gained 4.7 AD in the rune update aka, he deals more and takes more damage overall (I left masteries out in the old rune system and the whole runes in the new rune system)

New Electrolute does 500% more damage at lvl 1 and scales 166% better with AD and 300% better with AP. It has double the cooldown of TLD at lvl 1 and is activated more or less the same way.

The game has exploded when it comes to damage dealt and taken for 70% - 80% of the roster when it comes to early game.

Also what abundance of cc cleansing? There is QSS and Mikeals. Then there is the summoner spell, GP oranges and Ali ult. All of that has existed in league for a long ass time.

Melee units have generally stronger cc already no? Tanks can single handedly cc-chain you for a solid 4 seconds, Now imagine there are 2 tanks, goodbye if you wanted to move around in a teamfight as a melee non-tank. There are some mages that rival their cc, for example Lissandra but most other ranged units generally just have 1 main cc on a basic ability and if they whiff that they are screwed.

In the end IMO we still shouldn't buff any cc if the damage stays the same, if anything we need to nerf cc, especially on tanks or nerf displacements or add a counter to them like you proposed.

Kaeblen1 votes

you just said that damage creep was a good thing...

The relation between cc and damage is a solid point, but it seems more a point in favor of lengthening cc, rather than increasing damage. (This being because damage is omnipresent, whereas cc has set durations and cooldowns, and windows of effectiveness)

Rewt9 votes

I do think its a little dumb how Tenacity is basically becoming irrelevant since every new champ has a fucking knockup instead of a standard stun

Risen295 votes

The CC here is nothing compared to Dota 2. Although I can see why people complained. I've gotten use to the lighter CC of LoL, Then I play mobile legends, and I realize how annoying it is to have X's over all my abilities for the duration of the entire fight because there's so much silence or CC flying around.

Starts to get real old as a melee. Dive in. Abilities get X'd out. I'm just sitting here, waiting to be able to do something. It keeps lasting. What's even happening to my character right now? Ok, there I died. Good fight, good fight - was fun, can't wait to do it again.

Of course I'm not saying it's unbalanced or there's nothing you can do to play around it, but I can see why newer or lower skill players are turned off from this experience. It's annoying when your expectations of how the fight should go are dashed. I suspect it becomes less of a problem with more game knowledge as your expectations adjust and you change your tactics.

Problem is that the "feel good" metric is it has no objective standard and it applies to everything. Nobody feels good about losing. So if something is causing a player to lose they want it removed. It's a slippery slope that will eventually lead to you gutting the game of everything good players use to express their skill over others.

remakoro5 votes

If i enjoyed having one cheap item completely cockblocking my champion for the rest of the game. i would be playing dota. And in dota its somewhat justified cuz there you have characters that can disable you for 7s with one basic ability. Or with right build (2 items + 1 talent) and ability order can chain CC you for 56s. Solo. With hard CC. 24 second of which will hit you even if you have BKB. Everything point and click ofc. Its dota. They dont have skillshots.

CC in league aint ANYWHERE close to that.

FurriesAreHot3 votes

In DoTA everything is off the walls insane. You can silence the entire enemy team, you can blitz hook someone 30% across the map (For those reading who don’t know DOTA, look up “Pudge hook dota”).

In league we don’t have insane abilities like that, and this game is a bit more geared for casuals than the ruthless DOTA. Which is why we should pull back on displacements and knock ups and get more soft CC

remakoro2 votes

Yea cuz they have different approach to balance. Make everything absolutely broken. And mb fix some complete exploits. Or mb not.

You can silence the entire enemy team

By pressing 1 button standing afk in your own base. If things go bad your entire team can get obliterated with 5 global ults :D Thats just another dimension. No meaning to even try and compare ways they solve problems.

FurriesAreHot6 votes

Yeah DOTA is built on every character being equally overpowered.

Slice n Dice em3 votes

you can play a melee into a ranged hero and not get completely fked like in lol. That's what I call balance, if dota 2 had more fluency in gameplay, removal of turn rate, smoother movement, I would permanently switch to dota 2. Much balanced game.

Saianna1 votes

And yet................ it all works :D

FurriesAreHot1 votes

And that’s why DOTA is a great game, and I would never discourage trying it.

Saianna1 votes

I'm more of HOTS guy tbh. I find powerfull, usefull mages a fun thing :)

Teridax684 votes

I question the title of this thread, because CC does in fact get complained about a lot on Gameplay. It's not a current hot topic, because right now there are a lot of sweeping class changes that are causing a ruckus, but otherwise every single point brought up in the thread OP has already been discussed in more detail in many more threads.

The thing with "feeling good" in relation to CC is that whatever feels good for one side tends to feel bad for one side. It's generally not zero-sum, but in the case of crowd control, if applied excessively it can feel much worse to receive than it feels to inflict, and it feels like Riot in general has severely underestimated the tradeoffs of crowd control. Additionally, Riot has often wanted to have their cake and eat it too with CC abilities, with most CC effects also applying damage, itself for "feel good" reasons. This begs the question: if damage or crowd control is enough for an ability to feel satisfying, why add both at the same time? Why add one or the other to a champion not meant to have either damage or crowd control as a major strength? It is this kind of flawed methodology, coupled with CC creep over the recent years, that has caused crowd control to become far too prevalent in the game.

I also personally oppose the idea of adding a hard-counter item, or otherwise trying to fix CC creep via counter-itemization. If a system in the game is unhealthy, it needs to be addressed at the source, rather than papered over with a counter-system. This is also why I feel Tenacity, while it may need to be adjusted to suffer from fewer exceptions, is not the solution to the current state of CC. Rather, I think Riot needs to start actively removing crowd control, as well as damage in some cases, from champion kits wherever they're not needed. Crowd control is a mechanic that removes agency from an opponent, and as such it should only be given to champions who are specifically intended to output CC as one of their core contributions. Champions who "need" CC on their kits simply to feel good or keep up with the Joneses are exactly the problem that needs to be addressed, and so those champions should have the crowd control taken out of their kits first. It should be perfectly normal for a champion to have little to no innate CC in their kits, yet currently most champions have 2 difference sources of CC on average, without being considered major contributors in crowd control, and anyone with less is considered to have a lack of CC as a weakness.

DW Diana3 votes

Currently it's all about the hard CC. Yes it sucks, but then I play malz, a walking ult that 1100 gold negates, sadly there's not much you can do about it. Removing QSS would make people cry more, reducing the slows would allow more freedom for the multitude of hyper mobile champions that already exist, and displacement is the only real form of cc left.

Pandemic Punch3 votes

From my perspective, CC is lower on the tier list when compared to other things that I view as problematic. Like the ease of access to true damage in the top lane and how tanks don't really have a good lane to go to anymore. Armor should feel like a useful buy early.

Also the amount of damage in general is problematic for me. ADC's shouldn't do sustained burst damage to squishies, but should be able to kill tanks well. Assassins should be the only ones with high burst vs Squishy targets. Some tanks need some love in the jungle for their early clears. It just feels bad when Top AND Jungle are crowding out tanks with assassins and fighters. Riot should find a way for tanks to thrive in at least ONE of those roles.

Acheron163 votes

I agree, as of right now, nearly half the champions in the game have irreduceable CC.

Tenacity was never good, but the recent buffs to it (merc threads from 25% into 30%; Legend: Tenacity rune; Sterak's Gage) were made so that when you get to use it, it does feel good, since the times when tenacity is useful are becoming more and more rare. This in turn makes so that normal CC is less useful, which makes displacements more valuable, which makes Tenacity less valuable, which causes Riot to buff it, which makes normal CC less valyable, etc...

Attticus Finch3 votes

You haven't provided a reason for why the current CC dynamic is bad. You've explained what that dynamic is, but you seem to think it's self-evident that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I only see two possible explanations in your post, with 1 being that "this isn't how the game used to be" and the other that you think mobility creep is tied to CC creep.

For the first, how the game was in 2009 is irrelevent when gauging what the game is like now. The game was not better designed in the 2009, it was just a different game.

For the latter, Riot simply wanting more flashy big dick LCS plays is at least as relevant toward the advent of mobility creep. There's nothing to indicate that if displacements were lessened or went away we would see more immobile champions. The prevailing thought process at Riot seems to be that "mobility= fun to play+fun to watch+higher ceiling" which is why moving forward its dominated their design process.

Automated Riven2 votes

Bkb could only last like 1 second in league in order for it to not be crazy broken.

Also the only way they can bring back longer CC's is if damage is reduced. People die in less then a second on a regular basis.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak2 votes

I just wish they'd stop making knockups.

2nd Chance2 votes

Whenever I take a look at gameplay, I always see some threads complaining about CC/tenacity's current state though

Especially knock-ups and Lulu's Whimsy

TheSandQrator2 votes

While League definitely is on the lighter side of CC, especially since you can purchase items to both inflict and counter CC in DotA 2 (through immunities and purges), one of League's big problem with CC is that: if it's not a Slow, it's vastly more likely to be a Stun or Displacement (knockup, knockback) than anything else.

The "feel good" metric for getting hit by it is a bunch of baloney, because if you aren't slowed down, you've likely just lost total control of your character.

There is one actual Blind in the game; three sources of Nearsight; only a couple Silencing abilities; a few smatterings of Roots; a couple Disarms; literally just under a dozen forced movements (Taunt, Charm, AND Fear).

And over fifty to sixty Stuns and Knockups (each), and approximately forty abilities with Knockbacks and/or pulls. With about a hundred and ten abilities that slow in varying amounts. I did not measure the average length of each CC, the severity of them (slow, cripple), though. There are a number of displacement effects that are just there to act as a mini stun, or to push someone out of player created terrain.

While DotA has a lot of crowd control, it also has cast points, turning times, and an actual capacity to interrupt a user's ability casts. As well as a wealth of CC removal tools compared to League's (usually soft CC removal, but there's a few that remove hard CC too).

DotA 2 also has a number of abilities that pierce spell immunity so they punch right through the BKB active, but those are almost always single target spells and get blocked by Linken's, so there's a balance between picking either mitigation tool that both sides have to think of. That amount of thought/strategy is a big part of why DotA feels overwhelming to begin in sometimes, since it's not just CC. There are so many systems with a subtle but impactful tug of war between both sides which just doesn't exist in League.

I'm not advocating for bringing those in, hell no. But if you manage to get the drop on someone in DotA 2, especially from behind, you are at an insane advantage with their inability to react. (e.g. Wraith King's Blink-> Wraithfire Blast to reduce the projectile's travel time.)

Hard CC also disproportionately affects melee champions compared to ranged. It's both easier to apply it to melee people (just harder to miss since they're in your face), but also their effective threat ranges are just so much shorter on average. You can snare a Poppy who got up in your grill and she's a sad yordle who has to run at you all over again to do anything. But a Ryze in the same situation can still likely hit you with blue.

There's also the fact that being CC'd to death often is a single hard CC or two for ranged characters, but for melee folks it's often several one after the other. They often build tankier, so they'd, take longer to kill, so they can necessarily be CC'd longer. That's simply an issue of perceptions exacerbating the debate on one side, though.

Daddy Ants2 votes

The reason tenacity is garbage is due to knock ups being everywhere.

Spank the Fox2 votes

Why are you comparing displacement CC to 2009?

The roster is nearly 3.5x the size now.

Not only that but a lot of CC these days have far more restraint and counterplay. On top of that, CC is a good way to be threatening without needing insane damage. Half the displacements this community has been bitching about for the last 1/2 year or so are just for flavor (eg Camille/Kled) or completely intergral to how a champion functions (Taliyah, Aurelion, Rakan). CC isn’t being splashed around as if the champion doesn’t need it. Almost all of them are for combos or for thematic purposes (being yanked/shoved by a force)

We don’t even have champions with CC lasting longer than 2 seconds with a single button anymore.

Edit: Not only just what I said, but the number of champion allowed in a game is 10, which hard caps the amount of CC that is prevalent in a single match, so this is a bizzare talking point. CC has been watered down over the years.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Because while the game has evolved and the roster expanded, displacement hasn't evolved.

Displacement is the exact same as it was in 2009 and onward. Everything else has changed to accommodate faster gameplay and changed metrics. In addition, displacement was originally going to be looked at when Morello was head designer and that it might be affected by tenacity. That got kiboshed once he left for other projects. Displacement feels like a relic with the only balance metric being "It's k we're just putting a light displacement on this skill". More importantly, as the roster has grown, displacement grew far more than other forms of CC. Silences, blinds and more are all far rarer than displacement is, despite it being close to equal in 2009.

Also, your argument "Only 10 champs" is a bad argument. Yes, there are only 10 champs per game. However, you have 10 bans and almost 150 champions. Maybe if you could ban 10 champs in 2009 that'd take out a sizeable chunk of the roster but these days, that's nothing. It's still very easy (and often encouraged) to put together a heavy CC team depending on the meta. If it's a problem with 10 champs, it'll still be a problem with 150 champs.

robotgame2 votes

i say CC in dota isent as bad as people think it is, there are TONS of items that deal with cc and team cordination can just avoid cc or break it as some of the harder cc's are channeling such as the infamous shadow shaman shackle which isent hard to deal wiht in a team fight but more so when you are solo and their ursa just blinked on you, altho some items also deal with bkb and alot of ults just ignore it.

i don't think bkb is the way to go for lol it should have been an item on release at best as then they could balance lol with considiration form the start around such an item. I also think lol players wont appriciate such an item in lol as it would shake up the meta alot.

i do belive that tenacity is the better option as it fits better with lol and it also works well.

i'd also like to see some disarms instead of the more traditional cc, irelia is cool wiht her ult but if more disarms are to be introduced it needs to have a counter item.

im happy wiht how CC is treated in both games, i never really feel its unfair or busted.

3k hours in dota 2 and 1k hours in LoL. Yet im still bad at both. summoner 3

Saianna2 votes

LoL has the "softest" CCs from all MOBAs.

Look at DOTA2/HOTS. 2s+ stuns are norm out there.

Alevity Xiaku2 votes

To me you just sound like you're listing how CC is supposed to work. It's supposed to effect melee more than ranged. Melee is compensated in other ways such as generally being more durable with higher base stats. Do you just not want CC to exist? I feel like most champions have some form of CC so that they can fend for themselves in a situation where they are not near their team.

Also I've never really been hit by CC and thought to myself that it wasn't my fault for getting hit by it. So I don't understand what your post is trying to get at. CC is supposed to be a punishment. I never played in 2009 so really how the game was back then is irrelevant to me.

Subject 52 votes

I'm a little too busy getting triggered by ADC's being in my existence atm to complain about the source that shuts down ADC's.

Funny thing is, CC also buffs ADC's indirectly when it's an ally team stacked with CC . . .

At least it isn't an arms race with a team that looks like Rengar Xayah Akali Jayce Leona VS Khazix Katarina Yasuo Lucian Braum when the only principle in the game is KILL KILL KILL COD COD COD KDA KDA KDA PRESTIGE PRESTIGE PRESTIGE !!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjhfj8ZsXGk

At least with a team composition that looks like this Nautilus Galio JarvanIV Thresh Ashe VS Lissandra Amumu Alistar Brand Jinx there is literally some form of structure to take into consideration. ADC's need to like, you know, kite (which doesn't exist by mid game anymore, because damage is so insane that you're better off just running and not fighting back if you need to kite.) and sustain and rely on their support to beat down the front line to get to the backline. There is just so much more content to be had with a composition of CC vs CC in comparison to just who can smash their dick and face on the keyboard the hardest.

Honestly that's why I respect champions like Gangplank Zed a lot, particlarly the people who play them. It takes a lot to play a good Zed and GP . . . although Zed. You know. Like, itemization and counter items are just non-existent for other mid laners, so that's kind BS.

jocomotion2 votes

I don’t know, when I play Alistar and get that sweet WQ ok four people I feel pretty good. Same thing with the Taric stun that I lined up just right, that perfect Poppy W 3 man Darius pull into max Q heal the two man Zilean time bomb 3 man Sion Ult into full charge Q Tahm Kench triple lick (with titanic reset) stun double lick munch Vi ultimate That Jhin W snare on E trap Gnar ultimate The tip hit of Morg Q Ornn’s Ult aka. Thomas the train Max range Nautilus hook Literally every time I get that juicy thresh hook Leona... just Leona Kled Q yank into auto titanic burst Urgot ultimate pull and fear (If you can’t tell by now top and support are my favorite roles)

IRFodder1 votes

{quoted}

I don’t know, when I play Alistar and get that sweet WQ ok four people I feel pretty good. Same thing with the Taric stun that I lined up just right, that perfect Poppy W 3 man Darius pull into max Q heal the two man Zilean time bomb 3 man Sion Ult into full charge Q Tahm Kench triple lick (with titanic reset) stun double lick munch Vi ultimate That Jhin W snare on E trap Gnar ultimate The tip hit of Morg Q Ornn’s Ult aka. Thomas the train Max range Nautilus hook Literally every time I get that juicy thresh hook Leona... just Leona Kled Q yank into auto titanic burst Urgot ultimate pull and fear (If you can’t tell by now top and support are my favorite roles)

Knocking a Rengar or Akali out of the dash with Q into a R folowed by an E Q [sg-jinx] feelsgoodman. Shouldn't have underestimated my friend [sg-miss-fortune]

Sire Hippington1 votes

CC is a topic, not as hot as damage creep or some other shit, but it does get complained about.

I genrally agree with you exept for one part: 'The Myth of "Feeling Good"' This is the only thing on which i agree with riot. Knock ups/backs feel better, they have more visual oomph and dispalcements can be more interesting in the decisionmakeiing and positioning. Also, very high duration CC feels horrible and always did. I vastly prefer getting hit by a alistar Q or even blitz hook than getting hit by a morgana binding or Zoe bubble. The only issue with the knockups and displaces is that they have currently no counter. If they were affected by tenacity, this wouldn't be a huge isse, we just would need to make sure that melees have much better acces to tenacity than rangeds as they usually are punished by cc, especially knockbacks, alot harder than rangeds.

However, my main issue with CC is that we just have to much of it all around, and with way to much uptime. In a teamfigth, you probably are slowed by something 80-90% of the time as melee since about every champ has a slow at some part of their kit or items while slows have stupid uptimes. But also in terms of hard CC, current champion kits, especially tanks. Right now, every single tanks has atleast two different hard CC, one of them in the base kit with rather low CD, and another form of CC on top. Back in the days, many tanks had only hard CC on the ult and else worked of soft CC, like malph, old Seju and old Gragas. Or their hard CC was conditional or other wise gated, like old alistars massive CDs, or mumu only haveing a singletarget stun bound to a skillshot. But these days, you have shit like zac with an aoe knockup, a two target displace, both on lowish CC as base abillities, and a aoe kidnap ult...3 differnt hard CC and two of them on low cd basic abillities. Then there is mao with a big aoe knockback every 3 sec....anf ofc a point n click root and a screen wide root on top of it... The raw amount of CC is just absurd, and half of it isn'tr affected by tenacity, which paired with the overall high damage makes it insanely difficult for non-tank melees to teamfight unless they have bonklers kits like camille, who still mostly is better of splittpushing...

cocacolalips2 votes

I really wish Riot would do a pass on slows, way too many abilities are overloaded with random slows effects which serve no purpose since that's not even their primary function..

velkoz Q and R shouldn't be a slow, it's already a screen wide nuke.. zoe E shouldn't be a slow it's already a hard cc, azir Q shouldn't be a slow, it's already a nuke that can double as a dash, graves W shouldn't be a slow, it's already one of the most powerful hard cc spell, ornn R shouldn't be a slow, it's already an aoe knock up etc...

Riot seems to think slows are harmless and throws them all over the place like hot cupcakes when like you said they shut down melee champions just as hard as any hard cc would, a melee champion that cannot move does no dps, and should be treated as such, those spells should be rare and not overloaded with one bazillion effects

KuraSei1 votes

It's way too easy to achieve a five man group where every champion has some form of CC. There is zero counterplay to morg binding you, then jax stunning you, jinx putting her chompers directly beneath you, voli flips you right Into their team, ori ult. I mean this is just a random scenario of hundreds of combinations where you will be utterly helpless to the chain cc

Alevity Xiaku1 votes

The counterplay is better positioning and dodging the initial CC.

PandaNator431 votes

Not sure what problem you're trying to solve, is it this: Melee champs suffer too much from CC?

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

{quoted}

Not sure what problem you're trying to solve, is it this: Melee champs suffer too much from CC?

Well, there are numerous problems:

  • Uncounterable CC is far more numerous than CC with a counter.
  • Melee is disproportionately affected by this CC than ranged.
  • CC systems have not evolved with the game such as tenacity.
  • Other CC systems have changed without compensating for certain CC (Displacement vs. Stuns/Snares/etc.)

As I said in the OP, I don't have a clear/total fix. Rather, it's something I think Riot needs to iterate on ala the ADC changes.

PandaNator431 votes

As I said in the OP, I don't have a clear/total fix

that's fine, we're just talking :)

I'm not sure I'm following, I'll ask it a couple different ways: Why are any of those a "problem?" Why do CC systems need to evolve? If those are the problems, what is the result of those problems?

Melee is disproportionately affected by this CC than ranged

This one I understand a little more, but not necessarily as a problem, I'd maybe call it good design? Silences are stronger against casters; Blind/Disarm is stronger against auto-attackers.

What are you really trying to fix?

The impression I get is that you would like more skill expression in CC systems and anti-CC systems.

What do you think of having more counters (anti-CC abilities) and/or responses(anti-CC items) to CC?

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Itemizing this:

Why are any of those a "problem?"

CC is a leading contribution to the heavy disparity between ranged and melee. It also leads to other problems such as the #1 form of CC being uncounterable and your best course of action when it happens is to either A.) Buy a banshee's veil to block that one spell or B.) Sit there and take it. It's a personal opinion but having something with zero ability to play around it in some cases just feels awful, especially when it's so much stronger than others.

Why do CC systems need to evolve?

It's probably the most major system that Riot never sat down and took a long look at it. It's a system that has been stashed away in favor of more displacements. Displacements are a bandage on a gushing wound, only addressing that there is a problem rather than taking steps to fix it.

If those are the problems, what is the result of those problems?

Melee is heavily weakened due to CC. The favorite form of CC heavily favors ranged characters, which leads to further power gaps between the two that continue to be a problem in league. Plus the homogenization of CC types means that there is less room for balanced designs because displacements are the go-to.

This one I understand a little more, but not necessarily as a problem, I'd maybe call it good design? Silences are stronger against casters; Blind/Disarm is stronger against auto-attackers.

What are you really trying to fix?

The impression I get is that you would like more skill expression in CC systems and anti-CC systems.

What do you think of having more counters (anti-CC abilities) and/or responses(anti-CC items) to CC?

The problem here is that I agree with you but Riot doesn't. So instead silences/blinds have been steadily removed. I think Irelia's rework is the first disarm/counter auto-attack since like 2010 or so? Riot has removed specialization in favor of homogenization. And yes, displacements will always hurt melee more than ranged, but that doesn't excuse it being the most common form of CC after slows. Displacements being too common hurts melee a lot, which leads to the disparity these days.

I'd be fine with more skill expression in CC systems or options. Tools to counter displacements, tools to fight around CC-stacking, options you can buy or put runes into so that you're not at a disadvantage just because the enemy instalocked Janna. There should be ways to soften weaknesses or have windows to negate it. Right now there aren't any.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

It doesn’t matter what cc, it’s a death sentence anyway and you’ll get instakilled

Velasan1 votes

Old Zephyr had tenacity on it. I think elixir of iron still does.

It is pretty crazy though that if you went resolve/precision you could have more tenacity than you can shake a stick at, make slows pointless, but you would still get CC locked.

Meep Man1 votes

If a BKB equivalent is added, suddenly Master Yi will be broken unless they make the item itself just awful.

The thing about Yi and champions like him is that they can always just be stunned or displaced to disrupt their extremely difficult to react to play style of constant mobility and invincibility frames. If they can just ignore it with a button press, they become stupid. Dota was balanced with BKB in it from the start almost. League was balanced with BKB not being in it from the start.

JRobin311 votes

I think:

Displacement CC is okay to have in the game. Not a problem. But it also seems to be that tenacity (or something similar) ought to apply to forced movement. Itemization against it should be a thing.

I don't see a problem with RIOT figuring out 'better' quantities of CC. I'm not saying they are doing it right or wrong. But the question of how long CC should last is a subject of debate and research and RIOT should (and I'll also give them the benefit of the doubt here and say they most likely have already) examine that question carefully and even regularly.

Feeling good is relevant, but the thing is you can't just look at it from the perspective of players whose champions get CCed. You have to look at it from the perspective of players whose champions deliver CC. So calls from the community to nerf CC are sometimes appropriate and sometimes silly. Silence removal is the big offender here. Players got really upset about their champions being silenced and RIOT started actually removing silences from champions. And I almost couldn't believe that any legitimate designer would let silences get removed from champions like that - not nerfed, removed. It was sad because it wasn't like there weren't plenty of other CC worse than silence in the game. The 'feel good' approach should never be one-sided like that.

Slows are something that need to be examined just like any CC needs to be examined. Maybe it's too much, maybe not enough. To this day, I'm not sure RIOT has figured out slows. Maybe that sounds disparaging, but I don't think it's an easy question to answer.

Empowering non-displacement CC is whatever - maybe some should be more empowered and maybe others need a nerf bat. Chain CC tenacity doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I think champions ought to have something that works on all CC, not just chain CC. A legitimate counter to displacement CC is something the game lacks and probably needs. It's about having access to potential tools against your opponents if you are willing to step outside of your normal build path - sacrifice some damage potential or tankiness or whatever because you have the brains to think about your opponents and respond to their play. But the champion to keep an eye on is Blitzcrank, who relies on getting his opponent all the way displaced so he can follow up with a knock up. If enemies can somehow resist that, then suddenly there is a huge difference in how that scenario plays out and so any change needs to be carefully examined.

BKB sounds bad, but item 3102 gives a spell shield with a 40 second cool down. That straight up denies a displacement attack. So it's not like there aren't tools in the game.

To sum up: I think a lot of these questions have been considered by RIOT and that CC in general always needs reconsideration as the game constantly changes and RIOT looks for ways to 'improve' the game. If the complaints about CC don't seem as prevalent, than that may be a very good sign that things are relatively good as far as CC goes. It could also mean that CC is too weak in the game right now and that's why no one complains about it... Or it could just mean that other parts of the game are more troublesome right now and players don't have time to complain about CC on top of everything else they are complaining about. ADCs have been getting a lot of grief recently.

Blåbæret1 votes

There have been plenty of complaints about CC. The problem is that CC doesn't matter when you get deleted by an ADC right-clicking you for 1k per auto.

Beerstein1 votes

I remember when we all complained about the CC, now...wait did we stop? I don't think we stopped tbh...Maybe less frequent now. People are used to it even if they don't like it. Plus it's more of a necessity to counter ADCs that crit for 2,000.

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