As a D3 Vinegar main, I have a proposal

Annie Bot Sucks·Aug 14, 2015·119 votes·19,231 views

Get rid of the enemy AP scaling on his ult, and give Vinegar 1.5 AP ratio on it for compensation. It may be too much, try 1.4, but you get the point. The ultimate, as of now, does little but limit Vinegar's targeting choice. Giving his ult a flat Ap ratio against all champions will aid him in dealing with AD assassins mid, which are awful enough for him as is. Ever tried dealing with Talon or Zed as Vinegar? He has zero reliability against any of them, and the one skill that can hit them for sure will do jack squat because they have no AP. By the same token, enemy AP mids won't feel like crap whenever they buy large amounts of AP. Anti-mage was never Vinegar's true identity, it was always burst mage, and that means he bursts whoever he pleases.

205 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 15, 201576 votes

I've seen this request (or ones pretty similar to it) a few times in the last week now. Just to get another read...

Anti-mage was never Vinegar's true identity, it was always burst mage, and that means he bursts whoever he pleases.

How does everyone feel about the above statement?

laststanding6Aug 15, 201516 votes

It is in my humble opinion, 100% true. You guys absolutely gutted veigar when you first did the rework without buffing anything in return and made his ult have worse ap scaling. On top of that, removing dfg pretty much removed veigar's identity of being the super scary mage that can obliterate squishies and made him very much useless. Making the delay shorter did help a bit but he still suffers immensely from having a "burst"ult that doesn't burst anyone but the occasional mage anymore. One thing you could do if you don't want to buff his ult is to buff his w a bit in speed.

CupcakeTrapAug 15, 20158 votes

{quoted}

It is in my humble opinion, 100% true. You guys absolutely gutted veigar when you first did the rework without buffing anything in return and made his ult have worse ap scaling. On top of that, removing dfg pretty much removed veigar's identity of being the super scary mage that can obliterate squishies and made him very much useless. Making the delay shorter did help a bit but he still suffers immensely from having a "burst"ult that doesn't burst anyone but the occasional mage anymore. One thing you could do if you don't want to buff his ult is to buff his w a bit in speed.

The problem I see is that his ult is now a very "flat" ability. If they amp it up, he might be strong, but not in an interesting way. With old Veigar, there were some strategic decision-points on the way to bursting someone:

Positioning: The dance of "when can I move forward to throw my stun without getting killed by their front line?" (I suppose this is still somewhat relevant.)
Damage splitting: Whether to stack DFG and ult for a sure kill, or go double-or-nothing and split DFG and ult in the hopes of killing two squishies. (DFG isn't around anymore, so this doesn't come up.)
Stun usage: Whether to use stun to lock the enemy mage down, probably with the outer edge, and make sure everything hits, or to save it for when the teamfight really begins, stunning multiple lower-value targets to help your team. (His stun is now a "throw somewhere and hope somebody walks into it accidentally" ability, rather than an ability that can be landed or missed.)

So I'm a little wary of just giving his ult more power without fixing these deeper problems. (That said, I was pretty annoyed that these nerfs were announced as "compensation buffs" for losing DFG; a real form of compensation for losing DFG would be to amp up ult damage.)

CupcakeTrapAug 15, 201516 votes

{quoted}

I've seen this request (or ones pretty similar to it) a few times in the last week now. Just to get another read...

How does everyone feel about the above statement?

If I had to choose one, I'd say "burst mage" over "mage burster". His post-DFG "compensation buffs" turned him into much more of a poke mage than a burst mage, and I think it would be good to consider some further changes that might make him feel bursty again. (Mostly, I think his ragecage needs to do something more interesting. I think Riot's underestimating how fundamentally the changes broke his kit and reduced his strategic decision potential, but that's a topic for another thread.) I mean, sure, he's still got a "bursty" R, but it's a very uninteresting burst ability: push button, delete enemy. That's how non-Veigar players might have parodied old Veigar, but it differed sharply from actual old Veigar. With new Veigar, there's no double-or-nothing question of whether or not to split ult and DFG (because DFG is gone), or whether to use the stun to pin down an enemy squishy or use it for the team (because the new stun is more "toss it on the ground and hope somebody accidentally walks into it").

Really, though, I think he's both. I think he should retain his "anti-mage" tone with his ult. At least historically, a big part of Veigar's very flavorful theme was that he was an extremely weak laner who got kicked around all lanephase, then took his vengeance later on. It was very satisfying, and thematically appropriate, for Veigar to get an extra power surge when targeting the enemy mid that terrorized him for the early part of the game. It also synergized nicely with the itemization situation.

For example, a somewhat common pattern was "enemy mage beats the hell out of Veigar early on, enemy mage gets really cocky and builds pure glass cannon with visions of pentakills dancing in their head, Veigar's team rages at Veigar for feeding, and then, suddenly, BLAM! Veigar incinerates the enemy mage with one shot, quite literally killing them with the AP items they bought with proceeds from tormenting Veigar in lane. BAHAHAHAHA! The tables have turned, and Veigar shows NO MERCY!" It really brought a psychological, even lore-informed element to his playstyle. You could just imagine Veigar's rage amping up the spell. It also presented a real choice for the enemy mid: double-down on their early success and build glass cannon, with the understanding that they had better be careful about their positioning, or build more defensively, resisting the temptation to buy four deathcaps and try to carry the game single-handed. In effect, it asked the enemy mid, in Veigar's screechy yordle-voice: "Do you feel lucky? Well, do you?" Perhaps more pointedly, it asks: "Do you think you beat me up in lane because you're just better than me? Then build glass cannon and rely on your superior skill to avoid an EWQR. Not sure about that? Then take the safe road and build some defense."

To be honest, new Veigar feels like "pretty okay mage who passively farms all lanephase from relative safety, then in the midgame does some moderate poke damage to the enemy team and maybe bursts someone if they're low". I'm pretty :\ about that.

WhiskerWowAug 15, 201513 votes

I don't think it should be anti-mage, but more anti-power. I mean, an enemy laner that is AD can bully you like an AP champion, but he gets away with it. The only problem is trying to figure out how to make his ult more anti-power. This is starting to really sound like the Garen Ult changes though... :/

CupcakeTrapAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it should be anti-mage, but more anti-opponent. I mean, an enemy laner that is AD can bully you like an AP champion, but he gets away with it. The only problem is trying to figure out how to make his ult more anti-opponent. This is starting to really sound like the Garen Ult changes though... :/

Yes, indeed. I do think enemy AP scaling works reasonably well for the most part, even after (to borrow Renekton Bot's phrasing) Riot decided that "AD" meant both "Attack Damage" and "sometimes also Ability Damage" and created the AD caster mid. Sure, they could make some elaborate "villain" stack system, but I think the enemy AP scaling mechanic is better, even if it gets weird sometimes when you go up against an AD mid.

DrCyanideAug 15, 20157 votes

For example, a somewhat common pattern was "enemy mage beats the hell out of Veigar early on, enemy mage gets really cocky and builds pure glass cannon with visions of pentakills dancing in their head, Veigar's team rages at Veigar for feeding, and then, suddenly, BLAM! Veigar incinerates the enemy mage with one shot, quite literally killing them with the AP items they bought with proceeds from tormenting Veigar in lane. BAHAHAHAHA! The tables have turned, and Veigar shows NO MERCY!"

Honestly, this one scenario is why I'm on the fence with the proposed change. I don't care about the ult scaling off the enemy's AP unless they're significantly ahead of me. If an enemy's contributing 1/2 - 2/3 of my Ultimates damage output, then I'm really behind, but the Ultimate serves as a come back mechanic to level the playing field once again. I'm worried with the enemy AP scaling removed the come-back mechanic will completely vanish, leaving Veigar far more feast or famine.

Kitsuki05Aug 15, 20152 votes

I'm pretty much neutral, Veigar still explodes people with or without the enemy AP ratio bonus damage, but it doesn't make him auto win against mages either if he's bad at being Veigar. Honestly, it's the fact that he has an infinitely increasing amount of AP and his ult is a 100% AP ratio that makes it what it is. I don't really see a need to change anything, Veigar is in a good spot.

Curling VeigarAug 15, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty much neutral, Veigar still explodes people with or without the enemy AP ratio bonus damage, but it doesn't make him auto win against mages either if he's bad at being Veigar. Honestly, it's the fact that he has an AP farming booster and his ult is a 200% AP ratio that makes it what it is. I don't really see a need to change anything, Veigar is in a good spot.

how is his ult a 200% ratio?

if you're talking about with his enemy AP ratio then it'd be 180%. But the issue is that no one's going to build full AP versus Veigar so most of his ult damage comes from his own ratio.

I'd be up for implementing this change but the mana cost should probably be increased a little bit

WhiskerWowAug 15, 20154 votes

I never really felt or liked the anti-mage identity. I think a champion's identities should be kept distinct.

VesarixxAug 15, 201553 votes

His ult is the only thing really making him anti mage, there are other champions who do a better job at being anti mage, Chogath Galio Kassadin Morgana Ryze just off the top of my head. His identity as a burst mage however, is far more ingrained into his entire kit, and if he's going to burst 1 person and then have most of his burst on cool down for the rest of the team fight then limiting him to bursting the AP carry hurts his useability quite a bit.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 15, 201535 votes

Yeah, this seems to be the consensus of most everyone else that has responded as well.

Curling VeigarAug 15, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, this seems to be the consensus of most everyone else that has responded as well.

It goes with his character as well. In his lore, he wants everyone to fear him, not just a select few.

CupcakeTrapAug 15, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3d1Ez4lE,comment-id=0012000d00000002,timestamp=2015-08-15T06:54:57.686+0000)

It goes with his character as well. In his lore, he wants everyone to fear him, not just a select few.

No. No. AARRGGGHHHH.

Sorry, I should phrase this more constructively, but I am very tired and this has not been an enjoyable day for me.

If you want to talk about lore, then the parallels are pretty obvious: his lane opponent, who beats him up during his weak early game, is a stand in for the Noxian jailers who tormented him in his backstory. Sure, he has fun blowing up just about anyone, but with the enemy mid, it's personal. That's the lore connection.

Perhaps we just have very different takes on Veigar. For example, you seem to rather like the new Veigar, whereas playing new Veigar is one of the most painful experiences in all of League of Legends for me. But I really have a hard time understanding your comment here.

This is to say nothing of how much more interesting an enemy-AP-scaling ability is than a generic "does more damage" ability. They've already taken away so much of his distinctiveness.

Curling VeigarAug 15, 20159 votes

{quoted}

No. No. AARRGGGHHHH.

Sorry, I should phrase this more constructively, but I am very tired and this has not been an enjoyable day for me.

If you want to talk about lore, then the parallels are pretty obvious: his lane opponent, who beats him up during his weak early game, is a stand in for the Noxian jailers who tormented him in his backstory. Sure, he has fun blowing up just about anyone, but with the enemy mid, it's personal. That's the lore connection.

Perhaps we just have very different takes on Veigar. For example, you seem to rather like the new Veigar, whereas playing new Veigar is one of the most painful experiences in all of League of Legends for me.

Playing him feels like a chore honestly, so I'm kind of like ":|" when I play him,

And the issue with the whole "revenge" fantasy is that once an enemy AP champion gets a lead on me, they're going to buy an abyssal/mercs early on to negate my burst. While after void staff I may be able to 100-0 them, if they're any bit competent they can just dodge my stun and murder me. Later on, they purchase banshees, so with banshees + abyssal, there's very little chance you're going to get your tiny hands on them. Don't even get me started on AD mids buying hexdrinker.

Also, picture yourself in this situation. You're pretty fed, and the enemy AP has about ~100 AP so ulting them is pretty meh. Pretend they have an ad champ with mobility that is fed. (take vayne, or riven). Then they buy QSS/banshees. Suddenly, you can't do shit to them because of the mobility. Catch them in your stun? they use qss or banshees is popped, where now your stun is on cooldown from trying to catch them and they just dash onto you and instantly kill you while taking only ~500 damage from your ult. Late game. Also if you use any of your damage spells to pop a banshees veil, they aren't going to die to your burst because you used a damage spell to pop it. If it's QSS, then you can't q+r them.

He's a painful champ to play.

BottleCapsterAug 15, 20157 votes

Who ever said we're talking about Veigar? This post is about Balancing Vinegar. The riot response only furthers fan speculations that Vinegar's long lost sister Vinegrette will be making an appearance to the league as the next champion!

4th3t0sAug 15, 20155 votes

To be fair, a lot of his "anti-mage" identity died when he lost his old ap-leeching passive years ago. His ult is really the only part that still remains; yet he's always identified as a single-target instagib burst mage, DFG notwithstanding. In light of Garen's rework on his w (pre-VU), would the current meta have room for something similar to his old passive, if you guys feel he identifies better as an antimage?

Just my 2c

TrídentAug 15, 20153 votes

I agree with the statement, and thanks for being so friendly and active on the boards Rep :D

A Tall JokeAug 15, 20158 votes

Burst mage > Anti Mage every time. Nothing in his lore or playstyle really indicated anti-mage. Just this weird tacked on special effect on his ult that I don't really see a good reason for. Nice fallback mechanism, tbh. But not much else.

I have several qualms with the anti mage idea.

It frontloads too much decision on Champ Select (See Veigar>pick AD champ)
Consumes power budget. I love playing Veigar but all his abilities feel just a little sub-par just to feed this and his E. Plus his nothing-passive
Unnecessarily limits his targeting
Here's my BIGGEST one: It punishes the enemy for doing what they're supposed to! I HATE this part of Veigar-- even as the Veigar player. I don't think we should punish players for making the right decision. If anything should discourage my enemies from building glass cannon, it's the wrath I will incur. Not fear of my ult's special effect. If someone wants to build DCap, it shouldn't be a death sentence for them... It should be a death sentence for me. And yet...

DrCyanideAug 15, 20158 votes

I feel like Yasuo's more of an Anti-Mage between his shield, dash, and wind wall than Veigar. (Seriously, Wind Wall is one of the best Anti-Mage tools in the game.)

Veigar's Ultimate is one of two things in regards to AP Opponents:

Win Lane Harder: You let me passively farm forever, then my jungler came and we killed you a few times. You're getting your big AP items, but I'm getting more use out of them sending you back to the fountain faster. I make you scared to come close to a team fight.
Come Back Mechanic: You beat me to a bloody pulp in laning phase. I've got no farm, no kills, and I'm feeding bad. You're spiraling out of control, confidently charging into team fights, but in the nanosecond before you can 100-0 me, I fire my ult at you and we both die. My team now has a chance, and I start to slowly make up my lost ground.

The change would strengthen the Win Lane Harder situation, while completely removing the Come Back Mechanic situation. I'm not sure if that's a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing to consider.

Sadistic VeigarAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I feel like Yasuo's more of an Anti-Mage between his shield, dash, and wind wall than Veigar. (Seriously, Wind Wall is one of the best Anti-Mage tools in the game.)

Veigar's Ultimate is one of two things in regards to AP Opponents:

Win Lane Harder: You let me passively farm forever, then my jungler came and we killed you a few times. You're getting your big AP items, but I'm getting more use out of them sending you back to the fountain faster. I make you scared to come close to a team fight.

Come Back Mechanic: You beat me to a bloody pulp in laning phase. I've got no farm, no kills, and I'm feeding bad. You're spiraling out of control, confidently charging into team fights, but in the nanosecond before you can 100-0 me, I fire my ult at you and we both die. My team now has a chance, and I start to slowly make up my lost ground.

The change would strengthen the Win Lane Harder situation, while completely removing the Come Back Mechanic situation. I'm not sure if that's a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing to consider.

Wouldn't that be better anyways? You're not playing a champion to lose your lane and then come back because of how an ability works, you play to get fed, carry, and win. At least it'd feel more fair for him to be doing more damage when ahead then getting oneshot by an 0/7/0 veigar just because you have a larger amount of AP.

DrCyanideAug 15, 20152 votes

I don't know if it would be better for the game overall, bad, or just neutral.

All I know is that it would feel worse as a Veigar player who's behind, and feel worse for Veigar's foes when he's ahead. "Feast or Famine" is generally viewed as something people don't want more of in the game.

Sadistic VeigarAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't know if it would be better for the game overall, bad, or just neutral.

All I know is that it would feel worse as a Veigar player who's behind, and feel worse for Veigar's foes when he's ahead. "Feast or Famine" is generally viewed as something people don't want more of in the game.

I know. But wouldn't any champion feel bad when they're behind?

If his ult was changed to 500 + 150% AP with no enemy AP ratio then He'd still have a decent chance of coming back because of his E being strong, but the old ultimate would be 500 + 100% AP + 80% AP (from a mage). I remember I did pretty badly versus an ahri in lane, farmed a tiny bit, then just pressed R when she dashed to me and she died instantly like that. How would someone feel if they get super ahead but end up getting oneshot by someone who's 0/7, as I previously stated?

CastaneanAug 15, 20153 votes

I'm going to have to say.... I agree with the statement. It also fits better into Veigar's lore. He's gonna make EVERYONE bow before him, not just other spellcasters. (In fact; Veigar doesn't even have specific hatred for anything or anyone) Veigar isn't really all that reliable against better players either, despite his strongest ability being point-and-click. Even more so if you pick first in draft pick. In addition, since Veigar's stun isn't reliable and since Veigar's W is probably the least reliable skill in the game as a result, having his ult only work optimally on certain kinds of champions feels really... Limiting. It feels like a waste to ult an Ashe or a Zed, but you don't usually have a choice when the enemy APC has less than 200 AP and more MR than their tank. (Obvious exaggaration here, but you get my point. I'm also not actually at the point where people realize veigar will wreck them if they don't build MR yet, but as a Veigar main, I dread when I will have to cross that border.)

Do note; that is not to say it doesn't feel utterly AWESOME to nearly literally 1-shot a full-AP Nidalee, whom proceeds to All-Chat about how Veigar's damage is "Broken." I still find that absolutely hilarious, and few things feel as satisfying as watching 98% of an enemy's health dissipating in a single, undodgable spell (Which, mind you, is only truly a realistic possibility if the enemy buys all the big AP items and no MR or health.)

TL; DR: I wouldn't mind a change to Veigar's ult, swapping out the enemy AP scaling for more reliable, universal power. And I also consider Veigar to be THE Burst Mage, not the Anti-Mage. He really just feels like he's supposed to be able to just insta-burst nearly anyone.

(Also, sorry about the little rant in the first paragraph. It's just a trace amount of salt leftover from Veigar's... Compensation buffs.)

CrettAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I've seen this request (or ones pretty similar to it) a few times in the last week now. Just to get another read...

How does everyone feel about the above statement?

I very much feel like everyone should fear Veigar equally.

ComannderShepardAug 15, 20152 votes

I agree with it. I've played against many ad assassins mid as veigar and while the matchup is definitely harder I don't feel useless against them. His combo still does what it's supposed to - burst them - the burst just isn't as hard as it would be against another ap mid.

vC48YNoGbJAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I've seen this request (or ones pretty similar to it) a few times in the last week now. Just to get another read...

How does everyone feel about the above statement?

Not would that allow Veigar more options as the game progresses, it wouldn't have the cheap punishing factor of scaling harder when the other team's AP champion is doing well. Scaling off enemy's offensive stats is an atrocious design.

The SoulforgedAug 15, 20153 votes

Veigar is the ap stacking burst mage, Kassadin is the anti-mage. I agree fully.

RrettAug 15, 20152 votes

Actually, I'd probably say I was the first to mention it, though not on the forums.

I was talking to Sadistic veigar about it, and we both agree on it.

As for my veigar background, I went from p5-d5 with a 70% winrate when I played veigar only.

I don't play him anymore since the compensation gut, but when I did I never factored in any of enemy ap. It was actually at a point when I played more against ad mids than ap mids, and his ult still worked fine against them.

Basically what I'm saying is that you never actually factored in enemy AP when using his ult anyways.

I also want to re-iterate, when i still played veigar precompensation, as far as ability with veigar went, there were a very limited pool of people better than me. I mean, I was on par with faker as far as playing veigar went. Obv he has better game knowledge and decision making but you get the point.

So yes, this is actually a perfect change to him and one that probably should have been done ages ago.

Also just out of curiosity when are you guys planning on reworking veigar properly? You guys kind of ruined the best veigar play style(roam and extreme aggression) and forced him into the crappy farm one only the bad veigar players used at the time.

CrettAug 15, 20152 votes

your name...

Binxy PrimeAug 15, 20153 votes

Hey I want to just let you know I really appreciate you making posts like these, It lets us know that you actually read some of what we post and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I really miss when Riot chimed in more.

As for your question, I never really understood why his ult would do extra damage vs ap mages anyways. I don't think its something that defines him. I would love to see some way to use w or e more reliably without team mate CC. There are a lot of cool ideas. Make his stun cast faster based on Q stacks, have Q stun when they are inside the horizon, make the cast time of his e instant so it stuns .25 seconds sooner. Improve the area of his W a little so it can be landed if an enemy is slowed by an ally not only if they are stunned.

I think there are a lot of small changes that would help veigar out a lot in his worse match ups without making him broken. I would like to see some new super neat space torture spells invented for a rework, the only spell I'm really attached to right now is his Q. Its so responsive and fast and I like the stacking AP mechanic and the width, the feel of that spell is just perfect.

BeoridasAug 15, 20152 votes

Veigar's R is very unique in its application. all anti mages have burst to their kit. besides but him being stronger the stronger his mage target is is awesome. I disagree with the removal of that. Galio can ult anyone or Q-E anyone he wants. Kassadin can assassinate or target someone else than a mage. that doesnt mean they should lose all their anti mage abilities . Cho,ryze morg arent anti mages.

Trundle BundleAug 15, 20152 votes

Veigar's singular antimage quality has never been a fantasy fulfillment like with the others. It's been more of a tacked on limitation to make him prioritize certain champions at specific points of the game. The biggest reservation I have about his ult changing to be flat power is that it becomes a bit plain and it becomes quite a bit of raw power. Honestly though, the current enemy AP tie just doesn't fit a theme enough to warrant it.

BhargoAug 15, 20152 votes

For me, he was never "anti-mage", more "apex-mage", the burstiest of the bursters. But he only peaked among a tiny group. Other burst mages felt more rewarding because you don't have to hope the enemy foolishly stacks AP so you can kill him, and other characters perform anti-mage roles far better while also being competent in other areas, whereas Vivi gives us one strong burst against an enemy mage and an awkward stun ring.

I'd be much happier with him if instead of a niche role that nobody is stupid enough to line themselves up against, he had a viable, well defined role as a mage that got stronger by feeding off kills.

JMoormannAug 15, 20152 votes

Agree. Because of his squishyness, and few defensive options (only his E with a quite long CD), he is useless in teamfights against long ranged APCs simply because he can impossibly reach them. Unless the opponent has another AP, the opponent AP scaling is basically wasted.

RamuhdoAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted} How does everyone feel about the above statement?

Veigar is advertised as an anti-mage but has very few tools that specifically work well against mages. He has no shields against AP damage, no silence, nothing that interrupts channels (outside of stun, but that stops everything), and the only thing he has that's specifically "anti-mage" is his ult having 80% enemy AP scalings. Which honestly feels a bit unfair; I get punishing enemies for the things they do, but punishing AP champs for building AP? That seems overly harsh.

Veigar's fantasy is destroying the opposition, regardless of who they are. He's a burst mage right now. Maybe at some point in the past he was an anti-mage, but now he is decidedly not.

CrazedPorcupineAug 15, 20152 votes

As a large Veigar player, I'd say it's a combination of both. His unique Anti AP made him feel sooo rewarding to pick against AP champions, but is also problematic since it takes away from his abilities because once he get's ahead, the enemy AP champions aren't allowed to play because he can just press R on them and delete them instantly.

If it meant large AP increases across the rest of his kit, I'd be completely okay with Veigar being Burst Mage that is incredibly strong against AP champions being changed to Burst mage that obliterates anyone who stands in his way (albeit slightly less effectively)

As such, please, at least test the changes to Veigar in the PBE for patch 5.17 or 5.18 and see if it makes veigar healthier.

injournAug 15, 201524 votes

vinegar is op on salad team comps

Father CthulhuAug 15, 201519 votes

I too main Vinegar. He really brings out the flavor of the game, spicing up the teamfights and making his enemies really salty. :^)

Diananmen SquareAug 15, 201518 votes

There is an anti-mage already. That gets beaten by mages themselves.

Kassadin

TotalJerkAug 15, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Exotic Tuna Can,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3d1Ez4lE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-15T00:21:51.128+0000)

anti-mage that gets beaten by mages themselves

Does this shit end up happening in every MOBA?

warpenguin555Aug 15, 201514 votes

i counter him with baking soda XD

Vellich0rAug 15, 20153 votes

Baking soda pantheon

SaiannaAug 15, 201512 votes

No.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no and NO!

Veigar is supposed to be anti-mage. He should be by far more effective dealing with mages than other champions. That's how it currently works. More AP enemy has, the bigger pain he recieves.

Don't remove his identity just so it's easier advence in ranked ladders. Instead enforce his theme. Help him become even better anti-mage.

I'm just Silver-whatever. But Veigar was my second bought champion. And i've played him non stop. I've seen all the changes. I don't want him to lose his identity.

EDIT: I'm aware this post will earn all the downvotes on Earth and Heaven, but i don't care.

Vellich0rAug 15, 201511 votes

He really isn't. He is the quintessential hyper-scaling burst mage.