The term "late game monster" it's just an excuse for certain champions

ContDeCaterinca1·Feb 10, 2019·3 votes·930 views

I am talking about in particular. But I can extend it to other champions like , , .

When you think of the majority of ADCs, if they feed early, they instantly become useless:

0/5 Caitlyn, Tristana, Jinx, Twitch, whatever...

They need the game to go 40+ mins for them to finally get items and become relevant.

But there you go with Kaisa and Vayne, supposedly late game monsters, reaching "late game" at 2 items, when everything near them instantly melts.

In fact, Vayne could be on 2 items when everyone is 4, as long as she can kite with and stacked , she can 1 vs 1 lots of melees: tanks, fighters, anything but assassins.

It's blatant favoritism when Vayne can come from behind much easier than any of her peers(who also happen to be late game monsters) and that's 100% due to her kit.

4 Comments

OtterlyLostFeb 10, 20196 votes

Honestly, Vayne is problematic and its purely because her kit is pretty toxic. She's a late game champion but her level 6 bot lane is probably one of, if not the strongest in the game. Like, I have a really hard time thinking of any ADCs that get as big a boon from their level 6 as Vayne does. Maybe Tristana because that's the point at which she can start assassinating her laner solo but even then, Vayne's does grossly out shine her's because Vayne, if she's even moderately good, completely destroys even Tristana at level 6. And this is while scaling better than Tristana does; stealth, massive AD steroids, low CD mobility, true % health damage, decent team fight, amazing 1v1, relatively low CD knock back and situational stun. A really good Vayne undeniably out scales every ADC in the game. So why does she also get an amazing mid game power spike with her ultimate?

It honestly largely comes down to her tumble gives her way too much damage(the steroid on it is absurd and provides her with way too much burst for an ADC that's intended for tank shredding; Tristana gets a lot of flack for being bursty but that's the point of her and she trades it off by not being the best until really late at dealing with tanks. Not Vayne though. Vayne gets to do both) and the fact that when they reworked stealth, they removed a huge part of the counterplay to Vayne for other ADCs. Before, when Vayne hit level 6, you could reasonably have you or your support toss down a control ward and at the very least, you could retaliate her damage. Now you're just forced to flail helplessly around hoping for a chance to return an AA or you have to burn a lot to try and get away from her and wait out the ult. Which is hard because her tumble CD is stupid low and her passive gives her bonus movespeed toward enemy champions, which by the way, doesn't make sense to me. :/ Other short range ADCs specifically have the problem of chasing as one of their weaknesses; I'm looking at an un ulting Twitch, at Xayah, at Sivir. At least two of those, if they want to chase, have to actually hit their opponent for their MS. Not Vayne, she just passively gets it for free.

She really needs to be reworked into something that's less overloaded and toxic for the game. Something needs to be taken away; the low CD tumble, the AD steroid it gives, the stealth duration, the control ward immunity her stealth has, the true damage... Riot needs to take a step back and look at Vayne and decide wtf is she supposed to be? If its a tank and bruiser shredder, take away her ad steroids, put more power into her true damage and give her a slightly longer range(though maybe not since she already has more range than several other marksmen; level 1 Tristana, minigun Jinx, Kai'sa, Kalista, Xayah, Sivir, Lucian, just to name a few) so that her teamfight is better. If you want her to be a duelist though, the true damage needs to go and something needs to be worked out so that she has some form of counter play for everyone else around her. She does not need to be both the best tank shredder and the best duelist and the best late game ADC. Something needs to give.

ContDeCaterinca1Feb 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, Vayne is problematic and its purely because her kit is pretty toxic. She's a late game champion but her level 6 bot lane is probably one of, if not the strongest in the game. Like, I have a really hard time thinking of any ADCs that get as big a boon from their level 6 as Vayne does. Maybe Tristana because that's the point at which she can start assassinating her laner solo but even then, Vayne's does grossly out shine her's because Vayne, if she's even moderately good, completely destroys even Tristana at level 6. And this is while scaling better than Tristana does; stealth, massive AD steroids, low CD mobility, true % health damage, decent team fight, amazing 1v1, relatively low CD knock back and situational stun. A really good Vayne undeniably out scales every ADC in the game. So why does she also get an amazing mid game power spike with her ultimate?

It honestly largely comes down to her tumble gives her way too much damage(the steroid on it is absurd and provides her with way too much burst for an ADC that's intended for tank shredding; Tristana gets a lot of flack for being bursty but that's the point of her and she trades it off by not being the best until really late at dealing with tanks. Not Vayne though. Vayne gets to do both) and the fact that when they reworked stealth, they removed a huge part of the counterplay to Vayne for other ADCs. Before, when Vayne hit level 6, you could reasonably have you or your support toss down a control ward and at the very least, you could retaliate her damage. Now you're just forced to flail helplessly around hoping for a chance to return an AA or you have to burn a lot to try and get away from her and wait out the ult. Which is hard because her tumble CD is stupid low and her passive gives her bonus movespeed toward enemy champions, which by the way, doesn't make sense to me. :/ Other short range ADCs specifically have the problem of chasing as one of their weaknesses; I'm looking at an un ulting Twitch, at Xayah, at Sivir. At least two of those, if they want to chase, have to actually hit their opponent for their MS. Not Vayne, she just passively gets it for free.

She really needs to be reworked into something that's less overloaded and toxic for the game. Something needs to be taken away; the low CD tumble, the AD steroid it gives, the stealth duration, the control ward immunity her stealth has, the true damage... Riot needs to take a step back and look at Vayne and decide wtf is she supposed to be? If its a tank and bruiser shredder, take away her ad steroids, put more power into her true damage and give her a slightly longer range(though maybe not since she already has more range than several other marksmen; level 1 Tristana, minigun Jinx, Kai'sa, Kalista, Xayah, Sivir, Lucian, just to name a few) so that her teamfight is better. If you want her to be a duelist though, the true damage needs to go and something needs to be worked out so that she has some form of counter play for everyone else around her. She does not need to be both the best tank shredder and the best duelist and the best late game ADC. Something needs to give.

The last time they touched Vayne before her tumble buff, the true damage on W increased from 12% to 14%. That's yet another buff requiring less autos for the true damage alone to kill you.

IMO Vayne should be both a duelist and a tank shredder, BUT she shouldn't unlock the duelist potential until late game, when she has both the on hit and the crit items setup completed ( item 3046 item 3031 maybe a 3rd crit item).

Frosted TipsFeb 10, 20193 votes

My problem with the Vayne issue is that Phantom Hots is the actual issue, but Riot for some reason can't comprehend that and will probably nerf Vayne because of them and then remove Phontom Hits like they should have years ago and then leave Vayne in an abysmal spot.